Eagledad

I would enjoy that discussion, infact I was the presenter of the boy run session at WB 15 years ago. My question is really more how this WB course uses “adult led and youth led” and “working together across generations“ in the same discussion. Barry

I’m curious to learn how “adult led and youth led” tie in with “working together across generations“? Barry

Yep, you don’t here it much in that context anymore, but that is definition of “scouting is a safe place”. Barry

Bad example. Pinewood Derbies were, as I understand it, created as father/son activity. That is how my pack as a youth presented it, and that is how our pack presented it. Those are some good memories with my dad. Now, maybe dad went a little crazy, but it was still father son times. Of course as hour culture progressed, mothers, grandparents, aunts and uncles had to take up some slack. But the derbies, like most of the cub program, was designed around family. The rest of the argument is valid, but I read somewhere that the creation of lawnmower parenting is a lot simpler and complicated. Humans instinctively are driven to build their environment security for the tribe, or family. Even when the environment doesn't present a risk to human security, the instinct is still their and it drives the adults to busy themselves working toward building a better environment. And, human youths instinctively learn most of the behavior by watching role models until puberty. Instructional teaching is not the instinctive route for educating a youth. Left to instinct and time on their hands, human adults busy themselves working the problem and improving it. It's that simple, or complicated, depending on how you see it. We live in safe simple times, so our instinct to build a secure environment has been reduced to protecting our kids from the pain of loosing a pinewood derby. After several generations of living in a safe non-hostel environment, adults are just busy bodies looking to validate their instincts. Barry

From the parents or girls?

What's a camporee? Oh, you mean a district gathering with some funky theme for demonstrating unusual skills like starting fires without matches (Oh, and model rocket ignition button pushing competitions). AND, they are typically planned by the troop with an adult completing A WB TICKET ITEM. OK, hold me back. Barry

Yes, this was something that started between when I left the troop in the mid 70s and started again in the early 90s. What were they thinking? I remember getting very angry the first time I saw a beading at camporee. I then saw one at the Blue and Gold and a Crossover. I've not seen it, but I've heard of them at ECOHs. Shesh, can adults think of other ways to make scouting boring and drive the scouts out of the program! Now you've done it, you pushed a button. Barry

Hmm, I couldn't. A troop of Boy Scouts in our area camping once a year would be unheard of. It would be embarrassing. Barry

Well, on the plus side, girls get to push the button now. The WB beading is symbolic of the problem with today's adults. I have never understood adults wanting to do this. Barry

I see what you are saying, but at least around here, a very common family model is dad and boys are active in the BSA, while mom and the girls are active in the GSUSA. So, I'm not sure you can separate BSA folks from the GSUSA parents and leaders. And, at least around here, dads aren't near as welcome to assist the GSUSA activities as the moms are in the BSA. Barry

Let's not confuse personal experiences and observations with pettiness. How does the saying go; All Scouting is Local. My boy run mentor was a women who was the equivalent of the Scouting Executive in two different states. She quit GS and joined the BSA for her son because the GSUSA was run so badly in our area. I can assure you that what I pass along is experience, not unscoutlike pettyness. Barry

Camporees when I was a youth were different from the camporees of today. They were a very serious competition that ranked troops in the district. Horizon reminded me that we spent 4 saturdays in a row practicing skills for camporee. We were experts. Not just our patrol or troop, but all the patrols and troops in our area. Talk about patrol pride, carrying the patrol flag was a respected responsibility. Looking back, our finely honed skills were driven by the ambitions of the adults, and maybe older scouts. I imagine that was the case for all the troops. And we resented it to a small degree until we competed against the other patrols of the district. We were quite proud of ourselves as we competed against patrols of other troops. We were good, so where they. The difference between winners and losers were often just a few points or couple of seconds. But reflecting on this subject, I wonder if our adults back then would be considered lawnmowing adults. If so, it was pretty much all the adults in district. Of course there is a vast difference between how the adults then drove their ambitions back then compared to todays adults, I still retain most of the skills that were driven in me at age 11. And we never saw adults during the camporee competitions. It was a scout thing. As much as the adult wanted to watch, they stayed in their campsites. We were on our own. We were always on our own. Barry

While Mrs. Barry was a GS leaders, I talked to a lot of the families. It wasn't so much that girls wanted more camping, they were got tired of the cabin type of camping. At least in our area. I'm not sure tent camping would change the GSUSA all that much because while they saw tent camping as more romantic, it wasn't something they wanted every month. Now of course there are the few that would love it, but I didn't get the feeling that was a majority desire. The other part of the GSUSA that drove a few girls away is the independence the girls were given (I mean weren't given) in their activities. Adult run doesn't even begin to describe how the troops work. Girls are given so little opportunity for independent thought (much less decision making) that my wife was embarrassed to be associated with the organization. She said girls weren't ever allowed to leave their group at summer camp and they had to be led by their adult leaders everywhere. That more than anything drove my wife away. My wife believed if dads were allowed to assist leading the GS troops, the GSUSA would be more popular. Males are just more adapt with outdoor scouting. Her words, not mine. Me, I agree with what ever the politically correct members on this forum feel at the moment. Barry

Yep, and I’ve seen it protested as adding requirements more than once. That’s why I said that even the most passionate “adding requirements” gate keeper will find themselves being accused. Barry

Maybe it's all in how we explain it, but adding requirements wasn't a big discussion when I was a trainer. Discipline and uniforms seem to be the long discussions. Boy run had it's own discussion. It just seems odd to me that adding requirements has become hot. I was curious if the timing had something to do with a fear for the girls and their race to be Eagle. Barry

I've been seeing a few posters squeezing in "no adding requirements" to their posts on subjects that have nothing to do with advancement. Is there something going on in this generation of troops that has led to these concerns? I remember the phrase was kind of trendy about 20 years ago with the large influx of new scouters, but then faded off as units gained experience and went on about their business. We saw a post now and then of abuse, but not so much of just throwing it out there on nonrelated subjects as I'm are seeing now. What have I missed in the last 5 years that has changed? Just an aside; As the scouters learned 20 years, not requesting something of a scout during the advancement related part of his scouting experience is next to impossible. Some troops add attendance requirements, some ask about skills experience. Some even say that wearing the uniform or repeating the Oath or Law at the BOR (I've even heard EBOR) is adding requirements. What I'm saying is that all of us are likely guilty of asking (adding) something of the scout that isn't strait out of the book. It's just a matter of how far we go with our hypocrisy, but if someone wants to leverage a protest, you may find yourself awkwardly defending your request. Barry

Welcome back Pack. Barry

Where did you get this stuff? I would have thought a post-modern nomad just meant the Airstream trailer was replaced with a teardrop camper trailer. Barry

Thanks because post-modern nomad sounds so much better. Barry

Hmm, ok. Barry

What a strange post, Horizon. I understand you to say, "Don't do for your kids what they can do for themselves, but don't let them do to much for themselves because it may be to much"? This texting generation is a challenge for me. Barry

Woo there mac. I'm sure you are right, but that means things changed. Educate us, how do you know all volunteers are checked? Are you part of the group that does the checking? Barry

In the design, the CC is the Gate Keeper of the program. The CC should be the go to expert of the program vision. Most people naturally give the SM that role because they have to make it work at the ground level. But the more stable longer running programs are maintained by the CC who maintains the leadership quality of the program. I used to push all troops to send their CCs to Scoutmaster Specific Course so the CCs would have a better understanding of the troop program. But only 1 in 10 showed up. I don't blame them, it is a long dry course. However, how can the CC recruit if they don't understand the adult roles of the program. Most units fill the CC position with someone willing to give the time. Qualified scouters are rarely recruited because nobody takes on the task of finding one. It's the CO's responsibility to find the CC, but usually the task is led by the UC. And typically the UC doesn't know the families or the qualities of the troops membership. So, along with all the other great advice, go to the SM Specific course, or at the very least, get and read the SM Manual. You will be amazed how much you can help the program just by understanding goals and mechanics of the operation. Barry

Yep! Adults prefer order. Actually, Scouts do to, but they haven’t had enough life experiences to create order as fast as the adults. And the adults don’t understand that the patrol experience is developing the skills for creating order. The more room Scouts are allowed for chaos, the faster they learn how to make order. The Troop is real life scaled down to a boys size. Barry

A district is only as good the leader. The leader could be the District Chairman, District Commissioner, or even the DE. But you will find the better Districts hand recruit the District positions. Hand recruiting is an art form in of itself. It requires some research to find specific talents to fit specific needs, and then a warm conveniencing personality for inviting new members to join the team. The weaker Districts do something closer to filling in slots with warm bodies. One warm body nearly destroyed our Cub recruiting that took several years to rebuild. I was most applaud by the instructor teaching Woods Tools in Cocomax’s post. The only lesson she gave the participants was her fear of using the tools. Scouts have been using axes safely for around 100 years. The instructor taught them how to use it to its least intended design. She should not have been asked to teach that subject. Nothing can turn off new leaders to training faster than a terrible presenter. The training committee is the least respected for the weight of its importance. The better teaching districts search professionals and experienced presenters with the skills to teach interesting and enjoyable courses. Those of us who taught the SM Specific course in the early days understand the importance of turning challenging (extremely boring) course material into interesting and informative instruction. We brought in a college professor and professional course presenter to help us design a course model for that material. The district is still using it 18 years later. Cocomax knows his subject well, but how much are we risking by not learning more about is presentation skills? Personally, I would be interviewing him for a Unit Commissioner. I like style on the forum. Barry