Eagledad

This is a good analogy for a new troop, but not an older troop where the older scouts are the main role models for the program. The measure of quality of a troop program is best measured by the performance of the older scouts. Since they are the role models of all the scouts, the whole program is a reflection of them. This is not a big deal with adults who understand they must change their style of guiding the program as the troop culture matures in growth. But my observation is that the majority of the troops don't recognize their need to change (or don't know how), leaving their program to muddle. Older scouts have the maturity and intellect of young adults who need young adult challenges to continue their growth in the program. While the fun of adventure is the draw to scouting, it's the satisfaction of personal growth that keeps young adult scouts in the program. This is not to say National doesn't say anything about the need to change, they hint on it here and there, but there isn't really any good guidance in showing adults when and how they need to change the adult side of the program as the scouts mature in their side of the program. And maybe that is an aspect of scouting that is hard to grasp, much less teach. Wisdom is knowledge that has been hardened by humility. Maybe we don't teach the action of humility very well. Barry

Personally I feel the new generation of adults who don't have a scouting experience is more challenging than the G2SS rule. As you said, if the adults get it, they will make it work. But with a larger influx of adults that don't get it, the trend will go the other way. Of course that is all based on my theory of the new influx of inexperienced adults. We will see. Barry

The Scoutmaster's Handbook explains these concepts in some detail. What the BSA doesn't do well is guide the adults in how to balance the concepts. The number one cause of older scouts leaving the troop is their program hasn't matured beyond developing First Class advancement skills (advancement). Scouts spend the first two years of their scouting experience learning the skills, then the next two years teaching the skills. The reason the troop is stuck in the mud is the adults haven't learned how to back off as scout mature with experience. Backing off and giving scouts more responsibilities to challenge their maturity is a hard skill to develop if the adults aren't conscious to the concept. I used to teach the adults to push the edge of their comfort with scout independence so that they don't become obstacles to scout growth. Barry

I know it's my faith, but you are there for a reason. God bless you. Reading about your gift, I reflected at a time when a scout came to a meeting late and out of uniform. We leave the uniform requirements and choices up to the scouts, but this was an unusual occurrence with the scout. So I asked him how things were going. He confessed (blurted out) that his parents just dropped him off from announcing they were getting a divorce. I knew from other life experiences that divorce ranks way up there when it comes to shock. I didn't know what to say, but I felt that he wasn't ready to join his patrol yet. So we went outside and sat on the curb while he talked. If your in this scouting stuff very long, you find that some of it is very hard. I'm so grateful for the arronisoutside's who can work the hard stuff. Barry

Ah! Thanks. Humanity is saved. Barry

While walking through camp on a beautiful Saturday morning, a scout yelled at me asking if the rinse water for KP was supposed to be hot or cold. Before I had time to respond, he had already turned around toward his tent yelling in the same loud tone, "I know, get the Scout Handbook". I must admit, I have been concerned that technology is robbing us of opportunities to develop character. A free digital Scout Handbook? That can't be good. Barry

Hmm, very philosophical. I'm not sure I agree or disagree, but we all grow in our experiences with others. We'll see what you think next year. Still, life has a way of making us hurry up and wait. Biblically, patience is a virtue, and a show of love. If your scouts know your heart, they are better for the wait. This has been and interesting discussion because posters have been all over the field describing why the scoutmaster is wrong. He added an extra requirement. Really? As I've pointed out, we all add requirements in our own way. Are we all bad people? The SM is making the scout wait. OK, but life happens to all of us and more often than we realize, we can't jump at a moments notice for each and every request by a scout. Is there really harm in waiting. The SM is simply putting himself before the scout. He is not modeling the oath or law. He wants what he wants and is making the scouts dance to his tune (Sorry, my daughter just had a son and I find myself blurting out grandpa-isms). The SM is modeling selfishness. Or more to the Oath and Law, he is not doing his best to help other people, and he is not being trustworthy. His honor has lost integrity. Can the SM save himself? We are all human and I'm on record saying that humility is the greatest character trait an scouter can teach a scout. Can someone give the SM a chance to teach. Barry

Also, in the "Thinking out of the Box" part, forget about the standard den plan. One Den met twice a month for 1.5 hours. One den met at church on Sundays. Don't let the program restrict a solution. There are work arounds for just about everything, you just haven't thought of them yet. Barry

If I had a dime for every....... Let me just warn you that the real problem is on the other side of the hill, WEBELOS. As I've said, I've worked this issue many times and my first point is that each situation is different because the complexities of the adults involved are different. So, you have to be creative. And remember, you aren't just looking for a Bear leader, you are looking for a Webelos program leader. Do you have another Den of Bears. How solid is that den? Are their any adults over there to consider? Consider combining Dens. The logistics are more difficult, but you can pull more parents in to help. One of our Webelos leaders who took over two dens in the same situation assigned each parent to lead one activity pin. He also had two assistance to help in the meetings. The Den meetings were split into two 20 minute exercises. then each group switched exercises. That den only met twice a month for 1 hour and 30 minutes. We have also reorganized whole grades to recreate new dens. As I said, you have to get creative. I have done a parents meeting to explain the dire situation and ask for help. But, you need to have some ideas to drive that meeting or Nothing will happen. It's one thing to be asked to take over a den. It is something different to be directed to pick only one exercise to lead on some date in the future. Remember, the number one cause of scouts leaving the program is a boring program. So, your challenge is not just a matter of finding a warm body, but creating a plan for a fun program through Webelos II. How far have I gone on this: I once made a deal with 16 families that if they would lead two Bear dens for a year, I would quit the CM job and take over as their Webelos den. Twelve of those Sixteen Scouts earned Eagle. Fourteen of the sixteen aged out at 18. It was a team effort for all 16 families. I know of another pack where the parents ran all the meetings, but nobody was a den leader. I honestly don't know how they did it, but that pack handed crossed over 12 Webelos into our troop. I talked to their parents, and they were passionate to get their sons into the troop program, so they made it work. We can help here, but you need to get a better feel for the parents. What are they willing to give to make this work for the next three years? Then work from there. Barry

What is your opinion of it? Good, bad, ugly. (need a Clint Eastwood music emoji here) Barry

Your son really needs to handle this if the program will allow him. Is there a Senior Patrol Leader he could talk to? That is the traditional ladder of communication. He wouldn't be stepping on any toes by talking to the SPL. The SPL might be able to help or even get help from the SM. Barry

Shesh, I just wanted to be the king of the BSA. You want to be king of the WHOLE WORLD! If I were king of the WHOLE WORLD, everybody would have a Harley. And an Eagle. Barry

The BOR lost it's meaning over the years when the adults took it over. National wants accountability, but they don't want risking abuse during retesting, which was the cause of taking it from the scouts in the first place. Still, there needs to be a program check somewhere in the process, so this is what they came up with. If I were king, I would require both the Scout and his parents get a BOR. Scouts aren't going to spill their guts to a bunch of adult strangers, but they do to their parents. The parents will fill in blanks and add a little of their own opinion. Barry

We tried an experiment where we included a senior scout in the board. It made all the difference in the world getting the young scouts comfortable. Barry

Our council has had scouts protest in the EBOR one way or another. I know of only one scout that didn't pass, but that was at his request. He wanted to use failing to highlight his passion for his protest (I don't remember what his protest was). He made it easy for the board and got what he wanted. I always wondered what his parent thought. There was a time, I'm told, that Eagle Scout candidates had to plead their case to a local judge instead of a BOR. I like that because the intent was for the scout to prove himself in understanding the importance of making moral decisions. Barry

Can anything of importance be gained from an extreme nervous scout? Let's not look for reasons for not learning about a scouts understanding and experience of the program. It's better to just have compassion for being nervous. Barry

You don't think so? Hmm, and what if the scout refuses to recite the oath or law during his BOR. Pass, fail? What if the BOR (or EBOR) decide to start the review with the Pledge of Allegiance and the scout refuses? Sound silly! Excepting for the the Pledge of Allegiance, I have seen these examples more than once. I don't ever remember hearing the phrase "adding requirements" while I was a scout. I do remember being asked to demonstrate a knot or two and show how to make a splint using my neckerchief. Hmm, was I abused! No matter what side we are on with Adding Requirements, I believe the adults have taken this horrible action so out of context that they have lost the perspective in the big picture of developing citizens of character and leaders of integrity. I admit seeing the "adding requirements" used so much over the past few years with the intent to force power over someone that hearing the phrase makes me sick anytime I hear now. My example points out that any person using the phrase becomes an instant hypocrite because every adult has some personal expectation of the scouts that isn't directly prohibited in the manuals. If adults can't find a moral wrong for making request of the scouts, then maybe they should evaluate why they are personally offended. If the adult's request is for the purpose to achieve a personal objective (such as requiring Older Scouts to attend all SM Conferences on camp outs to force more older scouts to camp outs), then state why it's wrong without the cover of "adding requirements." Barry

We had a scout the same as your scout, MattR. He droves us crazy mouthing off to adults and teasing other Scouts. Some today would his antics bullying, but they weren’t personal, more of just burning energy. Anyway, when he went through puberty, he became a poster boy for scouting. It really wasn’t anything we did, Mother Nature gets the credit for that one. That was 18 years ago. His dad is my neighbor now, so I get to him and his two daughters often. As for WB, at least from the 60s, it wasn’t a course intended to teach boy run. The course was designed to teach SMs additional mentoring and teaching skills. It was designed for experienced Scoutmasters. So, it was never intended to help adults understand boy run better. I’ve been involved in several courses and classes over the years that put adults in patrol settings during their training. But I’ve concluded that adults with life experiences in patrol settings can’t have the same experiences of growth as young men without those same life experiences. Also the expectations are different; Scouts are in it for fun and adventure. Adults are in it to learn and experience the patrol life. Those are two very different motivations for being in a patrol. I can’t ever recall an adult who stood up and yelled, “eureka! I get it now.” I believe the best way to teach adults boy run Patrol Method from the perspective of the scout is to observe Scouts in Patrols. Whether they observe a JLT course or a patrol in their troop with no personal or emotional attachments, they can observe the struggle of Scouts making tough decisions and growing from those decisions. I have observed several adults see the lightbulb turn on at both our troop and council level JLT courses. They were moms in most cases. That doesn’t mean they turned into good leaders, but they had a sudden respect and trust of the boy run program. Give me that much, and I can teach the rest. Barry

Good post. Our troop also calls it servant leadership. I also used the Army definition in my training material and in our JLT courses. Barry

I’d have to go back to my notes, so I can’t comment on my memory (really lack there of) specifically. Seems I recall that “boy run” was only mentioned once in the SM Handbook. I’ve created courses specifically to teach boy run. I start with the Scouting Mission and Vision, then Aims and Methods. Methods are the adults primary objectives using the tools of the Methods, which are totally the Scouts responsibility. Then I work into the Method of Patrol Method and Boy Run. I found that most adults don’t understand what actions by Scouts are boy run. And even more difficult is the idea of mistakes being a positive learning opportunity. Our nature as parents is preventing mistakes, so scouters don’t even realize they are preventing boy run. One example I use is how adults react to how a scout is dressed. Do they feel a scout out of uniform is wrong? Why? The adults responsibility is Character, Fitness, and Citizenship. Is the scout failing in any of those areas? Good performance of the 3 Aims leads to go performance of the BSA Mission and Vision. The challenge is turning adults from their expectations of the 8 Methods and focus on always improving performance of the 3 Aims. Of course the SM might need to give some help with performing the 8 Methods at the beginning, but it’s more to get the Scouts started torward the 3 Aims. The Scouts have plenty of guidance from the handbooks for the 8 Methods, so adults really don’t need to get involved. Instead, they should focus on measuring the Scouts decisions against the 3 Aims. When the adults give the Scouts the independence to do the 8 Methods without adult input or interference, the troop is boy run. Of course giving the scout total autonomy with the decisions in the 8 Methods is almost impossible. We adults are who we are and can’t help ourselves stepping in (intruding) now and then. We have to develop fhose skills just like the Scouts developing their decision making skills. But understanding the roles and responsibilities of a boy run program is 90% of the battle. The SM Handbook does (or did) a terrible job getting adults to that understanding. Ironically, the SPL Handbook and PL Handbook combined do a better in helping both the Scouts and adults understand their roles in a boy run program. That is why I would request participants in my classes bring those Handbooks. The SM Handbook makes for a great sleeping pill, but the SPL and PL Handbooks are easy to read in an hours time. And, the Scouts and SM can use them together. Barry

We had a scout with similar concerns. I’m not sure if he was autistic, but he was certainly quirky. Once he learned he could skip the ECOH, he took off. But he kept it very quiet. None of the scouts and only a couple of adults knew he earned it. The SM was invited to a small family only reception at their home. Barry

I’m not sure who you are speaking about, but expressing an opinion is not dismissing or talking down. The WB course started by Badon Powell has no resemblance to the present day WB course in its design intent or syllabus. It’s has a whole different purpose that includes the Cub program. It so different that I’m surprised they kept WB as the course name. And National hasn’t given the support for Bill Hillcourts patrol method for at least 30 years. The SM Handbook implies patrol method should be used and provides a basic structure, but National hasn’t shown support with documentation content or training for patrol method as the primary method torward character development for a long time. Advance gets a lot more attention for direction than scouts learning from the decisions. Which is why it’s the 2nd most discussed method behind advancement. And, we have earned the right to speak about our experiences in the program. If it’s true National has decided to make membership changes to save the BSA instead of fixing what is broke, it’s not like either of our opinions matter. Barry

Every troop believes they empower youth to lead. Where National has failed in the past courses (1990 thru 2008) is identifying the differences between units. Or even worse, expections of the program. Im not sure they know or care of the differences. So long as units work with in the G2SS and YP, they are satisfied. But, there isn’t much guidance or definition for those of us in the weeds working to get the most of boy run or Patrol Method. That’s why we see extreme programs at each end of the boy run patrol Method spectrum. Barry

So, boy run is an example application for the subject of generations working together. That sounds about right, boy run wasn’t given much more than honorable mention in the SM Handbook. Even the old WB course struggled with it, which was a direct troop simulation. Barry