Eagledad

Is this an example of girls taking boy out of boy scouting? We've had discussions under the theme of keeping the program fun for the boys, instead of the adults. I remember one discussion where the CM asked if he should keep singing the scouts' favorite song, "Greasy Grimy Gofer guts" at the pack meetings. SM's struggle with the same questions of their scouts as well. Blood Circle has been around since at least the 60s. Barry

Well said. Character is choosing moral actions over emotional desire. Barry

Yep, but it's not hazing. Barry

It's time National change the name of the organization to Scouts of America (SA). That would clearly define the difference between the traditional organization of the past and new (progressive?) organization of tomorrow. In fact, I think the change would open National to more opportunities with less resistance from conditional scouters. Then I wouldn't need to defend the changes of the organization of which I gave so much of life. "Oh, no no, I was in the BSA, not the SA", "My son earned his Eagle in the BSA, not the SA". Barry

Not specifically, no. But the Scout Oath says "On my honor I will do my best to do my duty to God and my country and to obey the Scout Law." The BSA mission statement says "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. NJ, you can interpret moral code however want. Your god, my God, whose god? The BSA seems to at the very least reference morality with higher power in the same objective of preparing young young people for life. Oh sure, a lawyer can find loop holes if that's what it takes to be part of the group. But I think your reasoning (defense) of higher power and morality only make understanding harder, not clearer. It guess morality really is accountability of our actions toward others. While most believers actions are accountable to god, you believe your actions are only accountable to you. Ironically, nobody directed a specific source of morality in this thread, not even from a higher authority. But once morality was mentioned, many here felt cornered or judged. Out of respect, no moral references were given. But I think, while you protest using a higher authority for judgement, most feel higher authority is the law. And they don't like it for this discussion. I'll be honest, I didn't expect this discussion to go this deep. Barry

Ah, I see what you are saying, the 10 Commandments were written by the finger of, well unicorns. Hmm, OK Merlyn, I'm curious, do feel you present an intellectual point of view? Thanks for the visit, but we must move on. Bary

It's not just the one-on-one experience it's all the decisions and actions the scout has to initiate just to get to the counselor. The growth from the one on one with the counselor is just a bonus. Sure, of course. And for two reasons: One is to give scouts more opportunities for personal growth. The other is show unit leaders how they can also give scouts more opportunities for personal growth. I can't say it enough, units will drive their programs to mimic training and district level activities. Quality of the unit program is only as good as the quality of the district. It shouldn't be that way, but it is. Barry

How do you know it's bad? Or course God does, read the Bible. It's hasn't changed. Religion is made by man. Man lets emotion rule and changes religion. But we only know that because God doesn't change. No elves in Bible. You can go check right now. Or tomorrow if you like because it doesn't change. Barry

The problem is the motivation of raising numbers and instead of adding opportunities for growth. When a scout follows the guidelines of the MB process, he is required to communicate with several adults before he even meets the counselor. He has to inquire of details and record some of the details on paperwork that has to be submitted to another adult for approval. All those actions require scouts to make decisions and process information. MB courses and summer camp take almost all of that away from the scout. To makes it worse, our district requires scouts to attend the MB College all day for 8 hours. So even if the scout wanted to take one class, he was stuck for eight hours. I found that appalling and complained. The reasoning is the staff didn't want to be responsible for tracking scouts coming and going. Once in their are in until time is up and all could leave. MC Colleges and similar programs take the character growth out of the advancement process. They can be made to encourage character growth by following the BSA advancement guidelines, but most don't do it because scout growth isn't the motivation. Change the motivation and these programs will improve the quality of learning. By the way, I did that and was told to go away. Barry

You really need to volunteer at the district level to understand what seems so simple. It's a life changing experience. Districts are manned by volunteers of all ages, experiences, and skills. Or lack there of. If anything, Council needs to give more direction to the district training program. But even then, the council training committee is led by volunteers. And, while Council has the professionals to encourage quality of the process, Council level quality is subjective to Council Leadership philosophy. I'm not saying you are wrong, I'm just pointing out the challenge of the task. From my experience, if you believe in change at the higher level, you need to get proactive at the higher level. If opportunity is calling, then maybe it's the right thing. Barry

How did you know slavery is bad? Is there not one good act by man? How would you know? How could the hideously flawed man even conceive right from wrong without a perfect timeless measuring stick. Knowing right from wrong is proof of God because only God is timeless and perfect. How else would even the atheist know slavery is wrong. "Worthless" is an emotional adjective. An opinion without base or definition. Emotion is the flawed mans moral response to life. Emotion is fickle and measured only in the moment. What felt good yesterday feels bad today. Because God's morality is timeless and consistent, even an emotional atheist can know right from wrong. Barry

All depends on how MB Colleges and Advancecamps are used. If the Scouts used the programs as an additional resource for their personal advancement, great. But if they are used as planned part of the troop advancement program, then it can cause problems. Our troop never sent a group, we gave the information to the Scouts and left it up to them. Also, District and Council programs that cut corners or don’t follow the published policies set a bad example for troop programs. Our MB College doesn’t ask the scout to get a blue card or SM signature before meeting the MB Counselor. We found that 50% of the troops in our district didn’t even know the scout is supposed to contact the counselor to discuss the details of the meetings or that the SM signs the blue card (white card in our Council) before the scout meets the counselor. This all traced back to our MB College and summer camp. We readjusted the misunderstanding in training. Barry

Merlyn, we’ve discussed this before, remember? God is perfect, it’s man that messes up . That’s why He sent us a Savior. But, how do you know your fossils weren’t slaves? Barry

Ok, that wasn’t the question. But let’s be careful, 30 is reasonable size troop program for doing advancement within the program. Many of us have led programs of around 30 Scouts without having to “wing it”, as you say. What I asked and was really leading to is, did your troop learn anything to improve your troop program. I don’t think a single troop that improved their program didn’t learn some of the improvements from outside troop activities. Barry

I’m not judging your troops choice to experiment with Advancecamp, on the contrary, I applaud the effort to look for quality program activities. That being said, what can camp provide that your troop can’t? Could this be a learning experience? Barry

Thanks for your well thought out post vol_scouter, it is the discussion I extended. I agree that this dilemma should be left up to experts. But how many parents will provide that opinion to their Scouts unit? How many scout leaders want to know. Several here insist the parents shouldn’t even be contacted if the scout request it. Doesn’t that suggest the seriousness of needing expert guidance in of itself? I can’t tell you the many frustrations of working with Scouts whose parents didn’t explain the son’s medical condition because they didn’t want him to be treated special, or were embarrassed to tell us. But these Scouts were treated special anyway because their behavior was demanded of normal everyday volunteers who struggle to be a good scouter. And what about parents that don’t seek expert opinion because for reasons of hoping their child is going through a phase. Or even worse, they don’t care and are just use the unit to babysit and give them a break. We’ve had all these experiences. And have been threatened with litigation when we questioned and requested help with their sons behavior. What if the scout insist he should be called Superman. What is the scouter suppose to do? What if he insists his parents will cause him harm? Does the volunteer need some expert help? What if the scout uses threatening language and insist the volunteers not call his parents. That happened about 25 years ago. Do you not see how these situations are related? This is such a complicated subject and has so much room for harming the child that volunteers shouldn’t be confronted with the risk. This post gives me hope and is extreme discouragement at the same time. I’m glad folks here consider god as the source of morality. However, I’m disappointed that many don’t see morality in this situation or discussion. Back in the day when the moderators were more lenient with discussions, we had a pretty good discussion about the source of morality. In short, a few posters insisted that atheists can have morals that don’t come from god. I don’t personally agree, but with respect to nonbelievers and whoever else, I presented my opinion pragmatically, so as not to exclude anyone’s moral perspective. I wasn’t looking or expecting a discussion of morality. I must say I was shocked with the references to god and government laws. As I said, I was being respectful to all in saying this is a moral matter that we are discussing and not referencing any moral source. I was honestly shocked by the suggestion of my morality resource. I suggested none because I was open all readers useing whatever source they want. I assumed that “Do no harm” fit in everyones morals. Silly me, maybe I’m wrong. It appears to me now that many folks here aren’t Looking at this subject from a moral perspective, or they don’t want to. Can we really discuss a “do no harm” aspect of this subject without morality? I don’t think I can. I believe EVERY decision we make has a moral intention and consequence. Maybe I’m starting to understand why folks are accepting of doing what’s easy. As for what the scriptures say about this subject, the Bible says we are to raise our children in the way of God. And it’s clear of what happens if we don’t. Barry

Legal claim? Where do you get that? I think you need to start with the posted article and stay within the context that if experts are getting it wrong and putting these kids in harms way, a youth organization should certainly prevent volunteers from contributing to putting kids in harms way. Now, if you want to use state and federal laws to define your moral guidance on the matter, OK. But that certainly wasn't where that tone of the discussion started. You can certainly use that moral definition in the discussion, but don't expect me to understand it because is a little out there for me. So, whose morals? Those who would not want to do more harm to a youth. Barry

Misrepresent? The discussion was in the context of personal morality, you moved into the context of state laws. Barry

Do no harm. Barry

Ah! Government morality as the humanistic guideline. I'm not sure even atheist would agree. Barry

Hmm, 10 trees? You are right, but I'm speaking for the very beginners. And mainly the ones who are like deer in the headlights. Training I've learned is either too much or too little. I believe courses titled: "First day of Den Leader", First Pack meeting", "First Day of a campout", First day of.....", would be better classes because while they are very basic in direction, they provide enough skills to get them through the first day. As I said, this worked very well with our PLC, especially the Patrol Leaders. Get through the first meeting, or first camp out, and it's down hill from there. The hard part for new troop with new adults are the scout skills. So, take them one at a time for immediate needs. Do the first three Troop meetings learning to set up tents, starting cooking stoves and building fires. That will get the troop to the first morning of their camp out where they spend the day learning to cook and kp; cooking lessons in the morning and kp after lunch. Let the scouts have a couple hours free time before they practice cooking for dinner. They practice building a fire for the troop campfire and then send the scouts to their patrol campsite to enjoy the moon and stars. Tell them they can start a patrol campfire if they want. Simple easy basic. Get up Sunday, practice cooking some eggs and doing KP from what was learned yesterday. Then a simple easy 5 minute Sunday service. Spend and hour on skills like two basic practical knots to hold up a dinning fly. Another hour of a fun capture the flag game, then practice breaking camp. Breaking camp is everyone's hardest skill of the weekend. That is where the adult practice patience. Every meeting and campout grows from there. If the scouts see the value of the skills they are learning simply by the hands on application, they will have fun and look forward to the next one. Once the meetings and camp outs become just skills teaching, then keeping them interested is more challenging. But, take one simple step at a time as the confidence grows. I hate tree identification. Is that a left brain or right brain thing? Barry

Even atheist say they are moral. I'm talking about contributing to possible child abuse, so where does that fit in to your question? Barry

Yes, yes, all very practical, but is it moral? We will find out with this next generation of adults. Communities are supposed to stop kids from jumping off cliffs, not encourage just let them go. But I understand the pop culture power of persuasion. Or is that power of intimidation? Barry

My observations are very much the same, which is refreshing. The experience I brought with me from my youth is the "experimental" frame of mind that you are talking about. That is simply the way our troop ran the patrol method. As an example, we completely changed our Tiger program from the format given by National. We were loosing 80% of our Tigers, so we identified what they didn't like and change those parts of the program. Our drop rate was less than 10 percent after the changes. We changed our Webelos hats from the BSA issue to the military camo booney hats. They were much more durable for outdoors and covered the head better in the different weather environments. They were also very cool looking as well and one big reason the younger dens couldn't wait to get in Webelos. My sons and I are still wearing those hats. Adding to the experimenting part, our troop program pushed the edge of G2SS in areas like shooting sports and water sports. We tended to act first and ask questions later because we didn't know better. But I think where we excelled with experimenting was changing the program to fit our goals of building character and leaders using a boy run patrol method. We tried six different new scout programs before we settled on one that we felt gave the new scouts the most growth under boy run philosophy. If we didn't see the program producing growth, then we change that part of the program. And generally the change gave the scouts more authority and independence in their activities. For example, the adults camp site is typically a separate camp site at summer camp. Troops should be dynamic in their design because the culture matures as the scouts grow. If the adults don't change with the scouts maturity, then the older scouts get bored. I used a different term for experimenting in training, but the challenge for adults in building a quality program is understanding they can change the program to improve quality, and also seeing when the program needs to change to improve quality. I'm harping on the obvious again, but those are big challenges with adults who have never experienced scouting as a youth. Which is why the program may have to change to meet the needs of these adults. Can an adult give the space and freedom to a youth that they have never experienced themselves? Or maybe the better question is how do we train future scout leaders to give their scouts the space and freedom they may have never experienced in their youth? I developed a class for that very theme called Removing adults fears that get in the way of scout growth. But, I found adults were skeptical in that class even 20 years ago. It is certainly a challenge. Barry

I was reading the post from scouter on another discussion saying that Scouts deserve trained adults leaders. I am sure that is completely true, what scouts deserve are confidence adult leaders. When I became a scout leader in 1992, training wasn't required like today. If we went great, but if you didn't nobody came after us. Training back then basically gave additional guidelines to get leaders started. Looking back, I can see the program at the national level relied heavily on experienced scouters in the unit getting new scouters up to speed. After years of being trained, leading training, writing training courses and counseling scout leaders, I believe Scouts deserve confident leaders, not necessarily trained leaders. A confident leader has some direction and training doesn't always provide the confidence of direction. Without direction, adult leaders flail around. Over the years I learned exactly how to get a concerned, slightly scared new out-of-the-box den leader up to speed for their first den meeting. And that was pretty much giving them just enough information to get through their first meeting. More than that didn't seem to help the confidence level of new leaders. In fact too much information added to the anxiety. I eventually used that philosophy for the scouts in our PLC as well. New leaders come into their job looking into a dark cave. I trained Scoutmasters that all any person needs to make that first step into the dark is some light to keep from running into the walls of that cave. The light (confidence) gives the blind just enough vision to step forward. As they gain expereince, the gain more confidence to go farther into the darkness. Den leaders are easy because we just sat down and looked at their Den Leaders guide and went step by step. We talked a little about what boys the cub age like and how to settle them down (if they need settling down) when they get excited. Same thing with our Troop, we went from a 2 day JLT course after each PLC election to a 2 hour course of getting ready for the first meeting. We figured out what each member of the PLC needed to get through their first meeting and first camp out. Just the very basics and just enough to build the confidence to make a first step. Not that all the training we adults have to take isn't good training, but I learned that the training courses don't necessarily give adults what they need to be confident leaders. And what they really need are the very basic skills for that first time because the first time is 90 percent of everything they need to know, whatever their responsibilities. I believe the BSA is more challenged today than ever in training adults because there are fewer experienced adults in each unit than before. And, with the recent program changes, there will likely be more units without experienced adult leaders. I believe the program at a national level is going to have to rethink how to get the new adult leaders up to speed just like they did in 2000. And, the unit programs might need some changes as a result. I can't say what that will be, but I see a much different dynamic for adult leaders today than in 1992. I hope this forum can be a place where we can help get new scouters up to speed. I'm not sure past experiences of training are going to suffice with todays program, so maybe this can be a think tank for the future program. Barry