Eagledad

I don't know if this is true, but back when this training was ramping up 20 or so years ago, some posters on this and other forums wondered if the training material was as much a deterrent as it was training. In other words, it is meant to scare off predators considering the BSA as a source. Back then we only had to take the course every 2 or 3 years. Barry

Which goes to my response to Rememberschiff's parents' complaints about National requiring registration to get more money. If a parent wants to donate an hour but doesn't want to join as a leader, dropping the fee might make that decision a little easier. Barry

Don't know. If my memory serves me, National started requiring counselor registration in the mid 90s sometime. It wasn't a big deal because a fee wasn't required. Up until then, they general reasoning was MB counselors were not involved with scouting, but experts in the subject of the MB. Sources for counselors has changed a lot in the last 30 years. Barry

As a parent who gets asked for fees of just about everything involving our children, I could druther on and on. Instead, let's at least respect the struggle some scouters are having to deal with. Parents and volunteers are struggling through a lot of major changes recently. National doesn't have a reputation of using a shoehorn to warm volunteers into their new policies. Barry

Ah the condescending trigger words defense. Let's flip it back around; what about basing the uniform not required policy on limited family budgets? Bellyaching? Does National have a choice? Originally, MB Counselors weren't required to pay a fee for their registration. Barry

You bring up the major reason new troops struggle with a boy run program. Adults by their nature feel the need to constantly measure success, so when they don't know what success looks like, they grab the books. In most cases, the advancement check list. Then they start driving the program toward building a program of knocking off requirements on checklist because that's an easy measure of success. Problem with that is the goal of scouting is develop ethical and more decision makers, not rank patch collectors. I would suggest that your future leaders visit a few different troops to get a basic understanding of the program. VERY BASIC understanding. I once picked five troops to observe typical PLC meetings. All five had a completely different style. I took a few ideas and then developed our own style. Scoutmaster minutes and BORs are the same. Just a few visits to get an understanding. Then I would basically follow T2Eagle's suggestions while adding the purchase of the SPL and PL Handbooks to use those as your guide to running the program. They are very basic, but have just about everything a troop needs to function as a youth run program. Actually, give them to the scouts and let them use them to run the program, with you in the background throwing out a couple of suggestions, based from the handbooks. New troops have an opportunity to build a team relationship that established program struggle to develop, because the adults and scouts are starting on the same level of experience. That allows an opportunity for the adults and scouts to work together as a team. That is a big advantage because the scouts will feel they are part of the leadership from the beginning. That can sometimes take months or years with some units. finally, don't be afraid of change. A lot of troops develop habits that don't accomplish anything to scout growth. I once visited a troop with a tradition of breaking camp 9:00am Sunday morning so they could get the equipment unloaded at the CO church before the parking lot filled up for church service. The scouts ate Poptarts while folding up their tents and loading the trailer. Now where is the fun in that kind of program? I asked the leader, why don't you get back to your church at 1:00pm and do program all morning. Nobody had ever thought of that. Making that change shifted the program back to the scouts. Lots of good advice from a lot of good scouters here, so don't be afraid to ask questions. I know it's a burden talking about scouting stuff, but we seem to find the will. Barry

Great response. I couldn't have said it better. Adults are good at coming up with pragmatic reasons for taking the fun out of scouting. Barry

A Mission Statement and Plan of Action are two different things. Typically the Plan of Action is the "how-to" for the Mission Statement. Your appear to have a good plan that is ready to move forward with action items. But I'm not clear why you want a Mission Statement. Are the BSA and Mission and Vision Statements not enough? I'm not suggesting anything, just trying to understand what you are asking for. Barry

Your husband is going to attend all the scouting activities with your son? Your sons success in situations like these is very dependent on his parent's actions with the troop. These things are complicated and there are so many variables that we can only advise so much. I had one scout with a challenging behavior where most of the concerns about him came from other parents, not the scouts or scout leaders. I don't know where you husband fits in this dilemma, but I feel like you are going to have to get more involved. I hope I'm wrong. I know you have your hands full with the GS Troop. I've been where your SM is at. There are so many variables to find balance. Barry

That's good stuff. I might say that scouts become good decision makers by learning how to take responsibility for their bad decisions. This subject is not about the scouts, it's about the scouters. I have personal experience with the first scout, not the second. Ironically the 16 year old scout (my sons best friend since first grade) announced his situation to the troop at the end of a long day of his Eagle project. His parents showed up to support him, because that was probably the most difficult announcement of his life. That scout now has three kids all going to the same schools that he and my kids attended when they where their age. He has a masters degree in engineering and business. None of that really talks about his character, but without getting into long winded details, he set the high mark for taking responsibility of his bad decisions and is leading the life of an Eagle. I'm not going to suggest how all adults, much less Scoutmasters, should judge scouts when they make bad decisions. Maybe the problem with scouting today (and we talked about this many times on this forum) is we don't judge the other scouts enough in their early experiences to give respect. Did anyone ask the rank of the scout who helped the little old lady across the street? Is there honor in getting to 2nd class? I was taught in the early days (and experience has proven it) that only four percent of the population are natural leaders. Everyone else are natural followers. The average percentage of Eagles in the early days was about three percent of all scouts. Well doesn't that make sense? I have said that boys below age 13 aren't good leaders because they don't like it. But, there are those very few natural leaders that stuck out even at age 11. They are the 3 percent. The scout I mentioned above was not our best leader in the sense of taking charge and going forward. He was not our best SPL. He was not the troops best PL. He just didn't like being the guy in front of everyone else. But, he was a favorite to the young scouts because he had an abundance of patience and compassion. His friends held him in high respect because he was fair minded to his core. Adults held him in high esteem because he is even mannered, never loosing control and never backing off from a challenge. He was a very hard worker and seemed like a natural at everything. I called him Evinrude because he could push a canoe through the water like no one I had ever seen. All the adults liked him because he was that kid that we all wanted our kids to be like. Is he worthy of a good leader, or a really good follower? I honestly don't know, but I signed him off for his Eagle. Scouting is in the middle of big changes and I personally fear that the program is loosing it's foundation for existing. For all it's marketing of adventure, the primary reason for Scouting is character development. Plain and simple, at least for me. The only reason I hang around this forum anymore is to help the few scouters who want a values driven program. I want to help those scouters who want more for their scouts than just a camping experience and a badge. But it's not easy to be a moral judge of other parents' kids behavior. Sometimes we get it wrong. I confessed in my scoutmaster training classes that I personally did it wrong at least 50% of the time. If that is true, then how does the SM judge a scout to be a better moral and ethical decision maker? There is no easy answer; if we don't judge the scouts's decisions, then we aren't balanced mentors and our guidance is one-sided. If on the other hand we sometimes get it wrong, how does that work? How does one judge a scout with balance? How do we flawed adults hold the bar high enough to retain respect with outsiders looking in, and yet develop a decision maker who made a big mistake? There is no easy answer for me, I can only say that I had to work at being the best scoutmaster I could, one humble decision at a time. Barry

Focus on the first meeting, the first month and the first camp out. Everything will seem clearer after that. Start by focusing on the first meeting. Get the PL Handbook and SPL Handbook to plan the meeting. Basic meeting is Opening, Patrol Corners, Program and Closing. I typically ask the SM to play the part of the SPL (or PL if you wish) for the first meeting only to set an example and get the momentum started. Opening- SPL delegates scouts to run a very basic opening. Pledge, Oath, Law, Prayer, and quick Announcements. Patrol Corners - PL runs through a basic agenda of old business and new business. Since you don't have old business with your first meeting, your new business is announcing first camp out details; when, where, theme. Very basic. Program - Practice a skills for the camp out: setting up and taking down tents. Pretty much it for the first meeting. Game - Typically something that requires them to run and move around. Closing - retire the flag. A few announcements by the SPL, SM minute (practice this so you can get close to a minute) and dismissed. Of course the meeting will get more complex, but we are just trying to get the troop moving. Spend the next 2 or 3 meetings getting ready for the camp out; packing, food, clothing. Don't worry about advancement skills, they will come in time. Learn how to set up and break camp. Learn how to light a stove and set up washing tubs for KP. First camp out is basically the same thing. For program, teach skills they will need for camping and use those skills that weekend, like learning to start fires. Give the scouts the SPL and PL Handbooks and ask them to use them for the next meeting, camp out and other activities. Plan a planning meeting about three weeks in the future to plan the themes for the next three months of meetings and camping. Planning can get very complicated, so keep it simple, simple, simple and specific. Month two can be something like hiking and using the meetings to teach basic navigation, first-aid and proper hiking clothes. Then camp at a park where the scouts can do about a five mile hike with a lunch break in the middle. Simple program, but a lot for a new troop. Yet, it is very scouting. Make sure the troop meetings have at least 20 minutes of a FUN game. The campouts should have at least two hours of free time on Saturday. Don't rush Sunday, get up and cook a meal, church service (10 mins), an hour of advancement, a game, and break camp. Try to get home around or after 1:00 PM. Many troops hurry Sunday to get home early. I don't know way, but it hurrys the camp out and takes the fun out of Sunday. I advise new troops to elect the SPL and PL about every four months because it's a lot of work and burns out young scouts fast. Scouts this age don't enjoy leadership, so I let them do it only long enough to develop the program. I'm not a fan of cycling scouts through leadership for the experience because it is more often than not a negative experience. Leadership is for the maturity of older scouts. Many don't agree, but that is my experience. However, new troops don't have older scouts and need to develop a program for scouts to follow. The key is the adults taking up only enough of the slack to keep the scouts from burning out. And then stepping back as the scouts mature. Scouts will be mature by the next meeting and next camp out, so step back and let them do it. The adults aren't really leaders, they are mentors and guides. They should practice patience and waiting for the scouts to approach them. One way to understand that idea is for the adults is never to raise their sign up to quiet the scouts. Adults wait for the scouts to initiat the sign. If an adult has the floor for announcements or training and they need the scouts' attention, the adult asked the senior scout or leader to get the groups attention for the adult. That tends to remind the adults their place in a scout run troop. Ok, that is a lot to start. Barry

You missed camping other than monthly troop camp outs like: youth and adult leadership training, high adventure and OA work weekends. Matt is right, eventually the wife will set the hard limit. That’s when we learn the skill of delegating and stepping back. Oh, and don’t talk Scouting at the dinner table. Barry

Yes, that’s exactly what mean. I understand we are talking at the cub level in the one example, but if the adults can’t work with bad behavior at the Cub ages, they don’t have s chance at the troop ages. Barry

Patrol method is where Scouts grow from the practice of making ethical and moral decisions. Growth comes from values learned by applying the the Scout Law and Oath in their decisions and the results of their decisions. That only works if the Scouts are given the independence to fail. How will adults give the Scouts the independence to fail if they aren’t willing to accept failure as a requirement for learning? They can’t even decide if bad behavior should be reported. Bad behavior is an opportunity, not a dilemma. Barry

But, there is that discussion of adults trying to figure out if an 8 year old Cub Scout is bullying a new Girl Scout cub, and what to do about it. Should they report him to the Council? These adults are eventually going to be leaders in a boy run Patrol method troop program. Patrol method is supposed to be safe place where Scouts grow by experiencing the consequences of stepping outside of the Scout Law and Oath. How can a troop be a safe place if adults are debating whether or not to report the scout to Council. Please convince me the future of Patrol Method isn’t hopeless? Barry

I don’t know John, I think times have changed. Parents today don’t seem to trust other adults holding their kids accountable, just ask my high school teacher son. It goes both ways , teachers don’t trust parents, so they don’t contact parents with their sons and daughters personal struggles. Our kids are caught in the middle watching their role models and mentors looking for a safe space. We have created a hostile culture toward our youth. Barry

It comes down to local interpretation. I know scouts would have got credit for a troop summer camp in our council back when I was SM. Barry

Ah, NJ comes to mind. I forgot. Some theist define their morality along with atheist. Barry

You are saying atheist believe morality comes from God? Barry

I have consistently said in our discussions over the years that pragmatically, morality can only come from God because it never changes. All humans are born innately immoral. The difference between atheists and theists is atheists can claim any behavior as moral, while theist are held accountable to one morality from God. Atheist say slavery is immoral today, but they could say the opposite tomorrow and wouldn't be wrong because they are only accountable to ambitious emotional fickle man (the guy with the biggest stick, remember?). Theist are accountable to only one morality. Barry

Troops summer camps are a lot of fun, and a A LOT of work. Troops that run their own camps like them so much they plan them for several years. But the logistics can almost be overwhelming. Food alone requires a team to shop, transport and distribute to each patrol. The advancement team needs to decide on what they want to teach and start finding teachers and counselors to plan and develop their equipment list. A great start would be to find a WB logistics chairman (can't remember what they are called) because they have a very good system to get ready for something like this. I'm not trying to discourage your PLC, on the contrary, I believe it will bond your scouts and develop more scout growth than any other troop activity. But, if the PLC goes ahead with it, the troop needs to start planning NOW. Barry

A correction, my neighbors downs son is an Eagle. Barry

Lots of good advice. I also agree with talking to the SPL and other scouts. Our troop had several mentally handicapped scouts. Many of those scouts transferred from other programs that weren't as able to work with the challenges of these scouts. However, some of them had to eventually drop our troop because they weren't able to handle the challenge of a patrol method program. Our way of working with the scouts is starting with the parents. We would ask for their advice, as well as encourage them to participate. The parents of some of our handicapped scouts volunteered as leaders and were wonderful ASMs and committee members. My next door neighbor became the SM of the troop in his church so that he could work with his Downs son, who is not an Eagle. But as was said, not all troops are as welcoming to the challenge. We had several mentally handicapped scouts, including autism. One of the challenges of these handicap scouts is the differences in the severity of their handicaps. Each are unique and require different skills and methods for working with them. We worked close with the parents and I can say that our troop never asked a single family to pull their son out of the troop. But several families pulled their son out of the troop when they saw their struggles in the program. For example, one scout was so terrified of water that he had to drink out of a special glass. That scout came to every meeting for a year, but he could never participate in outdoor activities as a result of that one fear. The parents were very active, but they knew our program wasn't a good fit. That being said, I ran into that scout a few years ago while he was employee of a Target store. He pulled me aside and politely reminded me who he was because he was 15 years older. Then he thanked me for some of his fondest memories of his life. He thanked me, but it was his patrol that gave him those memories. I hope everything works out. Not just for your son, but for his patrol mates also. Scouting is about growth and many the patrol mates of our handicapped scouts grew immensely from the experience. Barry

Girls too? Ooh yuk!

Show the scout and his family what you are supposed to teach and ask their help to come up with ideas. He isn't the first or last handicap scout, your new ideas may help a lot of boys. Barry