Eagledad

There is definitely some irony in this response. Barry

So you have 11 Scouts and two patrols? You have one small patrol of experienced Scouts (sort of) and one small patrol of new Scouts? What you have is two completely different programs with a SM that doesn’t know how to run either. Of course the 2 smaller patrols isn’t the elephant in the room (SM with no experience), but I would personally start by mixing the two patrols together for one program. I think a small troop like yours is an ideal place for scouting. Actually perfect. Older Scouts run the program, which requires pulling the the younger Scouts along on adventures. It gives your more experienced Scouts a chance to show off some real scouting stuff. The problem is your troop isn’t doing adventures. Shake things up a bit; do a small hike at the next troop (patrol?) meeting. Show how to use the compus, stars, and gps. Stop at a local park and pull out the makings for s’mores from your backpack. Start a fire and enjoy the flaming marshmallows. Let the Scouts relax and laugh. This should be fun, so step back, watch and enjoy older Scouts and younger Scouts mixing it up a bit. i agree with the resources from the other posters, really good stuff. But I feel your SM is everwhelmed. I would call the DE or District Commissioner to find an old retired grey beard who would enjoy volunteering a little time. You don’t need him to lead, just support and build some confidence. Our troop came from your situation. Learning how to be a good scout leader is part of the fun. I made mistakes more than I did it right. But we had fun. fun has to start somewhere and I think it should be with adventures, not advancement. You can help, look for something, an opportunity, to take the Scouts somewhere fun. Anything, it doesn’t have to be outdoors. Call the SM and tell him you got some discount bowling tickets for Troop meeting night. It gives him a break and makes for a fun night. Then, everyone can re-evaluate how the meetings can change, at least a little, torward more fun stuff. I don’t know, just some quick thoughts. Barry

This was actually a major topic of discussion on the forums 20 years ago. And was also the reason National replaced the WB course in 2000 with the 21st Century WB. The previous course was an exact replica of an ideal troop program. Not to teach the ideal troop program, but just to provide an environment for its real purpose of teaching new leadership styles to experienced scouters. Today’s course barely resembles that course. It was designed for scouters who already had the basic skills of running a boy run program, kind of like the 14 year age requirement Scouts attending NYLT. I was told by the Council WB Chairman that even the course instructors lost site of the course objectives and started running it to teach troop program and scout skills. The cause of the problem was the flood of new adults without a scouting experience that came from the membership change allowing women leaders in the troop program. Many councils felt that WB was the best way to get the large influx of new scouters up to speed with the boy run program. The result was what cocomax describes, wood badgers going back and forcing the Scouts to duplicate the WB ideal Troop. Forcing the Scouts to run their patrols the way adults wanted them to do it was the exact opposite of boy run and was driving away older Scouts in large numbers. National reacted to the problem quickly and today’s WB closely resembles the new 21 Century course intended to fix the problem. But as cocomax points out, it’s still a problem. We asked two adults to leave our troop for the safety of our scouts during my 10 years as a scouter with the program. One of those adults joined our troop to change our troop program using the lessons she learned from the WB course that she attended while a Webelos den leader. Without getting into details of her frustration with our resistance to her ideas, she interrupted a Troop committee meeting shouting that she was being treated unfairly because she was a woman. Then she stormed out. Her accusation didn’t set well with the 6 females, 7 males, and female CC in the room. It’s probably not fair to blame WB for her behavior, but she bragged that WB lite her fire. Barry

I’m personally not a fan of internal packs for new Scouts because they haven’t got enough experience with backpacking style camping to pack an internal frame pack. Just about any old sleeping bag can be strapped to an external frame pack. Just about the time they learn how to pack, they are ready for a bigger pack. Barry

I'm with qwazse, scouts change a lot in the next three years, so until he can get enough experience to figure out what he wants, I wouldn't get in a hurry. Backpacks are even worse, they grow out of those things so fast. Our scouts started selling their pack (cheap) to newer scouts so they could go up to the next step, which is typically an internal frame packs. New scouts do better with externals. Unless you have the funds and just enjoy getting that kind of stuff. And hey, I understand. Mrs Barry (and CPA) is telling me one of the motorcycles has got to go. I'm not sure why. Barry

Wow, I've not heard my scouting experience put in the context of a half century. I gotta think about that, lots of mix emotions.

We'll just have to agree to disagree. I'm looking at this in the big picture (Nationally). Family Scouting is not only rapidly accelerating the decline of Patrol Method, it will be the dagger of it's finality. I can honestly say I didn't see it coming two years ago. Barry

You win, I give up. It's not the boys club anymore, it belongs to mom, dad and little sister. Patrol method is dead, outdoor social engineering is in. I know how long you have been in scouting WM because you have taken several of my posts out of context over the years. We need to start a discussion on new uniform styles. National needs to change the uniform away from Boy Scouts of America uniform to define a clear difference between the two programs. Barry

Welcome to family Scouting. Barry

Hmm, the BSA was caught in a scandal something like this 20 years ago with the Learning for Life program. The inflated numbers were significant, but I don't remember how much. I seemed to remember they got sued. Barry

Is that a camels nose I just tripped over? Barry

You guys have given me an idea of how to lighten my pack another 7 lbs. Thanks Barry

Our experience is the scouts after a year had a totally different view of what they really needed for camping than what the adults felt was required for the first camp out. If I were to do it again, I would start with equipment only needed for backpacking. That is where our troop ended up four years later anyway. We had several really nice well designed patrol camp boxes laying around that nobody except the adults used. Scouts hated them, so we ended up lending them to new troops. Barry

Probably not, but it depends on the adults. I remember my Webelos watching the scouts during a troop visit lash a flag pole together. It became pretty obvious the scouts didn't know their lashings. They struggled for about 15 minutes before the ASM jumped in and cussed them out, using some pretty rough language. The troop was taken off our top two list. The discussions can become pretty extreme on this forum and I can see the difficulty of new leader molding their reality into the idealistic world being described on the forum. No adults doesn't necessarily mean NO adults. But, putting scouts in an environment where they feel free to express themselves (and fail) without adult intervention is challenging. We call that a safe place. This forum likes to use the 100 yard separation rule between patrols and adults, to describe the idealistic independence intended for patrols. But it's not really so much about about the physical separation that is important as it is providing the atmosphere of independence for scouts to feel a sense of free thought. In truth, Patrol method is messy even in the best boy run programs and the chaos challenges the adults' patience. Patrol Method is more about adult reactions to scouts' decisions than the actual scouts' decisions. End of the world, no of course not. But two adults standing nearby stomping their feet to stay warm can be a lot more challenging. A Little side story on our Safe Place philosophy; because of low impact rules, camp sites for high adventure patrols are sometimes so small that tents are set up next to each other. As a result, we made a rule that what is said in the tent stays in the tent. However, after a few nights of young male adults telling stories with a language that would make a sailor blush (not the Marines of course), I once mentioned during breakfast that while we have the rule of what is said in a tent stays in a tent, parents (I used parents for more impact) are literally just on the other side of the wall of their tent. That helped a little, but not as much as you would think. Barry

Well, I'm not sure what we are disagreeing about. You set a trap to hold me accountable to my opinion. But it was an impossible trap because I was presenting acquired knowledge, not some quick argumentative theory. Acquired knowledge is very powerful and hard to counter without comparative knowledge. And maybe I have an unfair advantage, my profession involves acquiring experimental data for public safety. So, I know the difference. I've said before, I learned early in life that one has to balance education with life experiences to value both education and life experiences. How does one model moral principles without proving those principles in the experiences of real life? I guided our scouts in the same lesson application simply by pushing them into outdoor adventures while balancing their decisions with the Scout Law and Oath. Sounds simplistic, I know. But life is a mirror that exposes our true nature of character (or lack of it). Once we see who we are, and we learn who we want to be, we have a simple guideline to change. The character habits the scouts developed from those experiences are very real. Barry

I gave a clear answer. Life’s collection of knowledge is data, no matter how it was collected. You can take it or leave it of course just like all the experience data that posters provide on this forum. If not, then what would be the point of requesting information from experienced members on subjects like, Starting a new troop: budget items. Collected experience data isnt always noted, recorded, and stored away because who would expect some shortridge down the road of life challenging that knowledge to sway opinion against our integrity. After all, if a person has the knowledge gained from the experience of starting a new troop, why would that person expect that data to be challenged? Is it so really so hard to believe girls are different from boys? Barry

Call the DE or Committee Commissioner, explain the situation and ask if they know of a troop that can loan a couple of tents, stoves and cooking equipment. There may even be a Chartering Organization with a defunct troop looking to move their equipment. Barry

Sure. A family therapist visited our school system in 1992. Really good stuff. Barry

Don’t be silly. Who saves articles, publications, records lectures and videos over the years just to save proofs for shortridges 30 or 40 years in the future? Then there are life experiences of our children, after school group activities, church youth groups, youth sports, and so on. I of course don’t expect everyone to except my opinions and experiences, but I’m still expressing them. This is a forum. Barry

Lol, you must be a lawyer. As an engineer, I don’t see this as positive and negative, I see it as information to chart a course torward a goal. Or not. If the information proves the goal impossible, then either the goal must be changed or abandoned. If an adult is called a Boy Scout today because of his behavior, whether or not he was ever near a scout program, are they commenting on his camping skills or his social actions? Will being called a scout 20 years from now be a complement? What are your goals for the program? Barry

Nope, it’s not a new revelation. Data was acquired over years of life. Barry

Lol, all data is generalized and is usually the motivation (or not) for new concepts and changes. Generalized data is the difference between success and failure. Most Fortune 500 companies don’t make a move without the support of generalized data. Barry

The instinctive nature of prepubescent boys is big picture dreamers. Patrol method forces them to practice working details. The instinctive nature of prepubescent girls is details and micro organization. Organization part of Patrol method is easy for them. Add to that, girls will bring in more adults without a patrol method experience. Patrol method is a dying art. History supports my theory. Webelos III is inevitable, but the girls will have fun. Barry

Explorers and Crews are different because of puberty. The advantage of patrol method for boys growth is gone after age 14. My point is adults will make the program work to their desire no matter what the scouts get out of it. Those adults have been around for almost 100 years.

😂 Of course it will work. The two largest troops in our district are also the least boy run and most advancement driven adult run troops. Where there is an adult will, there is an adult way. Barry