Eagledad

Wow, with friends like this, who needs enemies. I’ve been active in scouting one way or another for almost 60:. In all those years, I have never seen AO show disrespect to the American Indian/idigenous/Native American culture. In fact OAs actions are typically respectful with the intention of showing honor. Now if the culture has changed how it looks at such things, fine, we change to continue showing respect. But done disparage the OA for living the scout law in their efforts. On the other hand, I’m not sure OA can get back to the honor and respect that the organization once had because our culture doesn’t like individualism that sets piers apart. OA is/was an honor program that recognized scouts who set themselves apart as outdoorsmen and servants. They used to be the go to experts of camping skills. And, they usually were humble in their service to others. The organization used to require a scout prove discipline and maturity of camping and serving. Now many troops want all their scout to get elected in to the organization no matter their experience or maturity. Seems there is no real desire for a true honor program in the BSA. Barry

Thank you for the wonderful post, mrjohns2. Barry

You keep say “the attention span of girls” as if girls are different. What are you comparing against. I’m not confronting you, I’m just curious how you came to that conclusion. Barry

My apologies for replying so late. I don't think an explanation would be futile. In fact, stories of how to deal with introverts can help other scout leaders in the forum. Introverts can have anxiety from any personal communication with strangers or even known acquaintances if the subject subject mater is challenging. And challenging can even mean something positive like a boss asking the introvert to come to their office to present them with a raise. Introverts struggle with making choices of meeting people to knowingly advance their personal situation, or to not meet that person to ease the anxiety of the meeting. I have worked with many scouts with introvert tendencies, some very severe. I have lots of great bragging success stories of these scouts. I believe scouting to be a wonderful program for these scouts because they are introduce into a team atmosphere where they learn to develop trust in the members of their team and contribute to a common goal. But, the key to scouts with introvert characteristics is to start them on the team, but in a minimum expectations. I had one scout terrified to have an acting role in front of the group. I learned this when he was asked to present the colors on a campout. No problem, we instead moved him with the scouts who presented the colors without any expected actions. Two years later he was leading ceremonies.. There is more, but that is the basic idea. But, I agree whole heartedly with Sentinel947 that participating with the patrol in songs and skits is a HUGE team building tool. They were in fact the very tools used for our Webelos program to get scouts ready for the troop program. And one doesn't have to be a great singer, or even sing at all. They can participate by leading the group or holding props. The main thing is being part of the team. A mother of a severe introvert in our troop sent a letter to the Council SE explaining how their son was so shy and introverted that even his teachers were making fun of him. In fact, they sued the school over it. In her letter, she explained that the troop was only place where he felt safe to be himself because all his patrol mates accepted him for who he was. He eventually matured to be a Patrol Leader. She couldn't enough about the scout program. Last I heard, that scout was an officer on a nuclear submarine. As I said, I can't think of a better youth program that helps youth develop the courage, confidence and habits for fitting in society. A troop is cultural experience at a youth size. Hope that helps. Barry

Hmm, how should a troop deal with the scout who doesn’t take a turn cooking? Or cleaning? Or tearing down camp? Or……..? Or…….? There is a method behind the madness. But, some youth just aren’t ready to be part team program. They eventually will figure it out, or leave. But the program shouldn’t change for the rest of the scouts. Barry

This is a big problem, I agree. I believe a big part of the problem is adult leaders who never had a youth scouting experience. Without the experience of adventure and the social dynamics of camping in the woods, these adults have to rely on measurable experiences, which is advancement. Advancement drives annual schedules and shapes scouting activities. Character development is a function of rank and advancement sing-offs, not scouts’ choices judged within the interpretations off the law. Theses adults are afraid to let any scout not earn the Eagle. And you can’t blame these adults, training doesn’t emphasize growth from right or wrong choices. Allowing scouts to make choices and decisions in their activities requires giving them the freedom to define the parameters of right and wrong and adults today simply don’t allow them that freedom, partially because it’s not pushed in training. I’m not sure I agree here. I believe the Eagle should be a personal goal of jumping through hoops beyond the typical troop outdoor program. The troop outdoor program should be complex enough to attract the maturity of older scouts. The Eagle requirements should be more than what the typical troop outdoor program offers, and require more than the typical ambition of the average scout. Where we fail the Eagle program is we adults push the scouts to do more than their maturity wants in their program. Eagles are for above average scouts, and we adults should have the courage to let the scouts choose. My observation is that most scouts in a program that challenges them at all ages don’t really feel the drive for Eagle until they are at least 15. Most troops think 15 is to late, but most of our Eagles had their ECOH within a few months of their 18th birthday. They were simply having too much fun to focus on the advanced Eagle requirements in their early years. Ironically, the troop that puts more focus on adventure than advancement, will have a more Eagles. A lot more Eagles because it’s really just a natural progression for the maturity of older scouts. Barry

As a SM, I was called at least once a week by a parent with an opinion of something they saw that bothered them. Sometimes more than 1 a week, rarely less. And you would be amazed of what bothers parents. Every SM has a strong opinion to someone, especially if they firm with how the program is run. All I can say is if SMs, or strong leaders, don’t learn the art of listening, they will have continued frustration and drama. Add the skills of patience and humility because sometimes the SM, or strong leader, is wrong. Barry

For troops that want the benefits of scout growth from patrol method, summer camp gives the scouts the most growth of the year because of the intense outdoor program in the number of days forces scouts the habits of servant lifestyles. However, that growth requires older scouts to work along side the younger scouts. Young scouts learn by watching older scout mentors and older scout grow comes from mentoring (NOT Babysitting) the younger scouts. Troops with a program of older scout mentors working with younger scouts in a patrol method environment typically have a good attendance of older scouts to their summer camp. A common comment from parents after summer camp is the troop brought home a more mature son then the one that left for camp. I say all that because summer camp should be a troop priority for scout growth and patrol unity. HA is also important for growth and opportunities, but should be secondary to the summer camp program. One last comment; I encourage troops to push high adventure to their whole troop, not just the younger ones. I realigned my thinking when our 11 year old tenderfoot who had been racing bicycles for 3 years wasn't allowed to attend a biking HA trek. He knew more about bicycling than all the rest of the scouts added together and had more miles of riding than some adults have in cars. Of course physical and mental maturity are required for to match the activities, but, there are many activities 11 and 12 year old scouts can do. The idea that only older scouts should do HA is one reason the BSA program as a whole is struggling. Troops should be adventure programs, not First Class advancement programs. The last thing a 14 year old scout wants to do is repeat their first three years of pushing young scouts to advance. Older scouts enjoy teaching and mentoring young scouts in adventure. Barry

Yes, but he was a paid professional. I don’t know how much he can no. Barry

The best DE I ever worked with was a retired engineer. He was also a Silver Beaver with a very good 20 history as a Scoutmaster. He was an idea guy, so we got along well and started a few district activities. What did him in was being assigned the council summer camp coordinator. It was a thankless job that took him away from his wife too much. The problem with any volunteer type organization is talented workers keep getting more responsibilities until they are sucked dry. I’m sure our DE would have stayed another 10 years if he hadn’t taken the summer camp coordinator job. Barry

The situation isn't just Scouting, but any organization that relies on volunteers to run the program. And, it is a double complex realty because volunteers are generally not trained or have expert skills for their expected tasks. In fact, volunteer work IS on the job training. Which is why units with adults who had a youth scouting experience are usually far ahead of units with no youth scouting experience. As for volunteers with a military experience, they typically respect the leadership a bit more than non military experienced volunteers. The most entertaining units to watch are the ones with a main leader who has military experience, but the rest of the adults don't. Barry

I had a similar situation with my first SPL. I wasn't really happy with his performance for my expectations. So, I took him out for pizza before the meeting so we could talk. After discussing family and other light topics, I asked how he though he was doing as SPL. I expected him to hemhal around without much details, and that is where I would discuss his performance. But, he instead broke a huge smile and started telling me (bragging really) about all the things he had done and was improving on. After ten minutes of his enlighting reflection, I had to admit he was doing a really good job and I needed to cut each of us some slack my my high expectations. I'm glad he was my first SPL because he taught me a great lesson that helped my Scoutmastering the rest of my career. Every scout is different with different personal expectations. Some scouts are just great leaders and do a great job. Some scouts aren't so good, but work their butts off to be as good as they are. While I had to set up expectations for scouts in all their activities, I also had to judge them under their terms of ability, personality, and character. Then, I had a starting place where I could measure their growth of performance instead of measuring them under my rigged expectations. Through my career of adult scouting, I have had the opportunity to counsel many leaders who were frustrated with a scouts performance. I asked them, "have they grown?". If yes, then you are doing it right and you should be proud of both of you. Most of us are not great leaders, so great leaders really stick out. But, we shouldn't let the great leaders set the bar for everyone. We adults need to guide each scout to set an individual bar the requires the scouts to stretch himself in making right decisions. But, not set the bar so high that the scout never sees himself growing and doing well. We adults are doing it right when each scout can say to himself, I like myself when I am scouting. I personally learned to talk to scouts a lot so that I had an opportunity to say good job, and build a relationship to suggest improvement. I found that some scouts didn't even know when I was officially doing a SM Conference. But, at the same time, the scouts learn a lot about me during these discussions, and just watching me. They get to know what I expect and the priorities of their behavior. It's a long process for us adults to become productive role models, just like it is a long process for scouts to grow in their decision making. You also have to set some guidelines for the other adults. Mostly just to maintain consistency, not control. While I haven't answered many of your questions on this discussion, I hope I've given food for thought that might help you as you progress with your program. Have a great Scouting week. Barry

I figure a Scoutmasters needs at least 3 years to start to understand the general workings of Patrol Method. And a lifetime to really know how those workings push young adults to grow in character. Seems you reached that 3 year mark. We also built our patrol around 10 scouts with the idea that at least half would show at campouts. But, we often had 2 man patrols and even 1 man patrols once in a while. We found the scouts like 1 and 2 man patrols because the individualism is adventure and they look forward to the challenges. And, we found the other patrols will look after them. Our 1 man and 2 man patrols tended to get standing ovation at the end of the campouts. The next part is just information, but not suggestions. We also build and purchased the good patrol equipment and patrol boxes. About three years after starting the troop, I arranged meeting of ideas with the PLC and that is where I learned the scouts hated the patrol boxes. They were big and heavy and tended to always get real messy. They also weren't all that excited with big stoves or lanterns. It was a lot of stuff they had to load, unload, and maintain. Two weeks later we created and experiment where 3 of our 6 patrols were changing to backpacking patrols. No patrol boxes, no lanterns or big Coleman stoves. We purchased two burner backpacking stoves and streamlined the rest of the gear to be backpackable. We did do High Adventure backpacking trips, so we knew our way around the gear. The idea was let these 3 patrols experiment with the minimalist gear for 6 months and then evaluate what to do with the other 3 patrols. Well, as you might guess, the experiment didn't go as expected. The 3 other patrols demanded they become backpacking patrols after two months. And that was how we became a back packing troop. Our troop also used 4 man tents because they were the most economical when we started the troop. But, because we were a backpacking troop, the scouts started bringing their own backpacking tents that they used on backpacking trips. They just like one or two man tents more. And, the older scouts actually wanted the privacy to sleep. We adults got into the program wanting to develop the best troop with the best scouts. Of course. But, I saw that adults dream of scouting is uniformity. Looks. If we adults will allow them, the scouts will show us what true patrol method really is. And, it's not always pretty. But, true Patrol Method becomes an addiction where the scouts are free to develop their dream of an ideal scout. If the adults could stand to just step back and let the patrol method machine work under it's own inertia, the adults will find that the scouts will grow so fast that the adults struggle to get out of the way. Patrol method should be real life at a boys size. Every time the adults try to guide the scouts toward their vision of ideal scouts, the program will bog down trying to find the next step. Scouts will naturally let adults takeover, so the adults have to purposely "Get Out Of The Way". Once everyone understands their place, the adults will be surprised to see the troop become a lean, mean, scouting machine. And, it will grow. All the adults really need to do is insure that the scouts are using the 8 methods of scouting. They can measure their program by watching how well the scouts are working the three Aims. OK, I understand the National added the 4th Aim, leadership. Ignore leadership as an Aim and let the scouts deal with it in their methods. Adults want all scouts to be leaders, but all scouts don't want to be leaders. They want to be great scouts. I have lots of stories of great scouts who stepped up and showed great leadership when leadership was required in the moment. I'm over stepping. Sorry. Sounds like you have a great program. Enjoy. Barry

Don’t you mean in their best efforts.

Our ASMs were provided a scout to brief them of the PLC meetings and help train the new ASMs to the troop program on campouts. We created the idea to help the ASMs to work equally with scouts as team members to prevent the common problem of adults treating scouts as youth. We didn’t do a trained patch, but the ASMs were required to get Woods Tools training which was signed off by the scouts. Barry

I learned from experience that behavior discipline, uniforms, and advancement are the most challenging parts of todays scouting for adults because they are the most controlled parts by the adults. They are challenging because adults look only at the technical aspects of the scout’s actions and misapply, misjudge and misunderstand how to used the actions for developing values of making decisions. For example, BORs are by design the only process in a Scout run program to be run only by adults. Does that make sense? Well yes, the SM conference is a adult process. But, skills are part of the program and guarded by the Scoutmaster. They alone are held responsible for program quality, so they should be given responsibility to measure their program. im not even a fan of Scoutmasters signing off completed MBs. In fact, our Council uses MB white cards that don’t have that signature requirement. What is the point? The card was signed off completed by the counselor. As qwazse points out, any additional signatures are just questioning the scouts and counselors integrity. And, if the SM simply wants to learn the quality of how the counselor worked with the scouts, they can do it through a conference. If the BOR is a check on the Scoutmaster’s program, then what is wrong with retesting. A scout is retested in school, work, sports and skills activities all their life. Scouting should be a place to encourage confidence of retesting. If abuse is the fear, well that is a problem with all aspects of the scouting program. The committee deals with it through a complaint process. And if adult intimidation is the fear, mix experienced scouts into the board. I’ve done and if fixes that problem. My point is get advancement back into the proper place of ‘decisions making development’ instead of ‘stature ranking’. I would much rather have patrol leaders with the skills to survive 40 nights of camping. A camping MB should just be a gimmy for a true first class scout. Barry

If I didn’t know better, I would say this was my troop. We run exactly the same way including each SPL doing an annual plan. I agree the committee supports the scouts program. But, I also believe they insure the Scoutmasters program is in sync gwith the program vision. Every scoutmaster has a different way of doing things, so program consistency is the committee’s responsibility. Barry

I'm not quite sure what all that means. Who should look at the mirror? Leadership is a standard BOR question on most BORs all the way to Eagle. Any question from an intimidating adult could be perceived as loaded. So, the issue isn't the question, it is the stressful BOR environment. And, if it is stressful for one scout, it is likely a problem for several. So, yes, something has to be fixed. And, it appears to me the SM is dodging the problem taking it on her own. That is not how to Fix the problem. The program has to be safe for all the scouts. Not just the one. I'm not giving a SM a break when their actions could cause more harm. I've seen it happen. Barry

As a retired SM of many hundreds of scouts and the trainer, advisor, and mentor of hundreds of Scoutmasters, I put the blame of this situation 100 percent on the Scoutmaster. First, I have said many times on this forum that I am not a fan of the current BOR process for two reasons; First, it interrupts the scout run process with a totally adult procedure that scouts could do themselves. Second, I don't like the adult run BOR for this very situation. The Troop brings young naive scouts and helps them build a trust of youth leadership, THEN throws them in room of adult strangers who asked them challenging questions in a testing format. I understand that the only objective of the BOR is to find issues with the program. But, it is the Scoutmasters program they are judging through the eyes of a scared shy naive youth. I have said many times that if the troop really wants to know how the Scoutmaster is doing, talk to the parents. I experimented with adding an Older Eagle Scout to the board for the Tenderfoot, 2nd Class, and First Class BORs so the scout would have a friend in the room. And it worked very well. We couldn't do that all the time, but most scouts get comfortable with the BOR process by their 1st class BOR anyway. I'm curious: 1. How did this scout get to Star in these BORs? 2. How is he going to get through an EBOR of total stranger asking difficult questions. What bothers me about this situation is the Scoutmaster missed and opportunity to help the scout grow so he can deal with people that make him feel uncomfortable for the rest of his life. And, the mis-actions have divided the adult team's trust. The SM is not the leader of the adult team, that is the CC. And it is up to the committee to determine what to do with scoutmasters who don't live up to the expectation of the troop. In most cases, committees let the SM drive the Vision of the program and the process for working the program. But, in reality, the Vision and the program process should be created and guarded by the committee to have continuity over the years. Part of the problem is that many Scoutmasters use compassion as their motivation without really even considering the scout's future. True, this SM save the day by totally ignoring the troop committee and presses further by choosing future committee members for the scout. Without, sitting down and discussing the situation with the committee to seek out what is really best for the Scout. The whole committee can't be heartless. I also struggle with these scoutmasters because their Ego's many times tend to drive them to ignore normal policies and other ideas. We had such a SM on this forum who stated good ideals for the good of scouts, but tended to modify the BSA policies to fit his own unproven theories. After he was asked to leave his 3rd troop in five years, he dropped off the forum. His compassion and theories where dangerous. If the SM of this situation doesn't work with the committee, then they can look forward to other issues in the future. I watched a stubborn compassionate SM drive their troop to litigation. It was the wisdom of the CC who manage to find compromise with parents and save the troop a lot of money. The CC needs to have a meeting with the SM and explain the loss of trust they have with decisions. The Committee and the SM corp need to go back to training together and if possible, team development training. Each adult member needs to learn the expectations of their position and trust each other to support the program. I could go on and on, but I have watched many BOR issues drive a wedge in troop programs because one of more adults decided they were right and took things in their own hands. Unfortunately most of volunteers are not trained for many of the situations that occur in a volunteer organization and they let their emotions drive their actions around policies and procedures. And then someone like me gets a call from district to go and see they can get the program back on the rails. Barry

Most folks here know that I am a anti Tiger person because I found through a lot of research that Tigers strangles the ALL the other ages because it burns out the adults. Lions will only push that issue faster. If National feels peronoid about membership at the toddler age, then they need to look at a seperate program like the GSUSA Daisies that takes the burdon of toddler maturity away from the pack, and provides a divide where adults can say, No!, I need a break. We changed our Tiger program to one meeting a month led by parents with the assistance of a pack adult mentor. We made a few other changes with the intention of taking as much burden off the adults as possible. Our Tiger to Wolf retention went from 20 percent to 90 percent. Do, what it takes to save your program. I know of several packs that skipped Tigers and maintained their Wolf numbers the next year. A packs long range goals should be to get their scouts to crossover. That is a huge goal. On average, only 50% of Webelos even crossover to troops. That doesn't include the membership drop outs at the younger ages. Normally, observing Troop membership is a good indicator to how program changes are performing, but covid has everything messed up. A guess is that 2022 is really the first year baseline leaving 2028 as the indicator for Troop membership. BUT, We already noted a measurable drop in Troop membership in 2006 after national made huge program changes to the Tiger program in 2000. I can't imagine Lions doing any better. I've felt that Lions should be, what is now the first year Webelos with a program that starts the scouting into independent decision making, but with the family. The 2nd year Webelos would be more advanced toward a troop program (basically more independence without the family), but still a den program. But, National never seems to to consider my brilliant ideas. LOL. Barry

Wow, great discussion. I call the scouting world in this discussion real life at a boy's (youth's) size. Scouting is assumed safe because the program is presented so that scouts are physically safe. But, I taught in the adult classes that scouting is safe because a scout is safe to make wrong decisions without judgement forcing correction. Watching a scout learn from their decisions without the reaction of judging and correcting is the most challenging part of the adult leaders responsibilities. I admit that I did it wrong more often than I did it right. Barry

The one time a close is appropriate is when the culture process is going the wrong direction. When culture affects 100 scouts, then the class is the quick fix for correction. You are right that the MB card is an opportunity for a discussion and teaching, mostly with brand new scouts. But, we found that the lesson learned from MB processing didn't translate to signing off other scouts' handbooks. The issue there is that the signing off advancement incorrectly isn't discovered until the other scouts have a conference. And, usually several scouts are victims of the incorrect signoff processing. I didn't feel a correction here required an individual discussion when the correction was simply a better explanation of correctly signing off other scouts advancement. And, I took it as more of adults doing a better job explaining the process. When it comes to these things, boys, (adults included) often take the path of least resistance. Barry

And SSScout makes a good point with the hen scratching. We ended up creating a 10 minute class to teach scouts how to fill out handbooks, merit badge cards, and other documents so that their print was legible with correct dates. I am a full believer in NOT making these task easier for the scouts. District Merit Badge Colleges set bad examples to their units, who in-turn follow with bad habits in their MB process. Barry

National, historically, has a reputation for using data to justify self serving objectives when the opposite trends were closer to reality. Don’t visualize the fine folks at National as professionals working to serve the noble reputation of the Scouting vision. In fact don’t think of them as professional. National likely has some of the data, but aren’t making it easily available because it isn’t to their advantage, both in general operation and public observation. Add that they have been very focused on saving the organization from bankruptcy the last couple of years. I don’t believe the .9 number is a national trend. But, I could be under estimating Covid. I don’t believe the abuse issue is doing that much harm to the general community, because I’m not hearing it from the community, and cultural scandals haven’t pulled down the membership over the years like the naysayers pontificated. National is clumsy with program at the national level, so real program organization will come from the local council. Or not, if you understand what I mean. It’s not hopeless, you do have strength and leverage locally. focus on the pack numbers because they feed the rest of the organization. Raise the pack numbers and the rest of your local program will respond. Barry

Your past post over the years say you do think you know why. Do your research ShootingSports, I did a lot of membership research in the past that often enlightsens and corrects the forum list. Good data is worth its weight in gold because it gives you direction for your program. Barry