Eagledad

I agree with qwazse, but I wonder how much of the enthusiasm was generated by passionate adults. I didn't get a comfortable feeling about the youth level of enthusiasm from this form. Of course this is an adult forum, but some of the adults seemed hell-bent and creating success stories. However, the Venturing Crews program does have some success with active girls. Barry

Yes, many challenges. A big one ate the unprofessional professionals at National. My big concern is whether parents want a character building program or an after school program. Barry

After many years of observing BSA units, I find that economics and ignorance are big drivers of unit procedures because few adults understand the BSA vision enough to keep their program compass pointed north. Adults will get what they want one way or another. Council would only step in when they see a liability risk. The next few years will be interesting. Barry

Doesn’t make sense. Barry

I agree with this post. A council in southern Oklahoma merged with the Central Oklahoma council in the early 90s. The southern Council's OA program was considered the hallmark of OA programs in all of Oklahoma while the Central Council's program struggled. The merge required OA members of the southern council drive 90 minutes to meetings in central Oklahoma. The southern OA struggles to survive now. Barry

The BSA is the adults program with a vision of developing the youth into moral and ethical decision makers. Most here who know me know I am very pro youth run. But, I cringe when I here leave it up to the youth. While the main principal of the program is scouts developing character from their free choices, the program has guidelines that the units must work within. That doesn’t mean the scouts can’t be a part of making the decisions, it means they should be part of the team with adults who have experience and wisdom that they can contribute to discussion to provide more content. The point of the discussion shouldn’t letting the scouts choose, the discussion is how to discuss the complexities as a team and work toward solutions as a team. It won’t be easy, but the questions aren’t easy either. Barry

Tap out was always one of the fun parts of the process that scouts looked forward to. Especially at summer camp in front of hundreds of observers. Saying that, the Ordeal is where the scout finds out if he/she are ready and mature enough to be an Arrowmen. Rather that is how it used to be. Barry

I’m not sure my post applies to your experience. I’m saying just because a culture decided to be offended by the innocent and respectful actions of an organization does not make the actions any less innocent and respectful and should be treated with the respect of their intentions. As for your sons experience, I turned down the district recruiting committees offer to take over as the chapter advisor because I didn’t want to deal with the Scoutmasters. I come from a time when Arrowmen were the special forces of scouting. I would have drove the chapter in that direction and I knew I would meet a lot of resistance. Barry

Wow, with friends like this, who needs enemies. I’ve been active in scouting one way or another for almost 60:. In all those years, I have never seen AO show disrespect to the American Indian/idigenous/Native American culture. In fact OAs actions are typically respectful with the intention of showing honor. Now if the culture has changed how it looks at such things, fine, we change to continue showing respect. But done disparage the OA for living the scout law in their efforts. On the other hand, I’m not sure OA can get back to the honor and respect that the organization once had because our culture doesn’t like individualism that sets piers apart. OA is/was an honor program that recognized scouts who set themselves apart as outdoorsmen and servants. They used to be the go to experts of camping skills. And, they usually were humble in their service to others. The organization used to require a scout prove discipline and maturity of camping and serving. Now many troops want all their scout to get elected in to the organization no matter their experience or maturity. Seems there is no real desire for a true honor program in the BSA. Barry

Thank you for the wonderful post, mrjohns2. Barry

You keep say “the attention span of girls” as if girls are different. What are you comparing against. I’m not confronting you, I’m just curious how you came to that conclusion. Barry

My apologies for replying so late. I don't think an explanation would be futile. In fact, stories of how to deal with introverts can help other scout leaders in the forum. Introverts can have anxiety from any personal communication with strangers or even known acquaintances if the subject subject mater is challenging. And challenging can even mean something positive like a boss asking the introvert to come to their office to present them with a raise. Introverts struggle with making choices of meeting people to knowingly advance their personal situation, or to not meet that person to ease the anxiety of the meeting. I have worked with many scouts with introvert tendencies, some very severe. I have lots of great bragging success stories of these scouts. I believe scouting to be a wonderful program for these scouts because they are introduce into a team atmosphere where they learn to develop trust in the members of their team and contribute to a common goal. But, the key to scouts with introvert characteristics is to start them on the team, but in a minimum expectations. I had one scout terrified to have an acting role in front of the group. I learned this when he was asked to present the colors on a campout. No problem, we instead moved him with the scouts who presented the colors without any expected actions. Two years later he was leading ceremonies.. There is more, but that is the basic idea. But, I agree whole heartedly with Sentinel947 that participating with the patrol in songs and skits is a HUGE team building tool. They were in fact the very tools used for our Webelos program to get scouts ready for the troop program. And one doesn't have to be a great singer, or even sing at all. They can participate by leading the group or holding props. The main thing is being part of the team. A mother of a severe introvert in our troop sent a letter to the Council SE explaining how their son was so shy and introverted that even his teachers were making fun of him. In fact, they sued the school over it. In her letter, she explained that the troop was only place where he felt safe to be himself because all his patrol mates accepted him for who he was. He eventually matured to be a Patrol Leader. She couldn't enough about the scout program. Last I heard, that scout was an officer on a nuclear submarine. As I said, I can't think of a better youth program that helps youth develop the courage, confidence and habits for fitting in society. A troop is cultural experience at a youth size. Hope that helps. Barry

Hmm, how should a troop deal with the scout who doesn’t take a turn cooking? Or cleaning? Or tearing down camp? Or……..? Or…….? There is a method behind the madness. But, some youth just aren’t ready to be part team program. They eventually will figure it out, or leave. But the program shouldn’t change for the rest of the scouts. Barry

This is a big problem, I agree. I believe a big part of the problem is adult leaders who never had a youth scouting experience. Without the experience of adventure and the social dynamics of camping in the woods, these adults have to rely on measurable experiences, which is advancement. Advancement drives annual schedules and shapes scouting activities. Character development is a function of rank and advancement sing-offs, not scouts’ choices judged within the interpretations off the law. Theses adults are afraid to let any scout not earn the Eagle. And you can’t blame these adults, training doesn’t emphasize growth from right or wrong choices. Allowing scouts to make choices and decisions in their activities requires giving them the freedom to define the parameters of right and wrong and adults today simply don’t allow them that freedom, partially because it’s not pushed in training. I’m not sure I agree here. I believe the Eagle should be a personal goal of jumping through hoops beyond the typical troop outdoor program. The troop outdoor program should be complex enough to attract the maturity of older scouts. The Eagle requirements should be more than what the typical troop outdoor program offers, and require more than the typical ambition of the average scout. Where we fail the Eagle program is we adults push the scouts to do more than their maturity wants in their program. Eagles are for above average scouts, and we adults should have the courage to let the scouts choose. My observation is that most scouts in a program that challenges them at all ages don’t really feel the drive for Eagle until they are at least 15. Most troops think 15 is to late, but most of our Eagles had their ECOH within a few months of their 18th birthday. They were simply having too much fun to focus on the advanced Eagle requirements in their early years. Ironically, the troop that puts more focus on adventure than advancement, will have a more Eagles. A lot more Eagles because it’s really just a natural progression for the maturity of older scouts. Barry

As a SM, I was called at least once a week by a parent with an opinion of something they saw that bothered them. Sometimes more than 1 a week, rarely less. And you would be amazed of what bothers parents. Every SM has a strong opinion to someone, especially if they firm with how the program is run. All I can say is if SMs, or strong leaders, don’t learn the art of listening, they will have continued frustration and drama. Add the skills of patience and humility because sometimes the SM, or strong leader, is wrong. Barry

For troops that want the benefits of scout growth from patrol method, summer camp gives the scouts the most growth of the year because of the intense outdoor program in the number of days forces scouts the habits of servant lifestyles. However, that growth requires older scouts to work along side the younger scouts. Young scouts learn by watching older scout mentors and older scout grow comes from mentoring (NOT Babysitting) the younger scouts. Troops with a program of older scout mentors working with younger scouts in a patrol method environment typically have a good attendance of older scouts to their summer camp. A common comment from parents after summer camp is the troop brought home a more mature son then the one that left for camp. I say all that because summer camp should be a troop priority for scout growth and patrol unity. HA is also important for growth and opportunities, but should be secondary to the summer camp program. One last comment; I encourage troops to push high adventure to their whole troop, not just the younger ones. I realigned my thinking when our 11 year old tenderfoot who had been racing bicycles for 3 years wasn't allowed to attend a biking HA trek. He knew more about bicycling than all the rest of the scouts added together and had more miles of riding than some adults have in cars. Of course physical and mental maturity are required for to match the activities, but, there are many activities 11 and 12 year old scouts can do. The idea that only older scouts should do HA is one reason the BSA program as a whole is struggling. Troops should be adventure programs, not First Class advancement programs. The last thing a 14 year old scout wants to do is repeat their first three years of pushing young scouts to advance. Older scouts enjoy teaching and mentoring young scouts in adventure. Barry

Yes, but he was a paid professional. I don’t know how much he can no. Barry

The best DE I ever worked with was a retired engineer. He was also a Silver Beaver with a very good 20 history as a Scoutmaster. He was an idea guy, so we got along well and started a few district activities. What did him in was being assigned the council summer camp coordinator. It was a thankless job that took him away from his wife too much. The problem with any volunteer type organization is talented workers keep getting more responsibilities until they are sucked dry. I’m sure our DE would have stayed another 10 years if he hadn’t taken the summer camp coordinator job. Barry

The situation isn't just Scouting, but any organization that relies on volunteers to run the program. And, it is a double complex realty because volunteers are generally not trained or have expert skills for their expected tasks. In fact, volunteer work IS on the job training. Which is why units with adults who had a youth scouting experience are usually far ahead of units with no youth scouting experience. As for volunteers with a military experience, they typically respect the leadership a bit more than non military experienced volunteers. The most entertaining units to watch are the ones with a main leader who has military experience, but the rest of the adults don't. Barry

I had a similar situation with my first SPL. I wasn't really happy with his performance for my expectations. So, I took him out for pizza before the meeting so we could talk. After discussing family and other light topics, I asked how he though he was doing as SPL. I expected him to hemhal around without much details, and that is where I would discuss his performance. But, he instead broke a huge smile and started telling me (bragging really) about all the things he had done and was improving on. After ten minutes of his enlighting reflection, I had to admit he was doing a really good job and I needed to cut each of us some slack my my high expectations. I'm glad he was my first SPL because he taught me a great lesson that helped my Scoutmastering the rest of my career. Every scout is different with different personal expectations. Some scouts are just great leaders and do a great job. Some scouts aren't so good, but work their butts off to be as good as they are. While I had to set up expectations for scouts in all their activities, I also had to judge them under their terms of ability, personality, and character. Then, I had a starting place where I could measure their growth of performance instead of measuring them under my rigged expectations. Through my career of adult scouting, I have had the opportunity to counsel many leaders who were frustrated with a scouts performance. I asked them, "have they grown?". If yes, then you are doing it right and you should be proud of both of you. Most of us are not great leaders, so great leaders really stick out. But, we shouldn't let the great leaders set the bar for everyone. We adults need to guide each scout to set an individual bar the requires the scouts to stretch himself in making right decisions. But, not set the bar so high that the scout never sees himself growing and doing well. We adults are doing it right when each scout can say to himself, I like myself when I am scouting. I personally learned to talk to scouts a lot so that I had an opportunity to say good job, and build a relationship to suggest improvement. I found that some scouts didn't even know when I was officially doing a SM Conference. But, at the same time, the scouts learn a lot about me during these discussions, and just watching me. They get to know what I expect and the priorities of their behavior. It's a long process for us adults to become productive role models, just like it is a long process for scouts to grow in their decision making. You also have to set some guidelines for the other adults. Mostly just to maintain consistency, not control. While I haven't answered many of your questions on this discussion, I hope I've given food for thought that might help you as you progress with your program. Have a great Scouting week. Barry

I figure a Scoutmasters needs at least 3 years to start to understand the general workings of Patrol Method. And a lifetime to really know how those workings push young adults to grow in character. Seems you reached that 3 year mark. We also built our patrol around 10 scouts with the idea that at least half would show at campouts. But, we often had 2 man patrols and even 1 man patrols once in a while. We found the scouts like 1 and 2 man patrols because the individualism is adventure and they look forward to the challenges. And, we found the other patrols will look after them. Our 1 man and 2 man patrols tended to get standing ovation at the end of the campouts. The next part is just information, but not suggestions. We also build and purchased the good patrol equipment and patrol boxes. About three years after starting the troop, I arranged meeting of ideas with the PLC and that is where I learned the scouts hated the patrol boxes. They were big and heavy and tended to always get real messy. They also weren't all that excited with big stoves or lanterns. It was a lot of stuff they had to load, unload, and maintain. Two weeks later we created and experiment where 3 of our 6 patrols were changing to backpacking patrols. No patrol boxes, no lanterns or big Coleman stoves. We purchased two burner backpacking stoves and streamlined the rest of the gear to be backpackable. We did do High Adventure backpacking trips, so we knew our way around the gear. The idea was let these 3 patrols experiment with the minimalist gear for 6 months and then evaluate what to do with the other 3 patrols. Well, as you might guess, the experiment didn't go as expected. The 3 other patrols demanded they become backpacking patrols after two months. And that was how we became a back packing troop. Our troop also used 4 man tents because they were the most economical when we started the troop. But, because we were a backpacking troop, the scouts started bringing their own backpacking tents that they used on backpacking trips. They just like one or two man tents more. And, the older scouts actually wanted the privacy to sleep. We adults got into the program wanting to develop the best troop with the best scouts. Of course. But, I saw that adults dream of scouting is uniformity. Looks. If we adults will allow them, the scouts will show us what true patrol method really is. And, it's not always pretty. But, true Patrol Method becomes an addiction where the scouts are free to develop their dream of an ideal scout. If the adults could stand to just step back and let the patrol method machine work under it's own inertia, the adults will find that the scouts will grow so fast that the adults struggle to get out of the way. Patrol method should be real life at a boys size. Every time the adults try to guide the scouts toward their vision of ideal scouts, the program will bog down trying to find the next step. Scouts will naturally let adults takeover, so the adults have to purposely "Get Out Of The Way". Once everyone understands their place, the adults will be surprised to see the troop become a lean, mean, scouting machine. And, it will grow. All the adults really need to do is insure that the scouts are using the 8 methods of scouting. They can measure their program by watching how well the scouts are working the three Aims. OK, I understand the National added the 4th Aim, leadership. Ignore leadership as an Aim and let the scouts deal with it in their methods. Adults want all scouts to be leaders, but all scouts don't want to be leaders. They want to be great scouts. I have lots of stories of great scouts who stepped up and showed great leadership when leadership was required in the moment. I'm over stepping. Sorry. Sounds like you have a great program. Enjoy. Barry

Don’t you mean in their best efforts.

Our ASMs were provided a scout to brief them of the PLC meetings and help train the new ASMs to the troop program on campouts. We created the idea to help the ASMs to work equally with scouts as team members to prevent the common problem of adults treating scouts as youth. We didn’t do a trained patch, but the ASMs were required to get Woods Tools training which was signed off by the scouts. Barry

I learned from experience that behavior discipline, uniforms, and advancement are the most challenging parts of todays scouting for adults because they are the most controlled parts by the adults. They are challenging because adults look only at the technical aspects of the scout’s actions and misapply, misjudge and misunderstand how to used the actions for developing values of making decisions. For example, BORs are by design the only process in a Scout run program to be run only by adults. Does that make sense? Well yes, the SM conference is a adult process. But, skills are part of the program and guarded by the Scoutmaster. They alone are held responsible for program quality, so they should be given responsibility to measure their program. im not even a fan of Scoutmasters signing off completed MBs. In fact, our Council uses MB white cards that don’t have that signature requirement. What is the point? The card was signed off completed by the counselor. As qwazse points out, any additional signatures are just questioning the scouts and counselors integrity. And, if the SM simply wants to learn the quality of how the counselor worked with the scouts, they can do it through a conference. If the BOR is a check on the Scoutmaster’s program, then what is wrong with retesting. A scout is retested in school, work, sports and skills activities all their life. Scouting should be a place to encourage confidence of retesting. If abuse is the fear, well that is a problem with all aspects of the scouting program. The committee deals with it through a complaint process. And if adult intimidation is the fear, mix experienced scouts into the board. I’ve done and if fixes that problem. My point is get advancement back into the proper place of ‘decisions making development’ instead of ‘stature ranking’. I would much rather have patrol leaders with the skills to survive 40 nights of camping. A camping MB should just be a gimmy for a true first class scout. Barry

If I didn’t know better, I would say this was my troop. We run exactly the same way including each SPL doing an annual plan. I agree the committee supports the scouts program. But, I also believe they insure the Scoutmasters program is in sync gwith the program vision. Every scoutmaster has a different way of doing things, so program consistency is the committee’s responsibility. Barry