Eagledad

That's mans failure, not god, or God. LOL, I know. But you did ask. Barry

It means, without god, all judgment is by man. Since man often disagrees with their neighbor, there is no objective guidance for behavior. Barry

Without god, smiting comes from the Scoutmaster. Barry Without god, smiting comes from the Scoutmaster. Barry

The global progressive agenda is anti-god, so taking god out of the program is inevitable. Some of us have been warning that god will be removed from the program since homosexual behavior was allowed as normal in the program. You can’t accept immoral behavior as normal with god standing over the principles of the program, so the liberal culture removes god to give man authority over the principles. Changes to the Oath and Law are close. Once that happens, unit leaders values will dictate moral and ethical behavior. Morality will depend on the strongest outspoken adult. Scouts will not be allowed to use their personal principles to balance the leaders judgment. Morality will be dictated by the guy with the biggest stick. Barry

This is our policy, which has worked very well. It goes along with qwazse’s suggestion. Barry.

Yep, I sort of agree. But you missed what I think is the National's biggest failure on the program, the over burdened Cub leader. The number one cause of Cubs not crossing over to troops is adult leader burnout. The effects of Cub leader burnout ripples through the whole program. The Tiger program alone requires a 3rd of the cub program resources. What does National do, ADD Lions. Barry

Have you ever seen this done? Barry

Well yes, but would you really want it any different? What you are talking about is personality of the adults in troop, not lack of quality control. Don't you think the program needs that much flexability? Programs in general do the best they can with the resources they can obtain. They may vary a little here in there with implementing the program, but it's more of a judgement of how they believe National intended, not a personal action purposely breaching the program. I find myself in an odd place defending National, but personally, I believe Nationals failures are the result of NOT listening, I mean really listening, to the units. However, you want National to hang around if you expect the program to survive, even with girls. And, while the Eagle part of the discussion got silly in the other thread with adding more adventure and so forth, truth is National has done a pretty good job of not letting the Eagle loose it's prestigious reputation. After reading some of the posts on this forum, would you want to implement some of their suggestions? I used to travel more for my business. So, I would get on the forum and ask to visit units across the country. While they each have their personalities, they all pretty much ran the same program. As scout from liberal California could easily join a Troop in the conservative south and without missing a beat. Because of training and the handbooks, everyone pretty much runs the same basic program. That integrity is the only thing that will save the program in the future, even with adding girls. Barry

Trust me, I am not fan of National. But while I agree with National's bloating ignorance and apparent disregard of the program at unit level, I disagree that program varies widely. Personally I'm very impressed by the similarities of unit programs across the US. Training materials are the primary structure that hold integrity in programs like the BSA. And while we all complain about the BSA training quality one way or another, it does keep the vast majority of the units running somewhat consistent respected programs. Yes, there are renegade programs, but they rarely last past one generation of adult leadership. In fact, one such leader recently on this forum was the SM of three Troops in the last 10 years. He didn't have to lead long before he was asked to move on by the parents who realized his program visions were not consistent or sound (or safe) with the BSA program. Truth of the matter, National is the main reason the BSA has the high level of respect from the communities that it has had for many decades. As much as I think National is the main cause of their problems today, I don't know how the program as a whole would manage without them. Barry

I would enjoy that very much, but not to observe your scouts experiencing true back country camping. I would just enjoy being with friendly like minded company. Barry

I’m skeptical gentlemen, the only time I’ve seen Troop Scouts in the last 20 years dig, umm “man-made” plumbing facilities was on high adventure trips in the wilderness. Brag all you want, but scouting hasn’t gained adventure just because the older Scouts used a trowel once a year. As for the BSA adding more adventure, I believe National figured it out. Badon Powell was wrong; scouting develops character and leadership simply by sending Scouts to Philmont once a year to backpack. That patrol method thing is a myth. Next year all troops are required spend a day at Six Flags. The Eagle is saved. Barry

Ah, so what you are saying is Hmm, ok. Ironically, scouters for the last 30 years, have been complaining that National has been taking too much adventure out of the program. You are saying National is now being forced to put adventure back in the program just to attract the girls. Interesting. Is this just hope, or do you know something we don't know? Barry

Protest too much, me thinks. Nobody was talking about changing advancement or DUMBING DOWN. The discussion was of image. You only needed to post your last sentence to express you opinion on that part of the discussion. Barry

I once gave a scoutmaster minute of how the Army Rangers in WWII recruited Eagle Scouts because they were already trained in leadership and first aid. One of our Eagles (he was about 25 at the time) told me that he had not taken the Eagle seriously until that SM Minute. It was just boring advancement until I colored with a higher nobility worth earning. My 88 year old dad has told me that one of his regrets in life is not earning the Eagle. He was about 3 merit badges away, but ran out of time because he was busy being the 16 year old SM of his troop. For him, the Eagle was the greater honor he missed. Qwazse has been clear that his daughter is very capable of earning the Eagle because she is a good outdoorsman, um woman. Is outdoorsmenship what the Eagle represents in our culture today. Qwazse has never mentioned his daughter wanting the Gold Award. Could three 15 mile hikes and one overnight backpacking trip becoming the high point of the Eagle? I'm not sure what the Eagle represents to our culture today. It doesn't sound like leadership or character. There is a member of this thread that has nothing kind to say about Eagles and makes a point that he will never not recruit one for unit leadership. I guess the image of the Eagle isn't at WWII Ranger standards anymore. I believe there is a clear line drawn between last years Boy Scouts of America, and the new program. It doesn't matter what they call it, the visual of girls defines the line. Good or bad? Who knows. But I feel an image change is inevitable, certainly for my dad. And the change will be accelerated with every change that is different from last years BSA program. Today they change the name, tomorrow the uniform. The Oath and Law aren't too far down the road. Will there be enough of last years Boy Scout program left for todays Eagles to respect their kids Eagle 15 years from now? Barry

Very True, but sometimes life serves us lemons. So we make lemonade. 11 of my 16 Webelos Eagled ,with 14 of them aging out at 17 years old. So, it can be done with some (ok a lot) creativity. Just for reference, our pack was 140 strong, AFTER THE SPLIT. Barry

I was asked to take three months off to give new SM some room. It was hard, but I believe it was as much a benefit for me as it was him. Barry

OK, you win the splitting hairs competition. But I believe my original point stands, living the oath and law is 99 percent more subjective than the rest of the requirements because it judges personal behavior. Barry

How does one experience repercussions of behavior without accountability. You lost me, the community (National) reputation of the Boy Scout Eagle is leadership, character and integrity. The BSA program mission is developing moral and ethical character. And you believe that the reputation of behavior outside of Scouting activities should be off limits! By the way, have you seen this? Its part of the Number 2 Eagle requirement: As a Life Scout, demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God, how you have lived the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your everyday life, and how your understanding of the Scout Oath and Scout Law will guide your life in the future. I guess this all comes down to personal opinion of how each of us rank the honor of Eagle against the dishonor of bad behavior. OK, I get that. But I don't feel you have much respect for those who have a different opinion. My Eagle son is a high school teacher and has had several students arrested for various actions from drugs to attacks of other students on school property. I will ask his opinion of how their actions rank with the reputation of the Eagle. Barry

I'm curious, are you saying experiencing the repercussions from bad behavior are not compassionate? Do you really believe that the skill of making moral and ethical decisions doesn't come at some cost of humility? Wow, you say that as is if we adults have a less than honorable intention with the Scout Spirit requirement. Could it not be that we judges of behavior just require a little observation before offering an opinion? Shesh. Who signs off that requirement first? Barry

Well, I was speaking specifically to the Eagle requirements. But if you want to push this to the lowest level, then as a BOR member, how do you feel about about asking the young scout to assist at preparing the meal, again, to prove his experience. I'm sure you are right that even tying a knot could have some subjectivity, but I feel you would get 99% agreement on an objective expectation. Barry

I agree that adults should be feel comfortable in expressing how they feel about habits and behaviors of scouts and adults in the program. Some discussion may be required for their education, but everyone should feel comfortable in opening the discussion. Not only did our adults understand my intolerance for colorful language, our scouts knew as well. But I disagree that adults shouldn't consider themselves as students of character change. Who is to say when everyone can't learn something new. I have many many stories of adults having to correct their behavior for the sake of living the oath and law (myself included), but I will only mention the one of the lawyer visiting a meeting to express their client's concern of one of our leaders bad judgement of how they role model to our scouts. Leaving the parents choice of getting our attention aside, we found the adult changing his behavior the easier route to the solution. I believe, and taught this in my adult leadership classes, any adult who is not open to suggestions for change does not belong in the scouting program because as the scouts change and mature, so must the adults change and mature just to keep up. Add to that, if we are to assume scouts to grow into adult character, we must accept them, and ourselves as equals to develop that respect. Barry

WBers are an easy target when the subject brings some focus on them. But, I've watched just about everyone from leaders with religious opinions to brand new Tiger leaders taking a hit because they use incorrect pronounciations of common Boy Scout terms in their questions. We have had several posters on this forum (some kicked off) who showed no respect for anyone but themselves, that includes scouts. So, I agree, it's the Scout Law and Oath that are taking the biggest beating. Part of the problem with the Woodbadgers in our District was the District Committee's automatic acceptance of using ticket items to fill district and even council activities coordinators. WHO APPROVED THAT? We manage to nip that in the bud several years back. But, that doesn't mean some Woodbadgers don't let the beads go to their head. Still, the same can be said of adults who are given the responsibility of Leadership in their unit, district, and council. I have watch and cleaned up more messes by incompetent district/council volunteers than any Woodbadger I can think of. However, the fact is we belong to a volunteer organization which accepts just about anyone's knowledge, skills, or egos in running this complicated machine. I admit to being very humbled when I stepped over to the district and council operations. You can't imagine how much incompetence keeps the cogs of this program moving forward. I have more respect for the professionals patience when I was outside looking in. I will admit to finding myself looking in a mirror more than once when it comes to commenting about other scouters. Setting the example of the Oath and Law in actions is a lot hard than most scouters realize. Barry

The Scout Spirit is the one subjective part of the requirements. The rest of the checklist is pretty much just objective actions. Granted, rarely does National refuse the Eagle for lacking Scout Spirit because it is so subjective, but then I've never heard National having to consider an objective arrest as part of Scout Spirit. I agree with qwazse, this comes under the heading of tough love. We must consider what is best for the young man's best future. While the Eagle represents the highest moral values, the title is just status. Character and integrity is measure by actions, not status. Barry

Is there a “Shaking my head” emoji? Barry

In the old days, the response was first class scouts are trained for survival in the woods. There is very little the adults can add that the trained first class scout doesn’t already know. Many adults today don’t understand the trained skills of a true first class scout. Ive told this story before: our senior scouts set up a simulated car wreck for the rest of the troop hiking to the campsite. As the scouts realized they were walking into a very serious accident, they hesitated at first, then walked quickly to the scene. Once they realize the scene was set up, you could feel the relief. The senior scouts spent another 45 minutes reviewing the fake injuries and then we hiked another mile to camp. But the troop was the first to arrive on a roll over accident on our way to summer camp Two months later. We had a couple of doctors who attended the victims while the rest of us kept the scouts back to prevent them from getting hit by another car. I will never forget a scout who looked at me and said, “you train us for this and then won’t let us help.” The scouts were trained and ready. Make your parents proud of their sons by training them for the unexpected. barry