Eagledad

Takes me back. Haircuts look 70s/80s. After a weekend of cooking fires, all my gear smelled like smoke. My mom made me take off my clothes in the garage. Women leaders and gas stoves were two changes that stood out to me when I came back in 1990. Cooking over a fire was a fun treat for my older sons Patrol. Barry

Community visibility is very important and scouting has been going in the opposite direction. My favorite community service was Scouting for Food because scouts had to personally meet the public at their front door and introduce themselves, then explain the service they were providing. 90% of our community was meeting scouts face to face experiencing scouts doing their best. Our scouts would meet afterwards for refreshments and they all had great stories of the people they met. We made it fun, but our scouts looked forward to it each year. No other event gave scouting near that much priceless exposure to the community and food collected required a couple of tractor trailers rigs to haul it away. Our district and council didn't understand the value of this activity and started to scale it down so it would take less time. They split it into two weekends. On the first weekend, the scouts (and volunteers) would stuff Scouting For Food bags in each mail boxes with instructions to leave the bags of food on the front door the next week to pickup. The scouts (and volunteers again) spent their next weekend picking up the food bags. They manage to almost completely eliminate the face to face meeting between the scouts and community , they forced the units to organize another weekend for adult volunteers help the scouts and the food collected was reduced to half because folks either forgot about leaving food on their door or their wasn't a cute cub scout asking in his quiet little voice for a donation. When I got on the council training team, I manage to sell the council into going back to the old method. But, local politics got in the way that same year and the scouts were kicked out of the Food collection program. If I were back, I would start by creating a District Scouting for Food drive. Next, I would recruit a scouter with the skills of social media and start publishing lots and lots of stories about what local units are doing in their community. Scouting is such a cool program but nobody sees it. I would use social media to bring the program to into the light. I would at a district local level push Scout Sunday. Provide ideas for the units three months a head of time to work their the churches to provide some kind of service on that day, or even campout on the Church grounds so the member could visit a campsite. Then I would ask the local government to help find and assign units to take care of the city by picking up trash at the local parks, schools and public roads. Scouts somewhere in town each weekend would be seen in uniforms serving their community. I would recruit a scouter with the skills for the District Activities Chair to coordinate troops to do some practice hiking and backpacking through town for the purpose of exposing the fun side of scouting. Set up camp on friday night at the CO, then get up the next morning for a five mile hike though town to camp at a local church. Get up the next morning and serve pancakes to the church members before service. Our Council did something pretty clever by doing a council level pinewood derby at the mall. Scouting fun, shouldn't we see that side. Maybe even consider doing a Camporee at a local park. How about canoe orienteering at a local lake we scouts have to cross the lake several times to hopefully end up at the right place. In ten years time, everyone in the community should have some knowledge of the scouting program and feel good about it's contribution to the community. Barry

I don't know how much of a religious person you think of yourself, but your last paragraph reads like a prayer. We've known you on this forum since you were a scout. I've enjoyed watching grow into the man you are today, and I am excited for the man you are becoming. Thank you for opening yourself to us and sharing a bit of your life. I must admit, through the years I have you found as inspiring to this forum as much as you have inspired those who are personally involve with your scouting ambitions and experiences. You truly live up to "Loving this scouting stuff". Barry

I can't see how suing could work for the parents. The CO has legal right to ask anyone to leave. But lets say the parents won, the CO simply dumps the program. Barry

This is a great idea for most troops. Our troop did something like this, but our patrols were dropped off at a patrol campsite on Friday night and then back packed 5 miles into the common campsite Saturday. I would even add to Buggies idea of adults picking up the Patrols Sunday on their way out of the area. Barry

Must all forums are generally negative because the format was built as a resource for seeking information. Think of how many forums you visited just to learn about a subject. Folks with successful experiences don't generally seek to brag to the world. We come here to seek solutions, so the causes of the situations get a great deal of attention. And a lot of the program has changed in the last 30 years. My passion is "boy run" "patrol method" scouting, so I came here in my early days to learn more about how to implement patrol method. Now I hang around to spread the fruits of my experiences. 20 years ago the Patrol Method forum carried easily 25% of the total Scouter.com discussions. Now, it gets maybe one a month. That in of itself is indicative of how the program has been changing. But, I'm so starved for a patrol method discussion, I might have to ask questions under a different name. Hmm, what name should I use. Kudu? No, no, that one sounds to much like a musical instrument. Beavah? No, no, that just sounds weird. I know BOBWHITE! Oh, wait? That name leaves a bad taste for some reason, I don't know why. Thinking, thinking........ Barry

We solved it with patrol inspections. If the patrol had dirty dishes, they were hit hard. The prize, I don't remember what it was, has to be worth effort. However, this may be indicative of a bigger challenge for you; your patrols are not bonding into a team. I'm sure this is a problem in other areas as well, it just hasn't risen to the level of adults yet. There a lots of reasons for patrols not bonding, but basically the activities your troop is doing isn't demanding a team effort. I'm guessing your troop activities aren't really requiring the patrols to function as patrols. Building a team starts out as a slow process, but once the scouts feel their contribution makes a difference to the performance of the TEAM, they start to kick in. Also, you leaders aren't being respected as leaders. They just don't have enough know-how (leadership skills) to move the patrol team forward. A big big part of respecting a leader is the leader respecting his position as a servant, not the top man who gives directions. Servant leaders have to attend the needs of the team. Team building requires goals for the team to work toward. Team building requires a leader who serves the team members so that they can function at their best. In my example, our goal was to force the patrols to work as a team to get their chores done before morning assembly. We used time as the force to make them figure out how to get the task accomplished before assembly. The troop may even need some training like showing how scouts who aren't assigned to KP are cleaning up tents and the campsite. There is always something to do. And the better the patrols get at inspection, the more difficult inspections should get. We also did this with breaking camp. We found that the scouts like to stop a store on the way home for candybars or ice cream. We force the schedule to allow only one hour to break camp. Six months later they were breaking camp in almost have the time. Don't stop at inspections, figure out how to make all your activities force the patrol to work together just to accomplish the task. Developing as a team develops better leadership skills as well as following skills. Barry

Good post. I have done the first three, number four is a little out there for me. We aren't looking for future priest in our program, just some consideration of a higher spirit. Someone here already mentioned it, but scouts who struggle with a higher being do tend to relate godly actions to character. As much as we hear all the bad things about religion, most people tend to think of god as something good. Good actions are godly actions. So, in my experience, scouts don't have much trouble finding an example or two of duty to god. I have never heard of a SM refusing a scout membership because he questioned belief in god. It happens a lot all the time because the natural process of maturing into biological adults is questioning ourselves and our beliefs. We have had many scouts with atheist parents. The parents know full well what scouting is all about and they want their kids experience the program. One of the parents is an Eagle Scout. I believe these are progressive in the true sense because they want their kids to choose their own path with religion. I'm honored they use the scouting program as part of that journey. Of course, not all religious people are good people or make good role models, and they should be filtered out of the program as well. I have many stories about scouts struggling with identifying with duty to god, but I remember one who had a terrible abusive home life. That was 25 years ago and my wife and I still talk about him. He found his safe place in the troop and loved it. He also brought a lot of baggage from his personal life, one of which was worshiping the devil. It was not a problem for us because considering this kids life, devil worshiping was the least of the challenges for either of us. And, we knew he was only doing it to lash out at his parents. But what a kid, he was so excited about scouting that he would get up a 5;00 am and try to get everybody to start the day. He jumped into the pool at summer camp for the swimmers test only to find out he didn't know how to swim. If it was sc scouting, he would dive in with all his heart. Any day camping with the troop was the best day of his life. He made everyone feel good to be a scout, but he made the adults feel good to give him a chance. Anyway, he and I were chatting one day and he told me he was looking for a church and wanted to know which churches the adults attended. Role modeling is with out a doubt the most important element for growth in scouting. Barry

OK Barry

If you are asking at the global level; history shows that the pendulum eventually swings away from extremist back toward god. If you are asking the scout level; scouts control their interpretation of god. Quote from previous post: Well, it's a bit more complex than that, but yes, determining right and wrong at cultural level has to come from god. I believe youth learn most of their discernment from observing the role models in their community. Humility is the source of intended good while pride is the source of intended bad. Man by nature is undisciplined and prideful and their selfishness drives them drive toward intended bad. On the other hand, teaches man to live by the intent of humility. A disciplined community of humble role models can only come from god guidance because man's natural selfishness and pride will never agree on a community of humble actions. Not without force anyway. Force is not humility. The creators of the Scouting movement thought much the same. Otherwise why would they give scouts the Oath and Law to direct their behavior if they already had the habits of determining right and wrong? There is a consistent stand of god, just not a constant following. As for duty to county, there are many actions that support duty to country, one being service projects. Also respect of the political system, armed forces and so on. Barry

What if he doesn't convert. First Class requirement: Demonstrate Scout spirit by living the Scout Oath and Scout Law. Tell how you have done your duty to God and how you have lived four different points of the Scout Law (different from those points used for previous ranks) in your everyday life. Will the scout be satisfied with experiencing only 7 of the 8 Methods of Scouting? BArry

Most humans are followers, so societal influence sets the standard of right and wrong. That is either god or the human who holds the biggest stick. God doesn't change, but man elects leaders every 4 years. Your generalizing doesn't advance an intellectual discussion. Shesh. Religion puts integrity and commonality in the virtues of the Oath and Law. Without religion, the scout is subject to whatever the SM feels is right or wrong in the moment. Without the consistent standard of god, the program of building character could not have last 110 years. And it certainly wouldn't have lasted as just a youth camping program. In 99 percent of scouting, the scout sets the religious benchmark of his experience. The one percent is usually the bad acting by adults we discuss on this forum. Barry

And what if the Muslim or Jewish parents of those youth demand your church start teaching their religion to all the youth? Can't be done. Atheist adults have no more desire for the present BSA Oath and Law than the teachings of your church. Mediocrity requires giving up the virtues that make the program special. Barry

Not really, not in the big picture anyway. The problem with religions on the micro scale is they let the devil get into the details. Why would they, they have the Oath and Law. Well, it's a bit more complex than that, but yes, determining right and wrong at cultural level has to come from god. I believe youth learn most of their discernment from observing the role models in their community. Humility is the source of intended good while pride is the source of intended bad. Man by nature is undisciplined and prideful and their selfishness drives them drive toward intended bad. On the other hand, teaches man to live by the intent of humility. A disciplined community of humble role models can only come from god guidance because man's natural selfishness and pride will never agree on a community of humble actions. Not without force anyway. Force is not humility. The creators of the Scouting movement thought much the same. Otherwise why would they give scouts the Oath and Law to direct their behavior if they already had the habits of determining right and wrong? Barry

It's risky using scripture out of context to justify a motive. Do not be deceived: “Evil company corrupts good habits. 1 COR 15:33 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness? 2 COR 6:14 Whoever walks with the wise becomes wise, but the companion of fools will suffer harm. Proverbs 13:20 Jesus preaches to love all and not judge their eternity with God. But not to the detriment of loosing the relationship with God. When the program looses it's mission of "prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law", then it's gone too far. My opinion is the National has lost sight of the mission and change the program to the detriment of loosing the values of the program. Barry

Excellent question. Consider my example of the YMCA. Do families today attend YMCA activities for character development, or for entertainment? Ironically, the discussion last week about making the Eagle more attractive with outdoor activity requirements shows how entertainment is already becoming the greater vision for the scouting program. A godless program for adults would certainly be easier because the definition of "the right thing to do", will be a reaction based from emotions in that moment. That is a lot easier because acceptable behavior will be defined by the member with the strongest pride. The proactive values of god (law and oath) encourage the actions from the strongest humility. A "the right thing to do" program will not be boy run because the scouts will have to wait for the adults to tell them the right or wrong behavior. Kind of scary since every adult likely has some different definition of "the right thing to do". Barry

If you want atheist, then you need to find support a movement to remove god from this scouting program. It's that easy, or hard. Either god is part of developing ethical and moral role modeling, or it's not. Barry

Sadly, many folks miss the point of learning by doing. Difference isn't always good, and experience isn't always growth. Scouting in an environment of practicing human values for a lifetime. I'm tired of defending a 100 year old program that takes a boy in his most influential years and turns him into the best kind of man who lives the oath and law to all people, for all people. So, I'm only going to say you are flat out wrong. Just because I don't accept your way of life doesn't mean I have less respect for the Oath and Law. The scouting program diluting into an after school outdoor program will only carry the respect of such. And that is fine, the YMCA switched from a character development program into a family fitness program and it survives. But it can't be said the boys whose lives were changed forever by a program designed to develop the most caring men of the world today's family soccer players. Barry

Yes, pretty unfair. Flying is not only the safest mode of public transportation, it is also the safest mode of private transportation. Not only is it safe for pilots and passengers, it is also one of the safer modes for the public on the ground. Private pilots have to perform a flight review every two years with a flight instructor to maintain currency, as well as check up by a FAA certified doctor. All aircraft have to be inspected a minimum of once a year, which requires some disassembly by a FAA certified Inspection mechanic. The inspection of commercial aircraft are inspected more often. Barry

I'm fine with the present application. I'd even be satisfied with NJ's sort-of religious qualifications. It's his occupation of law that comes into question. Barry

Yes, but I wouldn't call it a faith based organization as much as a religious values organization. Probably splitting hairs. Yes, we agree. In fact, I believe the same of youth who struggle with homosexuality, transgenderism, and other struggles. The issue is adults. Pragmatically, an organization should be allowed to one without the other. Realistically , that is impossible in this culture. There is extremism everywhere. We had a troop that only recruited home schooled scouts. They didn't last very long, but it's an example of adults blinded by their passion Barry

Isn't that like saying the Christian thing to do is hire an alcoholic cigarette smoking drug dealer for a baby sitter hoping the goodness of your children will rub off on him? Actually, it would be like an atheist saying to a Catholic and Lutheran boy he doesn't believe there is a god. Barry

What I'm saying is "Religion is the bases for the foundation of Scout Law and Oath", not the foundation of the Oath and Law. The Oath and Law are character values that have to come from somewhere. If that source is the SM, then the Oath and Law change depending on the character of the Scoutmaster from day to day. But the sources is god, so it doesn't change from SM to SM or from unit to unit. God is a single source that never changes. Now you may disagree because there are several different religions with several different interpretations, but for each family, the holy god is personal and above all. And what example does a godless SM set for the scouts? The values of scouting are supported by god, so how does that make sense? Barry

Shesh, not only are you going anyway, you opened it up to several discussions over the years. Let's start with this and see where it leads; God teaches Christians to love all, starting first with God. Just like the Scout Oath guides the scout to do his best and his duty to all, starting first with god. Maybe what is missing today with a lot of Christians is they aren't starting first with God. Barry

I think you would find the programs those of us who emphasize religion more in these discussion are about the same as those who emphasize it less. But the discussion is about the premise of the scouting program. Religion is the bases for the foundation of Scout Law and Oath, which are the values for preparing young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetime. As long as the values reflect back to god, then the scout leader can refer and balance his judgement to the family. And the scout can balance Scoutmaster's judgment with his god. God is single point quality assurance. Barry