Eagledad

Unless laws are broken, council would rather the units deal with these issues first. Our experience has been that when the parents are brought in at the very beginning, these issues quickly work themselves out. In fact, I can't think of a situation where we had continued problems once the parents were brought into the discussion. They don't like bad behavior anymore than unit leaders. It's only when the unit disciplines their son before notifying the parents that lawyers get involved. It is really that simple, but I am amazed of how many scouters believe their scout leader title qualifies them to discipline other parents' sons without notification. Many, even think they are setting an example for the parents of how to deal with bad behavior. I even see it even on this forum. But, Scouters can be hot heads too. Summer camps are bit more challenging because of distance and the stress cause by long physically demanding week in the out door environment. I used to coach our adults about mid week to be alert to the stress and to help support each other if they feel one of us over reacting. The camp staff will also be glad to help. They like to nip problems in the bud. Worst case scenarios, we call the parents to pick their son up. We give the parents basic information, but don't discuss discipline until the troop gets back and the adults had time to rest. 9 times out of 10, the parents have taken care of the situation. Again, parents don't like bad behavior anymore than unit adult leaders. It is also a good idea to give a report to the COR or District leadership, if for no other reason then to have another opinion. In our case, the COR could care less, but our District Commissioner was very helpful in these situations. But, everyone outside of the unit would rather the unit deal with the situation first before being "pulled" into the drama. I found the only time we pulled outsiders in was with adult bad behavior because parents generally handled scout bad behavior. The OP here has a more difficult situation because the spouse has created some confusion, but that doesn't change these suggestions. The unit should start with the parents, and then move up if they must. Barry

I grew up on the mountain breakfast as a scout. It was a breakfast favorite. But we never used the dutch oven. We did it all in a pot on the fire. Took about 20 minutes if we brown the potatoes with the sausage. Saved 10 minutes if we boiled the potatoes the night before and three them with the eggs. Mmmm mmm. Now my son cooks them for his family. Barry

The reasoning behind split units not working well is the adults. Successful units generally have one or two adults with the Vision and program ideas for success. Some adults are just good big picture visionaries who keep the rest of the adults on track. So, when the unit splits, one unit is left without the visionary driving adult. Understanding that reality might motivate a few adults to follow and learn from the visionary adult. Maybe even have that adult visit the other unit often enough to advise. But, keep in mind that all adults have different experiences of life and expectations of program processes. If leading a scouting unit were so easy, they would all be successful. Of course everyone has their own idea of success, but If I were a new adult looking to build a new unit off another unit, I would look for the most successful unit I could find. They are doing something right. I agree that is an ideal plan. But understand that every unit leadership has an ideal plan. So consider why some units do so much better. The one advantage of the new girls program is that the leaders are forced to admit they are starting something new in unknown territory, which may allow them enough humility to seek knowledge instead of following their own idealistic theories. Barry

You might be right. Statistically, a 2nd unit that splits from a very successful first unit is rarely as successful, while the first continues it's success. The risk of failure was so high for the 2nd unit that our district chairman only considered a split as a last resort. Which made council angry. I know in theory linked troops are a sound idea to get the girls side up, but that hasn't been proven successful in reality. So, the two teachable adults might be required for the 2nd troop. Barry

My deepest apologies. I'm at an age that when I look back, I've seen how my thoughts, attitudes and perceptions changed on the path my experiences. I was only trying to say that as you gain experiences, you will likely see these discussions differently. Some of the posts appear condescending and disrespectful, but when we read them in the context of who sent the post and considering their level of experience on the subject, asking what exactly they meant is the better approach. A further explanation might some food for thought, or just as important, give the other person a moment of pause to step back on their words. I have empathy for your struggle to feel as comfortable with experienced male leaders as you do with the female leaders. It may be you have a timid personality, but I agree with the other poster, nothing like experience to feel confident with advice and guidance. And remember, integrity comes from the humility of learning, not from loud words fueled by pride and arrogance. We all have our reasons for the 1 hour a week we give to the BSA. Some are noble, some are not. The difference is who you are trying to serve. Barry

Wow! Some of the last few post are kind of scary. To answer your question, call the SM first to learn exactly where the troop is with your son. Then you can discuss better the future. Barry

WM describes our pack. We also make the pinewood derby night family night. We usually do it on a Friday night so as not to worry about school the next day. The first 30 minutes are siblings racing old cars built in previous years. We sell a meal of hot day, chips, cookie and coke for a very reasonable price. The CM gets the crowd doing cheers and tells jokes during the quiet periods. While the scouts build and race the cars, the evening is truly a family night out. To keep the time reasonable (90 minutes), we run two tracks (borrow one from another pack) with each scout seeing his car race a minimum of around 8 times. Chairs are set as close to the tracks as possible so everyone can see and feel being part of the race. Ah, those were good times. Barry

Quite right. What I meant by agenda is a program created specifically to keep older scouts around. I believe 80% of Venturing Crews are created to keep older scouts in the program, not to add an additional adventure opportunity. That motivation drives toward the wrong kind of program and eventually looses most of the scouts. Older scouts still need the responsibilities of running a troop program, but the program should be designed so that scouts don't feel forced or trapped into responsibilities and activities. Some older scouts are good leaders, most are not. The rest of the older scouts are still part of a team and they should be expected to be good team members that support a common agenda. Those 10 adults that go on our camp outs were more than ready and willing to help at what ever was expected or asked of them because the effort in those task were trivial to their motivation of spending time with like minded friends. Barry

No, but having the clear vision of a youth Scouting experience does have a very distinct advantage in building a patrol method program. Yep, that traits certainly help in building a quality program, but experience and history show that starting with the vision of experience has an distinct advantage for getting patrol method up to speed. Does that really surprise you? We will just have to agree to disagree. But let me ask you, when building your dream house, are you hiring a contractor who is building his first, or an experienced contractor. Your response not logical for finding real solutions. I also believe that 99.99 percent of men without a youth scouting experience are at a distinct disadvantage. But, the new membership policy will likely bring in a lot more inexperienced moms than dads. I believe you are being more offensive than me in your response because you are letting a bad choice of words ignore important facts. I'm not sure I would say that fact that way, but I certainly believe that. I know you are an engineer, but in my work, I rely and facts and figures to determine direction and design, not theories and emotions. If we can see that the new influx of adults joining don't have clue, we should prepare ourselves with that fact to better deal with the future of the program. 21st Century Wood Badge was a reaction to the negative effects of the new adult membership policy. We (well I) know better now. Your comments would be more respected if you acted less offended and were more correcting. I have no problem with the fact that a large influx of moms are coming and that will create a greater challenge for the BSA, or whatever they call it. While wording could have been better, the facts don't change, a challenge is coming. Those who start looking for ideas now will be that much farther ahead in the future. If the good-ol-boys club (which presently is a large portion female) and the inexperienced moms influx are to move forward, they must both agree with the realities and work together for solutions. Barry

When I was SM, our troop averaged around 10 adults at every camp out. We are a very boy run program, so those adults knew they weren't hanging around interfering with the scouts. Oh, if the program allowed them to participate (like shooting sports or bicycling or something fun) without intruding on the patrol's patrol method, they could be seen in the mix. But in general, the adults weren't in sight of the boys. So where were they? 40% of our scouts were 14 and older. I once polled them to learn exactly what kept them hanging around. Only 25% said it was the outdoors adventure part of the program. So why did the rest of them hang around? Are the 14 and older scouts much different from the adults that came on our camp outs? I was very active in the Scuba Diving Explorers for a couple of years. I had so much fun with that Post, but because of the cost of travel for diving, I attended very few scuba outings. I just enjoyed hanging out with adults who liked the water. I was the president of your collegiate flying club. We were very active, to the point of presenting airshows that included the Thunderbirds and Confederate Air Force. Over 60% of our officers and most active members were not pilots. There are a lot of theories on older scouts and keeping them around, but I learned the hard way that all of us are adults. Some of us just have more of life's experiences than others. But, we are all adults. So, why do we struggle to treat the 14 year old scouts equal to parent age adults in the troop, or even Crews? The adults in our troop just wanted to hang out with like minded people in the out doors. No real agenda, just hang out. The other 3/4 of our older scouts just wanted to hang out with like minded people in the out doors. Is there no room in the Troop/Venturing program for scouts to just hang out with scouts? Does there always have to be some agenda to sway, coax, or bribe scouts to come? 3 out of 5 Venturing crews fail after three years. Most troops loose 90% of their 15 and older scouts. Ironically, the most adults of failed Venturing Crews came from Troops of failed older scout programs. The challenge for the parent age adults is building a troop/venturing program where young adult scouts can sometimes just hang out with their like mind friends without any agenda intended to bribe them there. Barry

OK, then 99.99 percent of women don't have a youth boy scout experience. All women have a lot to offer. I have raised and trained many good female leaders. Many. And many of them have more to offer than men (Well yes, because I trained them). But, we have found that a Troop without experienced adults take twice as long to get up to speed as units with even just one experienced scouter. Youth experience can make that much difference. I used to teach teachable moments in our council. I didn't call the course that, but the material was exactly what qwazse described. Learn how to not let your fears stop the boys experience. Little by little everyday. Some men needed the course as much as women. But in general, all moms needed the course. I believe you are being overly sensitive, would it feel better to talk about scouters as "X"s and "O"s? Well I guess now "Z"s too. As you are learning, running a quality program is hard. It requires adults questioning and evaluating all the time how the program is moving. An adult run troop is a lot easier than a patrol method troop because controlling a herd in one corral is easier than working with each individual scout in the open field at their maturity and pace. Do you really want you make it harder by believing in the good-ol-boys are out to get you? I assure you good-ol-boys clubs are few and very far between. As you gain experience in this scouting stuff, a light bulb is going to open your eyes. You will see that boys really are different than girls, even as adults. And, working with those differences is a lot easier than working against them. I know you think you understand the differences now, but if you did, you wouldn't let the little truths bother you. You would use them to make the rough road of the bigger picture smoother. Barry

Ok, I’m sure you’re right. But when I meet a new mom in the troop, I’m 100 % sure she doesn’t have any Boy Scout youth experience. With dads, I start by asking if. You may feel that’s a bad rap, but how does a unit deal the situation if they aren’t willing to admit reality. That being said, I’m guessing the discussions here of problematic adult leaders are 4 men to every woman. Barry

I’m a little surprised you took issue with teachable. You have been on this forum long enough to see that we harp on this very thing a lot. The adults have to learn more and learn faster than the scouts just to stay out of their way. And scouters without a youth scouting experience are double the risk because they don’t know what to look for from the youths perspective. Adults simply have different ambitions than youth at this age and if an adult can’t calm their pride with humility, they will take the fun out of the scouts program. Qwazse colors “teachable” very well: I used to teach in scoutmasters fundamentals that fear is the main cause of adult directed boy run programs. The adults have push gradually push past their fears. Many here, including moderaters and forum owner, don’t care for my opinions on the subject of girls, but am skeptical because the program has struggled with the last influx of inexperienced adults. Pride and ignorance are hard hurdles to overcome. Barry

100% agree. I have several stories of extremely shy, introverted or learning disabled scouts who turned into inspiring leaders simply because they displayed great confidence. Another way to identify confident scouts is to observe who the new scouts like to hang around. Instinctive nature drives those with no confidence to seek safe shelter of strength. Confidence is an instinctive show strength. When I was a young scout, Arrowmen where very confident outdoorsmen. The OA requirements of that time sorted out super scouts from the scouts. They were special and always had the natural following of young scouts. Barry

I had a rough drive to work this morning, thanks for bringing me calm. I believe Kimberlee's article is profound for scouting. Independence is the path to confidence. Confidence leads to initiating actions and making decisions toward set goals. I am amazed with the number of boys who join our troop that lack the confidence to step forward with any decisions. Scouting develops self-confidence through the path of independence. We watch it everyday. Adults today understand how independence leads to self-confidence, but they don't trust it. They put independence off until they feel their scouts are more mature. Ironic because that is putting the cart before the horse. The McCafferty story is intriguing because Kimberlee sees how the tiny independent actions in the 8 Methods are actually the big steps toward confidence of stepping forward in life's challenges. Give the naive shy new scout a quick guide for cold calling adult strangers in the MB process, and he learns the big skill of communicating with strangers. Oh, the parents may need to practice the guide before the call, but the true independent actions change the scout forever, if only just a little. In our minds, learning the skill and building the confidence of communicating with strangers is far more valuable for an 11 year old than the MB skills he is taking. We found that 3 MBs was all most scouts needed for the confidence of calling strangers. That same scout will be calling strangers for scouting events the rest of his scouting career. And even learning the basic scout skills develops the habits toward independence and confidence. We don't sit new scouts down and teach them knots, we get them to set a goal for initiating the process for learning the knots and completing that goal. The goal for the first knot is very simple like learning the square knot in the next hour. Most important however, is the big step of independence by initiating that goal by simply asking to learn the knot. Of course as the skills get harder and more complicated, setting a goal of learning the skill and developing a plan becomes more complicated. So, we guide scouts to write down the goals in their books. That way they can review and remind themselves of their goals. The SM can review their goals at a SM Conference. But, the simple skill of learning to initiate a process to a goal leads to a proficient 14 year old Scout planning a weekend camp out for his Patrol. I've watch that process repeat itself hundreds of times. Older Scouts who joined our troop without those developed skills are often intimidated with the expectations and responsibilities of our scouts the same age. Developing the confidence to step out of a comfort zone starts simply by giving the scouts the independence to practice initiating the tiny decisions. Maturity is the result of the confidence gained by the little decisions, not the mastery of the skills. Developing maturity is the result of a program the adults develop for practicing independence. It's not easy for the adults, but the efforts are rewarding. Good article. Barry

The only badge I encourage the first year is swimming because it’s required for most water activities. And, summer camps have pretty good teachers. I had several scouts start camp as a beginner and leave passing the swim test. Barry

True, but who goes where and when can be confusing for unit level volunteers. One example is the Webelos requirement to fill out a Troop application and talk to a SM. Not a big deal on the surface, but some Scoutmasters might submit those applications, not realizing (or don't care), that the Webelos is no longer a member of the pack. And officially the scout can no longer earn anymore badges, like AOL. Luckily, council goes in a fixes the problem. But, the numbers are shifted. That's not too bad, but where the numbers really get messed around are the new Scouts joining the troops. In reality, the scout submitted the troop application without ever showing up. That scout will be counted as a successful crossover and stay on the books for possibly up to a year. Same goes with Troop to Venturing. That can change the troop membership numbers as much as 5% in a district, and more in a unit. Add it up for a council, or even the nation, and it influences decisions. I know the Council Pros get acussed of fudging the numbers for their own benefit, but I always had compassion for them having to run around looking for the holes in their numbers. Barry

Good or Bad? The discussion isn't about making good or bad decisions. It's about the accuracy of information being provided for making decisions. Barry

We fully understand your pain the last few years. The difference between explaining the situation logically, or emotional, is the same difference as being scout-like, or not. Email might be a good segway into the discussion because it provides you the time to be pragmatic with your thoughts. Barry

Many here have expressed how the successful recruiting is motivational for progressing forward. Several have commented how they plan to implement the girls and the leaders into units, and types of units. Barry

And this is why I don't trust published membership numbers. I will even give the pros the benefit of the doubt and say there are no shenanigans going on, but the shuffling of memberships in different units at different times of the years blurs out reality. It drives the district member committees nuts, especially if when using the numbers to plan program gains and looses like Tigers, Webelos Crossovers, and first year Scout dropouts. I don't trust the new girls published numbers as a result of my experience. Just look at the discussions on this forum to see how those numbers are being used both tactically and motivationally for future planning. National got away with inaccuracies in the past because the deep pockets funding and large membership compensated for bad program planning. But the BSA may have lost their safety nets. Good luck. Barry

So very sad. I will say that I have felt hostility toward white and religious people from members on this forum. If it's here on this forum, it is certainly out in the community. Our troop once experienced this sort of tension when visiting a popular zoo in another state. In general, wearing the BSA uniform brings out the best of people we meet in our travels, but not during this visit. That was about 15 years ago. I can't imagine such a visit today. Yes, in the light of the scout law, we should probably prepare the scouts in how to respond to this sort of open hostility and confrontation. Barry

It was the brainchild of a couple of scoutmasters with a good reputation for building successful patrol method programs. The way it worked is after all the participants (14 or over) arrived at camp, the course SM asked all the scouts to create PLCs of 6 members. No scouts from the same troop could be in the same PLC. Then each PLC had to elect the SPL and assign a PLC position to each member. Once all the participants had a PLC and position (only took about 15 minutes), the SM gave a 15 minute lesson of how to run the PLC meeting that was also described in their SPL handbook. then they were tasked to create the course agenda for the next day that included everything from getting up to lights out. The only requirement was scheduling 4 one hour class sessions, 2 more PLC meetings and a campfire or troop meeting. Each of the PLCs agendas were thrown in a hat, then the one drawn out was the agenda that is used with that PLCs Spl running the agenda. It made for an interesting week, and the SMs gave the results rave reviews. However, National required we replace it with their brand new course, NYLT. And the experiment was over. Most of the staff were graduates from the National JLT course at Philmont. They had a blast playing the adult leader parts. Barry

Like all committees and organizations, the quality of performance is only as good as its leaders. An example of what the committee can do is how we approached teaching the new SM Specific course in 2000. Council presented the course when it was introduced to see how well it was written. It was terrible. Roughly a 9 hr course divided in three parts that had no flow and often contradicted each other. (I had learned later that the three parts were written by three different “volunteers “ authors who never met each other. They sent their parts to National who wrote the final syllabus.) Anyway, our council training committee discussed ideas of how to better present the material. We came up with several ideas for presenting the course better, which several districts (including ours) experimented with. And several good versions were discovered. Now, I know a couple of districts would have tried something on their own (including ours), but because council took the lead, all the districts were presented with the results of several different versions. I was also lead on experimenting with a new idea of a Council JLT course. The new idea was a boy run style where the participants developed the course syllabus and schedule each day. The course was replaced by NYLC, but I have not ever seen anything like it before or since. A lot of folks seem to be trying to fix a lot of problems on this forum lately. If you have the will and personality, council is one of many paths to effectively make change. Barry

You have the most leverage to make changes at the council level. But you have to have the respect of the committee.