Eagledad

I'm not sure that is the case. Most of the added processes I've observed over the years came from perfectionist. Their interpretation of the process is actually more work or grief for them (as well as the scout), but that's ok because it's being done the right way. To them, the more complicated process is actually more efficient because it tracks all the dotting of the "I"s and crossing of all the "T"s. It's really what National meant to say. Barry

I was part of a polled group when National was writing NYLT. Very little of the results I saw are in the course. I'm very skeptical because my observation is that National interprets data to fit in their predetermined plan instead of using it to question the present program. Take for example First Class in the First Year commitment. National found in their study that scouts who earn a first class rank in one year tend to stay in the troop for at least three years. So, they encouraged units to get scouts to first class in one year, even putting that promise in writing in all the Scout Handbooks. You can guess where that went. The program switched from one of adventure where scouts can also advance, to a program of advancement and, ... well keep advancing. One of the most common Wood Badge ticket items after that promised commitment was getting all new scouts to first class quickly. However, we found from research in our area that scouts who just stayed in the program at least one year, regardless of rank, likely stayed in the troop for at least 3 years. In fact, we found that if a scout was still active after their first summer camp, odds were they were committed for several years. We also found that the troops with higher numbers of scouts who stay in after a year had the more active fun outdoor programs. They were the better performing overall programs in our area. Scouts in those troops tended to advance to 1st Class within 14 months. Add one other statistic that the highest drop out rate in the BSA is the first year scouts. Hmmmm. So, how should a responsible district advise troops knowing all that data? By the way, when we looked at the numbers of first year drop out rates at a National level 20 years AFTER National instigated First Class in the First Year program along with Troop guides and age based patrols, we found that the first year drop out rates were the same. In fact, I was told that the rate was about the same since the 60s, although I have no idea where they got those results. That attacked the wrong part of the troop program, so they ended up with the same results. So, while I'm glad National is trying to use real time data to improve the program, they have never shown me that the data results preceeded the agenda. Yes, I know that my earned skepticism is a downer in this discussion, but consider it a warning for keeping an open mind. Of course National could surprise me. Barry

Yep. This is a very educational thread. Almost ironic. Barry

I'm sure you mean any book or document he might have read in the past. Barry

It's not scripture. Barry

Create some kind of communications station for aliens to phone home. I've seen the concept in theory. Barry

Refer to your post yesterday about delegating. I'm only disagreeing with your should. Managing a quality program may not require 1 of the 10 adult camping experts. I can see it in a small troop, but one benefit of a big troop is the large pool of resources. Barry

I don't agree with "SHOULD". Coming from the troop of 100 scouts, I believe the SM's primary responsibility is to manage a quality program. If a SM can fit in MB counseling, great. But "SHOULD"? Barry

It's restricting freedom of expression, plain and simple. But this is a private forum, so restricting a discussion by the owner is also a form freedom of expression. What I didn't like was the implication that the disagreements were hostile and unscout like and dangerous to youth. On the contrary, I felt most opinion were well thought out and set the example of safe discussion environment for a difficult subject. Implying that is was dangerous to youth was sad. Barry

As I've said many times here, training is the place to start change. But, someone has to justify and make the change, and someone has to train it. Barry

We marketed it as giving adds to make their job easier. Just an hour to pass along a few hints. The packs learned after the first year the information was in their best interest, not ours. If you do it, bring in someone that actually has some good ideas based from experience. Barry

For those who like grits, add a Bouillon cube to the water when heating to boil. Barry

Our district invites all the pack leaders for cookies and coffee one evening a few weeks before school starts for a prep course in getting them up to speed for cub recruiting. We discuss best proven methods for recruiting the boys, recruiting the adult leaders and follow through after cub recruitment night. It's presented as easier paths to recruiting. For Pack leaders, there are two opportunities for recruiting leaders. Locally our elementary schools have a schedule pickup day where all the families come to the school to get their kids teacher and room assignments. Experience has shown that packs set up a display and get names and phone numbers of possible new scouts can get 90% of their new scouts committed before recruiting night. From that list the adults use the numbers to call the parents and discuss leadership possibilities. If they do it right, they will know 90% of the roster of the pack even before sign up night. The other opportunity is the one you are thinking about, approach the parent personally and explain the pack's need. In my experience, 80% of parents approached personally will agree in way or another to it a try. The pack may need to compromise to the parents concerns, but they usually settle into the position within a few weeks. As you probably know, many parents want to do something, but just too shy or afraid to ask. It's a lot more detailed of meeting with other guidelines for running a smoother program, but that is the quick answer to your question. Barry

Why wait for National? Start at the Council or district level. Change comes from training. The higher the level, the better. I taught adult leader recruiting to pack leaders just before cub recruiting season. Barry

One man's lemons is another man's business opportunity. I see positive suggestions being presented. Barry

I did not say every troop, but I do believe 90%. First off, adult resources is always a challenge and the "easy" solution is coed. Second, the mindset will start with the coed Cub Scout program. Third, National will tend toward coed because one general style is easier to train and deliver at the professional level. My ,prognostication, is based from a lifetime of watching humans follow the natural instinct of taking the path of least resistance. However, I like your Czech, prognostication, because it "feels" good (I guess there is some liberalism in all of us). I hope you are right. Barry

Yes, however those of us who understand the dynamics of the BSA structure, and still have some ability to rationalize pragmatically, know that blending is inevitable for the majority of COs. It's simple matter of math. Oh, there will be some maverick troops for boys only, but it's not like there will be a lot of choices for finding a good patrol method program. Boys are getting the short end on this one. However, the Badon Powell scouts couldn't survive because their organization didn't have a solid base support like the BSA. I wonder if something like Badon Powell scouts could combine with the BSA (or whatever they will call it) as the solution for a boys only scout patrol within the CO. It would function more like a autonomous patrol, so it wouldn't demand the adult support of a full troop. Kind of a Lone Patrol program. The blended troop does their thing, the Lone Patrol does its thing. All within the support of the CO. National would go for it because it means more money. Ironically, the GSUSA is a working model of the structure for a Lone Patrol. They call them troops, but patrols or troops, it's all in the spelling. Barry

Good questions. What has been lost from camporees is the bragging rights of winning. The older Scouts when I was a scout drove the younger Scouts to be experts in all the skills because they were either trying to hold on and their reputation or trying to make one. Today camporees are just skill demonstrations. Nothing new or different from most troop advancement programs. So, there’s very little to get a young adult exited. I don’t see the serious competition of camporees, not sure why. Maybe they’ve developed such a bad reputation that there is know going back. Maybe there is very few of us who remember how to do it that way. I don’t know. So, cleaver themes are the secret to bringing the older Scouts back. We find the older Scouts like planning and leading skills demonstrations more than participating. Our troop has ran several troop level skills theme weekends under the themes of Star Wars, star trek, and a couple I don’t remember. They even planned and ran a couple of trooporees where we invited other troops. Our scouts’ favorites skills theme activities are night competitions (boys love an excuse to stay up all night) where all the Patrols go to a Campfire around 10 or 11 o’clock and are launched to their events after the fire is over. The usually finish around 3:00 in the morning. The adults treat them by cooking the breakfast. Another favorite is the triathlon theme camp out where Patrols had to ride their bikes several miles, backpack a few miles and canoe at to different locations on a lake. The Patrols had to use map and compass the whole time to find each of the 16 the skills and competitions through the course. That was, along with a couple our of free time (mostly bikes) is the most exhausted I have ever seen our Scouts. They cut Sunday activities short because they were just plain whipped. 😂 Our older Scouts loved planning these things and always did very well. The only adult involvement is being a resource for the older Scouts. Barry

Just saying. Barry

I believe there will be two types of family scouting adults: One type is the adult who wants a program that builds character for their kids along with the convenience of bringing the whole family. The other type wants an outdoor get away from the city for the weekend with the whole family. Both believe they are using the program as intended. Because National let "Family Scouting" out the bag, they gave parents permission to think of unit as family program, leaving them to build toward their interpretation. Council will be spending a lot of time sorting it out. Everyone likes to use countries outside the US as a models of success, but I'm curious if any of them use the program for family. Is there a model somewhere out their that we can can compare. Barry

The wife of a friend was at the state level when the changes were made. She said removing the principles of faith did them in. Nothing they did after that stopped the bleeding. However, it was going coed that motivated the BSA to start the Tiger program. Barry

Ya know Shortridge, you have a choice. I'm sure the moderators can explain it better, but you simply choose not to enter discussions or read the posts that you don't find personally useful. Barry

We do it exactly the way your first troop does it. We present our Eagles with a patch at the first troop meeting after their EBOR. I even presented my Webelos with their awards at the den meetings. Barry

Exactly right. We also had a shy stuttering scout who turned out to be a great SPL. What most adults don't understand about boys is that puberty changes everything in their human nature. You really don't know what a scout is capable of until after puberty. We had several young scouts who were a pain the rear as young scouts, then fantastic mature leaders after puberty. That is why older scout role models are so important. 90% of the skills older scouts use after the age 14 were learned when they were young scouts watching older scouts role models. We had one older scout transfer that was terrified to take a leadership position in our troop because so much was expected compared of them to his previous troop. It was no big deal for our scouts because that was all they knew. Quality of a troop program is measure by the performance of the older scouts because that is the highest level of skilled performance. That scares the troop leaders that can't hold on to their older scouts. Barry

Yes, I wasn't commenting on your specific situation. I was only adding some clarification of the councils expectations with units in regard of discipline. Barry