Eagledad

I would enjoy giving that pop quiz to every profession in Arlington, as well as all the Scout Executives. I want more than anything to be humbled by my skepticism. Barry

For me, the answer to the OPs question is on the CO; are they sponsoring the unit to get served, or to serve the community by providing a youth program of values. I honesty don’t know of a CO with the intention of being served. I know of a few that expect the units to provide a service now and then for the purpose of exposing their scouts to the CO members. I have seen that get out of hand. That’s typical in units that don’t have a working relationship with the CO. And that’s as much on the CO as the unit. Maybe National should consider some CO relationship training for unit leaders. I remember one church kicking out their unit because it was managed so badly. They had been the CO of that unit for 80 years. A few years later the following CO also considered removing that unit with the same unit leadership. They were just terrible leaders who allowed some embarrassing behavior. As for the CO having a vision for the unit, it’s very common for churches around here to consider the unit as part of their youth program. Not many set strict rules on the unit because it’s an outreach, but some do. I’ve never heard anyone being offended by it. Barry

I like your Scouts Own Service plan. I also agree with you that duty to god is one of the most important aspects of the scouting program. But for me, talking directly to scouts about god is the better than a sleeping pill. The look in their eyes isn't too different from the Zombies. From my SM perspective, the value of god is best highlighted with a few subtle words after a self reflection of a recent scouting experience. For boys this age, growth from duty to god is usually, unsuspecting, subtle, and personal. In general Scouts Own Services are the most dreaded and boring part of the a scout's outing experience. The subject matter is not the reason a boy joins scouting. I personally like to keep scouts own short and to the point. The point is that scouting values are gods values. I admit, from my faith, I believe God does all the work in His time. I try to stay out of His way by not taking anything away, and not adding much. Usually a mention of God from me in front of the scouts is a personal reflection for my experience. My hope is that my actions speak very loudly. I'm not trying to be self-righteous about this. All of us Scoutmasters have our style toward scout growth, it's a personal style thing. Your approach may work, but my experience is that scouts who choose to do a Scouts Own Service for credit are being pushed by their parents. I guess that is as good a motivation as any, but I like to see scouts all in with these things. I wish you luck and hope your plan goes well for you. Barry

It changed in the mid 90s around here. Reasoning given to us is that the modern tent materials are flame resistant and would burn quickly with very low flames when they do burn. Scouts are safer letting the tent burn then trying escape through the flames and throwing water and sand would actually make the situation more dangerous because the burning material would breakup and fall inside the tent. Also, the other HUGE benefit of no water buckets for our area are the mosquitoes. One or two buckets aren't a huge problem, but a camp full of water buckets for dozens of tents can be a serious health hazard. We still keep buckets around for the fire rings. Barry

You've heard me say it many times; the best thing scouts can learn from adults is humility. Otherwise, I just soon the adults stay 100 yards away. But, the Scouting program reputation alone can change an adult's attitude. Stopping at a New Mexico convenience store for gas and junk-food while on our way to Philmont, our scouts presence in the small store was almost overwhelming. I was a little nervous at first when a robust female truck driver called some of the scouts over to her. She, in her cigarette ting voice, apologized for wearing a sexually offensive t-shirt. This seasoned truck driver admitted to being very embarrassed in the presence of Boy Scouts. Maybe there should be a "Scout" Association Method. At the very least, plus one for the Uniform Method. Barry

We purchased the kits for the scouts and asked them to use the materials provided. About the only other guideline is the maximum weight. The cars are checked in the night before the race where they are be weighed, inspected and modified to be race ready. Typically the cars that require the most time at inspection are from scouts who didn't have any help building it. The dads doing the inspection are more than willing to help the scout get the car race ready. I can't remember the word cheating being used after the race. Barry

You have no idea how often my family has said that. My son wants to put on my gravestone “Death makes complete sense”. I’m not sure if that’s true.🤔 Barry

Why does someone have to be egotistical to be skeptical? Many atheists believe in other intelligent life. Being skeptical of other intelligent life existance is egotistical; being skeptical of gods existence is, what? Man by nature seeks answers. But wouldn’t seeking answers base on a vivid imagination be considered egotistical? The History station lost my respect long ago when it started promoting UFOs as real. As a history nut, I just wanted to learn more history as presented by facts. Barry

Wise thoughts, all. i agree the top three are the base for scout growth and discipline development. But I don’t discount the others so much as I see them as tools during different phases of a scouts maturity growth. For example the uniform; for me the uniform is how a scout views himself among his peers, as well as how he wants to be seen by his peers. Whether in how he dresses or how he works to be part of the team, he is practicing uniformity with group. As their biological body changes, the importance of how others see them changes a lot. And they reflect those changes how they were the uniform, and how they want to fit in. How they fit in and when to fit in is some of the hardest decisions they make in context of right and wrong. The uniform is a wonderful tool to help a scout find acceptance of his inner self as much as his outer self. Most adults see leadership as an outcome. But I find leadership the most challenging and stressful experience for practicing the Scout Law (ideals). Nothing else in the program requires the scout to hold his friends to expectations and and accountability like leadership. How often does a PL resort to yelling and threatening to motivate his buddy to perform an action. Learning the skills of serving others requires much practice of humility. Every scout should have some levels of leadership experience so they find their limits of humility, and develop skill of being a servant. And just as challenging are the skills of fellowship. Like uniformity, working as a team when not in the mood or pride says “no” requires practice of the scout law to make the right decisions. Good discussion, I look forward to more thoughts Barry

OK, in my opinion, the OP was only asking about retaliation protection, not YPT violations. Protecting accusers from retaliation by the accused. I was only responding to retaliations. If I'm off the mark, please disregard my responses. Barry

I'm sure you've heard of defamation of character and false accusations. More common in this culture than we would like to admit. Barry

All the more reason to purchase personal liability insurance. Barry

I gathered she was saying that the BSA doesn't cover the liability aspect of retaliations. Litigation can be quite expensive. Barry

Well I'm no Jambalaya expert, and the only reason I've been married for 39 years is I've learned when to not poke the lion. If the Mrs. says add okra, I add okra. We learned that Okra is a somewhat southern thing. We have served many northern friends their first helping of fried okra. Most have never seen it first hand, much less tasted it. I tell them "where do you think grits come from?". Barry

I agree. Scouting should be an adventure experience, not efficient rank advancement. Barry

There are two different discussions going on here. One point is that meals are challenging for a team because scouts are forced to accept responsibilities that effect the whole group. Meals also provide opportunities for serving the group or being served by the group. I remember one scout who never liked a single thing the patrols cooked. Is he giving or taking in the team effort? Is the team giving or taking in giving him choices? The Scout Law is quite clear, but personal pride or humility figure into the failure of the success of that situation. As I said, until the members of the team give up their personal pride, they will stand out from the team. The other part of the discussion, and I also think a good one, is how can the adults get the patrols to become successful independent teams, like in cooking. We start with a nudge by encouraging cooking competitions or activities the push scouts to be creative and use good sense in their decisions. I found that scouts want to do things right, they just need help in understanding what is right. Nutrition for example is a good tool for scouts to use in creating healthy meals. Fun activities encourage creativity to broaden the range of healthy meals. I'm am not a great cook, but what I can cook, I cook pretty well. And most of what I cook I learned in scouts. Boys by nature are lazy and don't like to put too much effort in new ideas. So they get in a rut repeating the same habits as the previous campouts. I think it's OK to encourage creative variety into the scouts program. don't just do a compass course, do one that involves a lake or river. Do a five mile hike that requires climbing riding a bike. Do a simulated car wreck to force the scouts to practice first aid. Our PLC planned all of these things. And once the scouts get momentum, watch out because the program will take off. Barry

Maybe there are two Jambalaya Capitols (North and South?), our chef (Mrs. Barry) always includes okra in her Jambalaya. Barry

I'm sure there are a lot of good suggestions here, but one I remember that helped a lot was our troop did a cooking them one month. Each meeting had a different theme, like dutch oven, stove cooking, fire cooking and other themes. That was 20 years ago, so I can't remember. But the patrols were asked to create some minus to hand out to all the patrols and cooked those menu items at the meeting to be judged by the Scoutmaster. Then the patrols had another competition at the campout. The way we got the patrols to cook healthier meals was approaching the the PLC to be more responsible with healthier cooking by following the recommend BSA and National nutrition guidelines that require proteins and vegetables. Adults are responsible for the scouts healthy eating from the Fitness Aim. Once the scouts starting understanding the adults responsibilities and guidelines for proper healthy eating, they pretty much take over. The adults can introduce new ideas in their own campsite. We once provided turkey to all the patrols on evening that we cooked using the charcoal posts reflective oven. https://www.instructables.com/id/Turkey-on-a-Tripod/ Patrols started cooking turkeys with the method until I retired. The picture is my Troop Guide son showing off his turkey cooking skills to the new scouts on their first campout. Barry

My experience is New Boy or Same Age patrols don't perform as well with Patrol method because they don't have role models to follow. They either learn it on their own, from adults, or don't learn it at all. One common problem I've observed with same age units is the patrols tend to become cliquish and the scouts don't like doing activities outside their patrols. Some troops work around the problem by moving whole patrols into troop leadership positions instead of individual scouts seeking each position independently. It's described as patrols taking their turn. That creates its own challenges, but it works for adults who desire same age patrol program. Barry

I don't think there is and easy answer. UC advising can be tricky. For example, the UC had to guide us on how to give BORs without retesting the scouts. He could have said not to do it. But instead he did this by leading a few or our BORs. Also, the vast majority of troops don't follow the recommended advancement guidelines and policies. The UCs are closest to units for following published policies. Should the unit leaders pride prevent them from at least listening to the UC advise? An Eagle can hang on how units react. A good UC will try and stay away from adult pride and instead suggest attending training, or even do the unit a favor by bringing a trainer to the unit for an hour of training. Some UCs are better at passing this information to the leaders than others. Where I think they start crossing the line is when they tell the unit how to run their program. The year before I joined the Cubs as a leader, a UC told our leaders to split the pack because it was too big. That created a huge mess, especially during recruiting. He also got in the middle of adding to meeting agendas before we finally asked him to step back. On the other hand, our Troop UC tried to stick to advising by clarify BSA policies and rules. He wasn't sure about our 100 yard campsite separation approach because it wasn't how he Scoutmastered his very successful program. But, he never told us to stop. He ended up getting some kind of award for his UC experience because our troop grew from 15 to 100 scouts in 6 years. He got that award because he stayed out of the way. If we weren't going off in a dangerous direction, he just stepped back. I have watched good UCs make bad programs good, and bad UCs kill good programs. Over the years, I have found two observations that determine the quality of UCs. First is the District Commissioner. Some of them just aren't very good. The other is the quality and experience of the UC. I've said this before in other adult leadership discussions, but success with Unit Commissioners depends a lot of good recruiting. More often than not, bad unit leaders make bad UCs. There is a big gray area for how and where a UC advises. Looking at different units from the District and council side, unit leaders should have some patience with UC guidance, as well as the UCs having patience. Developing a good relationship with the DE and DC (district commissioner) helps a great deal because they are the UC advisers. Many times the UC is just relaying information from his superiors. Barry

I'm a little curious Buggie, you give the impression that you are the respected authority over all the adults and have little patience for not following strict enforcement of policies and rules. Are you a retired SM or something similar? Would a refresher training class be an option to bring your fellow adults up to speed? Barry

"""Yes, the OA is a service organization. But there was a camaraderie in the work. Sometimes that "cheerful spirit, even the midst of irksome tasks and weighty responsibilities...." resulted in turning it to fun or even turning the task into a joke to make it more bearable. Sadly that is missing. When I was CA 10+ years ago. I suggested promoting the fun stuff as well as doing our own. We sent folks to fellowship and conclave. We had fun meetings and even did some special trips. Our work load didn't decrease, in fact we did a few extra community service projects. OA was getting back on track for a while in my neckof the woods. Eagle94-A1""" This isn't just OA, this is Patrol Method. I took this quote from the OA discussion, but Eagle94 is really hitting the idealism of the brothers in the patrol as well. The objective of the patrol is for the scouts Practice struggling, and come together with ideas so often that they can eventually read each others mind. They reach a place that being in the patrol isn't about scouting together, camping together, cooking together or even competing together, it's about being together. One poster commented that Arrowmen in his area didn't enjoy the program because it service wasn't fun. But that means they haven't come together as brothers. They were simply doing a task they were assigned. When the scouts start organizing activities to serve together, then the weighted task are easy, even fun. The 4 Steps of Team Development are Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing. The key step there is Storming because that is where the team members (Patrol Members) start to hold each other accountable for doing their part. It's called Storming because the members push back and forth until actions of humility bring balance. Humility is not a natural human action of young males because it exposes them to harm. Pride is their natural reaction because it's raises a barrier that protects them. The barrier also prevents the clay shaping bonding that forms a productive team. The members of a productive team develop a trust with the other members where they can let their guard down. Human instinct is to hold your weaknesses close to you. Once you build the trust with the other members of the team, a relationship builds where the members not only enjoy being with the team, but also liking themselves more as well. Team members use your best skills, and that feel pretty cool. So, how do we get the patrols to push to and through Storming part of the patrol method. Well, the more they struggle, they more they have to rely on the team the relieve the struggle. Competition is a really good method of applying stress into a team. But any struggle works. I found High Adventure Crews typically go through the Forming, Storming, Norming and Performing steps in just a few days because the trek is compact with struggles. Most High Adventures are both physically and mentally stressful through most of each day. There is very little relief until after the evening meal. Takes about 3 days to reach storming, then the rest of the trek to reach Performing. Crews are pretty bonded by the end of a trek. The natural leaders will stand out and the rest of the team does their part to support the goals and vision of the team. Most scouts of a crew never loose that bond even after they break up after the trek. I believe that preparing meals is the most stressful activity of a patrol on a normal monthly campout. Many troops like to make meals as easy as possible because there is so much stress. Pop Tarts for breakfast, sandwiches for lunch and canned spaghetti for dinner with the adults cooking Sunday breakfast as the scouts break camp. Instead, encourage the patrols cooks healthy hearty breakfasts, hot lunches and complex hot dinners. Not only should they cook Sunday breakfast, but prepare lunch as well. Why are troops in so much of a hurry Sunday? Building teams takes time, troops should be using as much time as they can get. I also encourage competition as much as possible. Inspections are a wonderful application of stress because they forces the scouts to keep a neat campsite. While two scouts are cooking, the rest of the team has the task of cleaning up the campsite. A tent mate may have to role up his partners sleeping bag because he is busy with KP. Time is the Scoutmasters best tool for creating stress. When a patrol has less than an hour to get up, cook, clean up and get camp ready for inspection, they will generally come to troop assembly late until the come together as a team. I love "Time". I used it a lot. To build a team, the adults must push a program that forces the members of the team to function together. But most important, the program should apply enough stress and struggle to force the team to hold each other accountable. Once the members start lowering their guard with humility and accepting accountability, then they start to bond through trust. I enjoy watching mature patrols because their is no limits to their goals and abilities. Like the mature OA team, mature patrols are naturally servant oriented because they outwardly act toward the rest of the troop they way the act toward each other. No wonder new young scouts are naturally attracted to them. These patrols not only make hard work look easy, they also make it look fun. It's hard for the adults at first to push a program that challenges scouts to the point of storming because they believe the hostile actions toward each other are bad behavior. Truth is the Scout Law guides how to behave in stressful situations. Adults want scouts to feel that stress often so they can learn how to control their actions. As the adults guide the scouts to use humility in their behavior, they will quickly cross the line to Norming. And then it gets fun from there. I know, but I was bored with all the other discussions. So, I started one on a subject that is fun for me. Not that they aren't good discussions, they are. I'm just adding a little variety. Hope you don't mind. Barry

Me too. Often. Barry

I’m just trying to start a discussion of raising the bar, 1 in 10 is an acceptable ratio. Ordeal should weed them out even farther. Still, 28 nights is only 12 camp outs and one summer camp. Not that 30 nights isn’t enough to be an outdoors expert, but most troops don’t even encourage high adventure until 14. Is 12 Car Camping campouts and one summer camp the definition of expert outdoorsmen? I really believe exceptional maturity is the goal along with exceptional expertise of the 8 Methods. You can pick the age, but I believe 13 would be minimum. honestly, I don’t believe this cultural will allow elitism in the program other than Eagles. That is why OA became what it is. This is the generation of mediocrity. Barry