Eagledad

You nailed it. I don't know if the problem is burned out adults, or if they just don't know how. I've said here many times that I find difference between flourishing troops and troops that struggle is the flourishing troops have adults who were scouts as a youth. Those adults remember what made their scouting experience fun, and insure it is part of their program with a purpose. And as you said the adults need to have fun too, they find the Joy is having fun program. I think the problem is adults often fixate on the outcome and not enough on the fun components that give joy the experience to get mix up what the purpose of the program. I saw this kind of thing at Wood Badge. Many of the staff and the participants were so focused on outcome that they couldn't enjoy the activities that gave them experiences to feed the outcomes. My nature is bit of being a class clown and I worked very hard to dilute the serious outcome perspective. But, it was concerning to me. No wonder so many folks complain they didn't get anything out of WB. They didn't look for joy in the camping and comradery. Great perspective, thanks. Barry

I didn't see this before, so my apologies for the late response. The word "fun" is being over used in this discussion implying that it is the main reason for scouts staying with the program, even to Eagle. We talked about fun a lot in our troop to the point that the scouts were encourage to change any activity to be more fun when they felt it wasn't. That being said, my observation isn't that the fun experiences are the reason scouts are motivated to continually participate in the troop program week after week. There is a famous very old book some here know where the author basically says that the satisfaction from fun is temporary and grows old because fun things in general don't stimulate moral and intellectual growth. The path toward a rewarding life is a path of continued interpersonal growth that comes from gaining wisdom. We were not a troop that pushed earning the Eagle as a higher priority than the methods of Scouting. Yet, we averaging at one time a new Eagle every three months. That is an astonishing accomplishment even for a Eagle Factory, at least around here. But, Eagle wasn't a talked about goal in the big picture of our program. It was just a byproduct of scouts who liked coming to our program. I believe we had that kind of result because we pushed a program where any scout at anytime could work toward any rank accomplishment he wanted. And because we pushed a program where older scouts wanted to come each week to feel like equals with the adult staff. Almost 50 percent of our scouts were 14 and older. I once asked each scout if the outdoor adventure part of our program was the reason they stayed in scouting. We had a very active (and fun) outdoor program that included typically 6 high adventure treks a year. Only 20 percent said they stayed because of the outdoor program. So, why were the other 80% hanging around? While fun and adventure are good carrots to entice trying out an activity, it is how one feels about themselves after the activity that keeps them coming. My sons loved paint ball. But, the fun shooting paint balls at stationary targets lost its luster pretty quick. So they started going to paintball meets where they became part of team that competed against other teams that won by having the last man survive. They found the meets exciting because the teams were required to use their intellect to creating strategy for the team to dominate the other teams., and continued growth of skills to hit moving targets. We humans need more than fun for continued practice. We human needs growth. At all ages, scouts are stimulated from the challenge of growth. And, while learning outdoor skills satisfies those skills, eventually those skills are mastered, typically by age 14. But, the growth of developing character and moral integrity continue forever. Even for adults. And nothing challenges those areas for scouts better than responsibility. Sadly, scouting has pushed leadership as the main, and many times, the only type of responsibility that furthers one character. But, there are as many different actions of responsibility as there are personalities. When a scout joined our troop, he was given the responsibility of grubmaster or cheermaster. And they were trained in those responsibilities by the patrols, but more important, those scouts were given a responsibility that fit there maturity, and forced them to become a part of a team with expectations. They had to perform to fit with the team. And they learned quickly what skills like communication needed to improve. By the time a scout is about 14 or 15, they have pretty much "been there and done that" in the troop program. Especially when it comes to FUN. So, what motivates them to continue coming to the program. Personal Growth. Growth comes in a lot of ways, but it usually has the effect of showing the scout where they are experts, or need change. As most of us know, growth is stimulated by failure, not success. Finding satisfaction requires mastering the skills to replace failure with success. Scout of all ages needs challenges for their maturity that shows them where they need to change and grow. Older scouts are challenging for adults because their maturity requires adult level responsibilities for them to make wrong decisions that motive actions to master those failures. Challenging each scout toward activities that put them at risk of making bad decisions forces the adults to get to know each scout well enough to develop a path that pushes a scout to grow and feel good about themselves. Often the scout can get pushed to hard and choose to quit coming. Forcing the adults to reevaluate their approach. It's a challenging program for everyone. But, it is also deeply stimulating, and satisfying. So, while we keep throwing around the word FUN as the primary approach to keeping scouts in the program, I like to think of FUN more of a catch-all word that encompasses all the reasons scouts are motivated to spend a few hours every week in the scout program. Barry

There was a troop in our district with an ex Marine Scoutmaster. And he was very much the same as you describe yourself. I think he was an Eagle. It was the districts 2nd largest troop because the scouts loved him. Our adults would laugh as I hoped for rain on the new scouts first campout. Nothing teaches confidence more than setting up your first tent in the dark on your first campout. And, if that experience didn’t go well, which was rare, we had the rest of the week end to experience fun. One year a mom told me that her 18 year old son, who was never a scout, asked his 14 year old brother how to pack for a rainy campout with his high school buddies. Mom was so proud. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I'm not sure what you're saying here, but, ignorance isn't always bliss. Most of the time continued failures are the result of not getting enough information to succeed. Eating cereal out of the box can be fun, but learning how to prepare nutritious meals on a budget is a skill is not typical of teenagers outside of troops. My 64 year old sister confessed not to long ago that she always enjoyed me fixing breakfast when we were in high school because they were delicious. Then she asked me how I learned to cook such good meals. Well, it wasn't mom. There is always the struggle for us experienced scouters to teach "scout run" without crossing the line to paint a picture of a program that is "scout run into the ground." All I can say is that the troop is an adult program for developing young people into moral and ethical decision makers. Adults are simply part of the equation. That being said, outside of the troop assembly, scouts will rarely see the adults in a mature scout run program because the scouts grow and mature into adult decision makers. One last thing. In the last couple months, 3 young men who were scouts when I was a scouts approached me to say hello. Each are close to 40 years old with three kids the same age as my grand kids, and I didn't recognize a single one of them. Thank God that I haven't change so much yet that they didn't recognize me because my wife and I enjoyed talking to them so much. They were part of a troop that grew from 15 scouts to 100 scouts in six years. I had the reputation of the most boy run scoutmaster in the district, and that wasn't considered a complement by most scouters at the time. But, a lot of scoutmasters reached out to us for help because our troop also had more scouts over the age of 14 than in other unit (troop, Venturing, or whatever) in Oklahoma. Our program looked radical to most other leaders, but those 3 scouts that approached me the last couple of months couldn't express enough of how much fun they had in our troop. So, there is a balance between letting scouts do want to do for fun, and providing enough structure and resources so the fun also develops life long skills for the next generation they raise. Barry

I believe one of a DE's main responsibilities should be teaching sponsors "how" what they are doing is bigger than the sum of the parts. Truth of the matter is that from the outside, the parts (mastering preparedness) can look quite messy and unappealing. Barry

As the COR, you have the authority to do what ever is best for the CO. Actually, you are just a representative of the authority of the CO, but 95 % of the time, the authority gives you all the decision rights, especially when you are this involved. The real issue is the personal conflict. And I know it may not seem personal to you, but if the troop feels they need him and you don't, and you want to change his responsibilities, then it is personal. This really comes under "Can't Everyone Just Get Along?". Many of us here would call this a coffee moment, which mainly is a friendly conversation over coffee (and cookies, I really like cookies), where the two of you can discuss a solution. In reality, you have the authority as the COR to lay down the law. But, in the Friendly, Courteous, Kind way, you're two equals trying to come to a solution. Maybe he needs more training. Or an assistant. You can also consider inviting a 3rd person to keep the discussion humble like the District Commissioner or someone you know to be fair a level headed. Now I do understand that we here on the forum don't know ether of you and have to trust that you are being accurate with the situation. But, if the situation and personalities are as you say in your brief post, then in reality, and in the big picture of unit problems, your issue is very small. If you can get around the personalities problem, I think you will find a simple solution. One last thing, when I trained unit adults, I suggested finding a CC who had the experience for the responsibilities because the CC is suppose to tells the COR what the unit needs and wants to work toward the COs goals. The reality is the CC should be dealing with this issue, and since they are not, something isn't quite right with how the unit should be doing things. That is not to say your CC isn't weak, many are and that brings it's own problems. But, if I were the SE of your council, I would be looking at why the troop committee is not functioning correctly. And you should be doing the same. Your responsibility is to bring in leaders who can do their responsibilities, which includes dealing with these issues like this. You should be the last attempt to fixing a problem. IF it is not an issue with them, then something is a miss, and you need to step back and figure that out. Take that first step and have that cup of coffee. And the cookies, don't forget the cookies. Barry

Interesting post. I agree with the first paragraph, but based from my experiences, have a different opinions on the rest. I guess different experiences lead to different biases. Barry

One summer we did Cubmobiles races. Along with the other activities during a pack summer camp, each den had to assemble and paint their Cub mobile. They got to race them the last day of the week. The pack raced those cubmobiles for the next 15 years. The DE was so impressed with them that he asked our pack help him plan and run a district Cubmobile race. The district planned a district race each spring for 10 years. Google Cubmobiles to get an idea of their fun. Barry

I have seen it, and generally it was a screw up on the Council getting dates wrong. Probably doesn't happen very often now with everything recorded electronically, but 20 years ago we asked Council for a copy of all the scout's records and found they got some of the records wrong on 30% of our scouts. Most of the mistakes were not a big deal, but once in a while the got the rank dates wrong. Barry

I can't argue the fees, that is the result of the ongoing litigation. But, don't let bad adult leaders tant your opinion about the troops. The experience is typically different. Cub leaders can new and inexperienced with scouting and more often than I would like to see, they set bad examples. Troop leaders in most cases are more experienced and settled into the program. At least give them a chance. Camping and patrol experiences are fun. The Civil Air Patrol is pretty cool too. Barry

Great idea. Or start with a precourse test to check your knowledge. 70% rewards you by skipping the course. Barry

No, 2000 was when they required parents attend and have meetings every week. Lions was somewhere around 15 years later when National was also adding other clueless program modifications like adding Leadership as a 4th Method when it was already part of the 8 Aims. Barry

National change the Tiger program in 2020 to require each scout have an attending parent with them at every activity. Up to that point, Tiger membership dropouts was bad, I think around 50% nationally, give or take. I don’t know what National was thinking, but requiring a parent at every activity made the problem worse. Parents of 1st grade parents are bombarded with after school activities and it overwhelms them. They only have so much time in a day to work, cook, and be family. Those parents need a very easy program that fits the schedule and gives them an introduction to scouting. The real problem was forcing toddler age scouts to weekly meetings that wasn’t worth the time of Tiger families. Our pack experimented with different approaches and found one den meeting a month and an optional Pack meeting was satisfactory. Our Tiger membership dropout rate went from 30 % to 3%. Of course we did a few other things to make Tigers easier for the parents as well, but the fewer meetings made the program more appealing during recruitment. Who knows what the folks at National were thinking when they come up with these changes, but they sure weren’t talking to the parents. I sent letters to National of our success with Tigers along with the other issues that Tigers still presences to the larger program. And yet, program changes go in the opposite direction. Two packs in our district dropped Tigers all together and didn’t drop in membership. We found that the Tigers program required double the adults of the rest of the pack to have a successful Tiger program. Dropping Tigers was a nobrainer to save from burnout. There is a very simple approach we used to fix the problems the published program created. Ask the parents what they wanted and give it to them. The simple fact is that when the parents leave the program, they take their kids with them. Barry

Yes, their maturity is closer to toddlers and very demanding of the adults. I think the Wolf/Bear/Webelos programs are adequate and don’t require much tuning. If National really believes membership is reliant on the toddler age group, they should look at something like the Girl Scout program that has a separated more simple program for that age. Professionals say 20 months is the average time to expect from volunteers in any volunteer organization. Experienced has proven that to be about right. Burned out volunteers dredge boring programs that drive families away. Barry

Shorten the program 2 years to prevent burnout. That one change would double the crossovers into the troops. Barry

This solution is an example of why leaders without is not a national issue. Most of the time, the unit will find a solution. Also, intimidation from older is a more common problem. I knew of several troops with the intimidating older scouts. Leaders learn quickly that they better fix it or loose recruits. Barry

Strange discussion. But, if forums do nothing else, they bring out extreme opinions. Over the years folks expressed extreme thoughts like, scouting was dying from lack of gay adult leaders, then it was lack of gay youths, then it was female youths, and then to much god or not enough god or not enough camping, or too much camping and so on. A few extreme opinions doesn’t mean reality. But it does drive interesting discussions. I don’t believe millennial mothers are the pivot point of BSAs success or failure. Helicopter parents are a real problem, but only locally. I also don’t believe the few mothers who are afraid are anymore sexist than those of us who resisted bringing girls into the program because male scouts would be at a disadvantage for growth. interesting I had a discussion with a grandmother last week who is now anti BSA because of admitting girls. She believes scouts are safe on campouts, but she also believes boys are different from girls and need a different scouting experience. Is grandma sexist? I don’t think so, she is experienced with life. But, I expect young parents on the front side of life may not relate. As someone who has developed a lot of BSA membership trend data over the years, I consider myself somewhat an expert on future trends. I believe Covid has done more to upset the future of the BSA than gays, girls, god, and sexual harassment. Covid took the cruise control out of program and forced leaders to become more creative and active, or not. I believe the future is going to be very dependent on just plain survival. Survival will depend on the passion of volunteers wanting a program so much that they will have to think out-of-box to keep their program growing. They won’t get help from the giant anchor of National. And they will have to contend with the juggernaut of the Cub program, which is a serious adult killer burning out leaders. The troop program is easier to manage, but it does rely heavily on the scraps the Cub program leaves them for crossovers. But, the real issue with the troop program is that the majority of volunteers never had a youth scouting experience. That was a coming problem before Covid, but now their is less to temper its problems. Adult are instinctively competitive. It’s a survival thing. The instinct of Scouts however, is games and adventure. Adventure and games develop the mind and body to be ready for competitive adult survival when the youth cross over into adulthood at about 14 years of age. My point is if the adults don’t know how to have fun, they tend to drive the program toward less fun drive towards developing stature. Advancement and leadership will replace adventure and games. I see the future of the troop program becoming more of an after school club for pre teenagers. So, lots to wonder and worry about. But, it will be the passionate adults who will drive the trends of the future program. Where are we going, I have no idea. But we need to fasten our seatbelts because it’s going to be a wild ride. Barry

I agree with qwazse, but I wonder how much of the enthusiasm was generated by passionate adults. I didn't get a comfortable feeling about the youth level of enthusiasm from this form. Of course this is an adult forum, but some of the adults seemed hell-bent and creating success stories. However, the Venturing Crews program does have some success with active girls. Barry

Yes, many challenges. A big one ate the unprofessional professionals at National. My big concern is whether parents want a character building program or an after school program. Barry

After many years of observing BSA units, I find that economics and ignorance are big drivers of unit procedures because few adults understand the BSA vision enough to keep their program compass pointed north. Adults will get what they want one way or another. Council would only step in when they see a liability risk. The next few years will be interesting. Barry

Doesn’t make sense. Barry

I agree with this post. A council in southern Oklahoma merged with the Central Oklahoma council in the early 90s. The southern Council's OA program was considered the hallmark of OA programs in all of Oklahoma while the Central Council's program struggled. The merge required OA members of the southern council drive 90 minutes to meetings in central Oklahoma. The southern OA struggles to survive now. Barry

The BSA is the adults program with a vision of developing the youth into moral and ethical decision makers. Most here who know me know I am very pro youth run. But, I cringe when I here leave it up to the youth. While the main principal of the program is scouts developing character from their free choices, the program has guidelines that the units must work within. That doesn’t mean the scouts can’t be a part of making the decisions, it means they should be part of the team with adults who have experience and wisdom that they can contribute to discussion to provide more content. The point of the discussion shouldn’t letting the scouts choose, the discussion is how to discuss the complexities as a team and work toward solutions as a team. It won’t be easy, but the questions aren’t easy either. Barry

Tap out was always one of the fun parts of the process that scouts looked forward to. Especially at summer camp in front of hundreds of observers. Saying that, the Ordeal is where the scout finds out if he/she are ready and mature enough to be an Arrowmen. Rather that is how it used to be. Barry

I’m not sure my post applies to your experience. I’m saying just because a culture decided to be offended by the innocent and respectful actions of an organization does not make the actions any less innocent and respectful and should be treated with the respect of their intentions. As for your sons experience, I turned down the district recruiting committees offer to take over as the chapter advisor because I didn’t want to deal with the Scoutmasters. I come from a time when Arrowmen were the special forces of scouting. I would have drove the chapter in that direction and I knew I would meet a lot of resistance. Barry