Eagledad

It's not about whose activities the scouts can participate, it's about getting credit for participation. What I mean is that as far as District/council/National are concerned, the youth is a member of whatever the computer says the scout is registered. So, if the troop is willing to let the Webelos participate with the Patrol a few weeks while still registered as Webelos, that is fine. If the Pack is ok with the New Scouts participating with Pack activities while registered in the Troop, nobody is going to say otherwise. But, a new scout in the troop can't earn Cub awards and the Cubs can't earn any Troop awards. The only place I have seen anyone get upset about this is when the future Troop leader wants the Webelos to participate in the District MB College to get a head start on earning badges. If the Webelos want to register with the troop to start working toward Boy Scout recognition, those Webelos need to be warned that they can't earn anymore Cub awards. I have seen scouts miss out the Arrow of Light because the adults didn't understand the system. Barry

I couldn't answer the question because the dynamics of experienced adults has been changing a lot since 1990. It changed so much so that National started all over with training in the year 2000. But with the recent membership policy changes, the dynamics are going to accelerate even more. For a lot of reasons, the program is changing enough that the present user manuals and handbooks are inadequate. Training has always assumed the scouts and adults have some knowledge of the subject. Well that assumption has to be thrown out. The vast vast majority of adults coming in don't have a clue of expectations or skills. But who can read the future enough to plan for it. Here is what I can say with a great deal of confidence, the BSA needs to cycle out the old scouters brought up in the traditional program and replace them with brand new adults starting over. The traditional program is nonfunctional in this culture and environment. I used to guide units with the same advice when they wanted to change their program. They needed to start with new scouts. It will take a few years, but the bases for the new program will rise out of the confusion and find it's way. Other than political correctness and Eagles for everyone, I honestly don't know what this generation of parents want out of a youth outdoors scouting program. Character? Maturity? Values? My teacher son even says parents of his students struggle with expectations. Scouting is going to have to re -identify itself. Barry

The discussions are telling, count the number of threads in the last 6 months on the subjects of patrol method and youth protection. Which should be the harder subject for the adults? Barry

My take is National's reply is code for just relish in the new program where girls are earning Eagles. All this patrol method and youth protection stuff is noise that will eventually blend into the future of the program. All is good. One of my neighbors, who was also an ASM while I was SM, stopped by to chat while walking his dog. He brought up his son and how he takes his family camping a lot. I took that moment to asked him what he thought about the new BSA program, without giving him any of my opinions. His only comment was, "thank goodness my son and I were Boy Scouts before all these changes." The only changes he knows about are what he heard on the news. He doesn't know about all this other stuff that likely will has change the program more than the single change of bringing in girls. I know it's the times, but this program is sure a long ways from my dads troop where they met at the church on Friday and hiked out of town until they got tired. With the permission of the owner, they set up camp there for the weekend. I think National is fighting for it's life. Barry

Kind of sounds like the only threat here is the keys into the building. That can be worked out. Barry

I think you are trying to hard to fix a problem, that isn't necessarily a problem. Or at least a problem that would fix Venturing in general. I know of several troops (Nationally) that have very large active Venture crews connected to them, and that maintained a high level of performance for several years. What these Troop/Crews have in common is that they expect the scouts to join the crews around age 14. They expect the crew to support the troop program. And, most, but not all, of these programs are identified as Eagle Mills. In other words, they created the crew to keep the scouts around after age 14. It works well for them because they prepare the adults to move on to the crew as their sons reach that age. The Troop/Crew adults work closely together and basically they are attached in their unit activities. The Crew by it definition and nature have independence to do their own activities, but scouts from the troop can participate. That may sound ideal for you and maybe that is a good model to follow, but there are two thoughts about those troops that cause some concern. 1. They still require a very organized and visionary group of adults. Those are adults are rare. 2. Excepting for one, all of those units are very adult run. PLC is basically in name alone. Of the one unit that isn't advancement driven, the success of that unit is very much dependent on a very visionary adult who has been there for over 30 years. He has a unique vision and set of skills that makes that boy/girl run program a success. And likely that success will decline when he leaves (dies). One last thing that hashtagscouts brought to mind; most of those units that I mentioned that used to be Explorers in the 70s weren't connected to any troops. In fact, I would guess that the majority of their scouts were never in a troop program. The theme of scuba, law enforcement, medical emergency and so on, are the main attractions and recruiting poster. Barry

That is an interesting question. I don't know know, but when I was active with district and council, the Explorer units that were active in the 70s (medical emergency, law enforcement, Aviation, sailing, and a couple of others) were still active after year 2000. But, we saw our district troop breakoff Venturing crews come and go. It's an adult thing. Barry

As can be seen, it's very complicated. I don't know if this is true, but I was told that National had a long range plan to change the scouting unit structure to limit troop ages to 14, and push Venturing as the next step. That kind of makes since with the Venture Patrols National was pushing. But, if that were true, it seems that vision got lost somewhere. In the time I was out of scouting from 1998 to 1992, Venturing (Exploring) went from being an experience with a future occupations to a supplemental troop program. I remember talking a girl about her backpacking Crew in the late 80s, which was new to me. I think backpacking turned into the easy way of justifying an outlet for older scouts tired of troop programs. But, I will go even farther and say I think Venturing turned into an easy outlet for troop adults who weren't ready to get out of scouting with their sons wanted to quit. I saw a lot of that. Barry

Well yes and no. Venturing isn't the same as the Patrol Method of a troop. So, adults can take on more responsibility to make the program work if the scouts aren't doing their share of the work, at least until they leave. So, you are right in a way because most Venturing crews are created to save the older troop scouts from leaving the BSA. BUT, if the adults can't make the program work in the troop, odds are against them that they aren't going to make it work in a crew. The adults will drive it to work long enough that they have their fun, then when they move on, the crew dies a quick death. I always tried to get the SMs to look at their Patrol Method part of the program because that is where they are failing. But once the adults get Venturing in their head, it's hard to change them. The other part of the problem is the adults burnout with the troop program, so they have no motivation to stay with the troop. They are ready to move on. For some reason high adventure in the troop is out of the question. We had more scouts 14 and older in our troop than any other unit in our council, which covered over half the state of Oklahoma. And we did more high adventure than most crews, yet we even had adults that wanted to start a crew. Venturing works with a sponsor because they don't have their ego invested in the program. They want to pass along their sponsor skills (Law Inforcement, Medical Emergency, Aviation, Scuba and so forth) to the scouts and let them run with it. They provide a lot of support, but basically push them to lead a structured authority. I was in Scuba Explorers and they just were more professional. That was how our sponsor wanted it run. There was a lot of bonding with the group. Barry

Venturing could be a good resource for teaching troops how to backpack. We had one crew that even planned and ran a backpack themed Camporee. And, maybe OA could find some service in this area as well. They are after all BSA's outdoor experts. We're going get those Backpacking MB numbers up one way or another. Not sure I can help on Business Management. Aren't they called "The Man"? Barry

Well I guess that is a problem of itself. Every state has plenty of backpacking, so Philmont should not be the got-to for Scout Backpacking.

It would seem you could earn the big Reptiles MB along those trails...one way or another. Barry

I think it will only get worse with the addition of girls because very few moms have any camping experience. The councils could help out by providing some high adventure with giving adults some experience, but that is likely and expense they can't afford. Barry

Yes, that is the issue with Venturing, it is an adult driven program. Adults start the program with enthusiasm, but when that dies out, so does the program. 3 out of 5 Venturing Crews die within 5 years in our district. Explorers was, and is, no different, the only reason they appear more resilient is they had sponsors to continue the enthusiasm through generations of adult leaders. I'm guessing that sponsorship is why Venturing is fading. Barry

I'm wondering how much of that is attributed more to fewer experienced adults, or the culture of kids wanting less outdoors. Barry

I did this in our district and it works pretty well. You have to sell the troop, but that's not very hard because it's easy recruiting. We did it for weak den leaders in our district. Barry

This reply doesn't really apply to the OP, but this is one of the few times where I disagree with malraux. At my first Blue and Gold as a CM, I went over to talk to the two Webelos dens who were crossing over that night. Most all the scouts were going to one troop. I asked the scouts why they chose that troop, and the general answer was that troop had the best game of all the troop meetings they visited. A year later I checked and 90% of those scouts had dropped out. I believe adults should have at least 50% participation in finding a troop. There should be a family discussion along with the Den Leader, but sons and parents have two different objectives for joining a troop. Both should be considered. While malraux gives a good example of why the parent needs to listen to the son, my experience is his example is generally the opposite. The Webelos doesn't see the whole program because he is focused on the few minutes of the visit. Make the choice a family decision, otherwise the risk are huge. Barry

Freebies are harder on troops than packs because the unknowing can effect the patrol dynamics. The program is wrapped around the outdoor program, so eventually commitment (or lack there of) stresses the boy run part of the patrol method. It's hard enough with registered scouts, now the patrols have to contend with scouts who say "maybe". Advancement and Den cost tend to push the families on the Pack side, but that can take a little while until the program is in full motion. Worse case is the cubs not getting their badges with their buddies. Barry

Yes, but he knew enough to think he was on the ballot, so somebody was coaching or something. As far as we know, the SM might be considering some changes, but does he even know the family is upset. Barry

You are doing the right thing for the wrong reason. Kids don’t burn out if they are having fun. The reason those Webelos were excited to cross over is likely a good den leader. We had two Eagle dads join our pack who couldn’t wait to be leaders. They both planned to be SMs, and would have been great. I encouraged them to wait a couple years, but both had to be leaders then. One took over as CM and the other a DL. They were fantastic and the cubs loved them, but both burned out took a few years off after their sons crossed over. We lost two really good Eagles dads that way. The adults need to pace themselves if they want to lead in the troop. We tried to keep new parents out of the program completely as Tiger parents and ask them to just observe. Then get moms to lead the Bear/wolf years with dad taking over at Webelos. That plan rarely happened because some adults can’t wait to lead and are stuck the whole five years, while other groups don’t have any dads wanting take over. But two years max should be the goal for adults volunteer time. They can still help, if they want, but just assist. Barry

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The BSA is tapping into a whole new demographic the size of half the youth population and you didn’t expect to see a jump the first year? Ive said many times here that Nationals membership numbers are complicated and confusing, but there should be a bump. I’m good at analyzing these things, but I’m clueless on this one. My first thought is National really bungled the introduction. Barry

I scouters in general don’t know what experience Venturing can provide that troops don’t. It use to be Girls in our area. But apparently the shiny thing “Eagle” is hard to resist.

I don’t think this unusual, my dad said he saw such things happened both in scouts and sports in the 1940s. It’s a cross between boys-will-be-boys and right of passage hazing. It’s being rooted out today by a change in cultures. Of course that being said, I never experienced or witnessed such behavior in my lifetime. While it may have been going on for a long time in some places, I don’t think it was ever generally acceptable to the population. Barry

I would suggest asking to visit Webelos at one of their den meetings to observe. That is a good place to talk with the leader and market your program. If you lead the discussion right, you can learn a lot of what they want from a troop and what the other troop isn't providing. Barry