Eagledad

The problem is the culture. We used to go to a camp in Colorado every other years because it had a "Boy Run" culture and fit our troop program better. The summer temperature highs were in the 70s compared to the Oklahoma 100s, but I'm trying to make a point here. Units can have a "boy run" culture, but leaders of those units will explain that planning is easier for their program if they just skip District and Council activities that don't fit their program concept. The truth is that units in general mimic the basic perception district has of its scouts. It takes a strong group of adult leaders to build a program with a different preception. I have often said here that the best way to make changes at a district level is through training. If all the course slipped in the term "Youth Run" with a very basic explanation of "scouts making independent or critical decisions for their activities, "Trained" leaders would start shifting their efforts toward that vision. Not because they agree or disagree with the concept, but because the concept is how they were trained. Add a few Patrol Method clinics to help the adults understand how to build toward such program, all the units of the district would resemble the District "youth run" concept. The culture would build and reinforce the concepts through District activities like Camporee, Weboree, Cub Camps and so forth. Barry

I disagree that it isn't National. Leadership actions model the action of the members of the program. While maintaining quality is challenging across 50 states, National hasn't shown itself as capable. Most of the changes coming from National in the last few years are abrupt and with little warning to the units and certainly without opinion from the volunteers. The information of the changes and their implementation are chaotic and inconsistent. The only reason the units can function as well as they do at a National level is because there is enough old policies and procedures to hold through the chaos. The girls program has been rammed down the throat of the units along with confusing information and a bit of hostile marketing, which has lead to more of a us vs them introduction than a lets work together for a common goal. The BSA is in trouble and adding girls is probably the best path to survival. But it should have been a team effort from the units to National. Instead National kept everything close and secrete. Nobody knew what was going on until it happened. I have been consistent in saying that the boys will get the short end of the stick because the focus on the girls will be pushed on them off to the side. That is what fueled this discussion the last couple of days. Is that really fair. The Boy Scouts of America has been the Boy Scouts of America for over 100 years, and now the adults are praising the girls as the bigger better part of the program. Oh, they don't necessarily mean to be so blunt, but there are several very motivated and passionate groups of adults that don't mind the introduction being a bit of a "In Your Face" to the traditionalist scouters, and even the so called sexist of the BSA. So how are we going to stop this growing Us vs. them attitude? Don't you find it interesting that we are having long discussions of using the right terminology of what to call the scouts, but nothing explaining that bragging about their girls mopping up the boys in their activities may not be taken well at this time of the scouting program. I know, they can't help themselves, but hopefully they get the terminology right. Different adults have different reasons for wanting girls in the program, and they aren't doing a good job of hiding their excitement about it. If the program is to survive this, National has to come clean with the when, why, how, and who of the plan for the future. They need a by-in from the units so everyone is working toward the same goal, for the same reasons. The units need to know where they stand with the future and that is part of the problem. It's all a mystery. My blame starts with National. Barry

Even after you mentioned adults cheating, I still didn’t consider it. I’m embarrassed because I was blaming the unit leaders, but now I’m wondering it they were coaxed into going. I agree Cocomax should meet with the Key3, but I’m suspicious they are the problem. If it’s the key3, then it’s the Council. Shesh Barry

Really? Why? Your post doesn't make sense because I've seen nothing in this discussion to support your thought. If anything, you can expect praise and pats on the back. The discussion isn't about camporees, or the reactions (well mostly) to the girls performance, or even fairness. It's about adult leaders with social agenda's to prove a point. Let me give you a hint: I have found that in most cases, true boy run patrol method troops are not typically the best uniformed troops because the adults aren't intruding on the scouts independence to make right or wrong decisions. Maybe brand new youth run troops are an exception, but see my point. Now, I'm not saying to encourage your scouts dress slobs, I'm saying that the scouts actions well tell who makes the decisions of the program where character is developed by the scouts decisioins. I have a question that I really don't know the answer: Most new troops are challenged just to get the first couple camping trips under their feet. What is so attractive about camporee's where the leaders are giving up value time to get the unit up to speed? And in front of everyone. It had to be pre-planned on somebodies schedule weeks or months ago. What is the thinking? Barry

Be the staffer the young scouts think you are. The youth staff are larger than life to young scouts. They will leave camp wanting to be like "that" staffer. I told my scouts who staffed camp to not burst that bubble. Don't swear, don't mock. Be bold, daring, a friend, and be fair. Be different, but be yourself. You can't fake being cool. You gotta be your own cool. I know of scouts who learned to play the guitar because they were inspired by a staffer. Another learn to tell jokes and be quick with cleaver quotes to help people feel better, just because of a camp staffer. Quiet staffers who model confidence inspire shy want-a-be leaders. The waterfront is a serious area, show that seriousness with humanity, and humility. You are likely creating a vision for young scouts to work toward. Be the staffer the young scouts think you are. Barry

It's kind of funny, there is a whole another discussion about how adults are trying to get their scouts to the "Scout" rank. Even one adult talking about the struggle of her scouts just focusing on a patrol name. You know, normal scout and new unit stuff. So, you define the only choices. I am skeptical because not only do I not believe a typical NEW unit can get to speed in one month under normal circumstance, I don't believe the scouts would set that as a goal. It's not like my emotions are in conflict and I have to lash out yelling cheating cheating to feel better. I have worked with dozens of units to help them start and come up to speed. It's all they can do to just function as a troop on their first campout. I miss the old qwazse that spoke with maturity and wisdom. He inspired me. Barry

I am quite sure we are going hear many many underdog stories for a while. Remind me, why are girls the underdogs? Barry

My integrity. There is no mention of cheating in my post, only yours. Barry

And what about stoves. Scouts need to practice making good decisions when the are surrounded by temptations. First step is educate them to the risks. Some individuals will still make bad choices if given the room, but usually the swaying by the other members of the patrol prevail. Barry

Oh for Pete sakes. I shouldn't even respond to the derogatory implication. It's beneath you. Barry

Our scouts didn't the camp on fire, but they were just as careless. I asked, with a great deal of scowl, that the PLC handle fire safety at a troop level. Looking back, I would have done more including the PLC arranging all the patrols visit a hospital where doctors and nurses can impress the long term seriousness of injuries caused by fire. My hopes are that a few pictures with explanations from these professionals would impress the seriousness of fire safety. Until a person has had personal experience with grass fires, it's hard to grasp the speed they travel. More fire fighters are killed working grass fires than any other type of fire. Barry

Working with youth for so many years has shown me that the wiring and makeup of males and females are very different and require different styles of activities to get the most growth. Folks today for various reasons are voluntarily naive to the mental and physical complexities of males and females. They selfishly and willingly sacrifice the positive growth of one gender to advance the growth of the other. In the case of scouting, and at least until puberty, girls have the advantage with their mental processing in a patrol method environment. The competitive nature of adults will used that advantage for their personal agenda. It's complex, but I feel the boys, and Patrol Method, are getting the short end of it. I know you aren't worried about girl troops and I agree that boys have a much better chance in single gender patrol. But there is a general gender cultural attitude of us vs them in this country at the moment. March is national Women's history month. Next month is, .....well it's not Men's History month. Just look at some of the responses in this discussion, some here think I'm putting the girls down. I don't have a problem with girls, I have a problem with adults. Ironically, mixing the genders, while sacrificing boy growth, would force a more united adult attitude of fairness into the overall program. Yes, boys will never have the opportunities their dads had in the BSA, but at least the adults would be forced to work for the equal goals. Unfortunately, most adults today use mediocrity as the tool to fairness, which will dilute the powerful influence of the Patrol method. The BSA has given up it's structure to build good men of character and leaders of integrity. I now hope they can at least get something similar to Cambridgeskip's program in England. I believe that program gives the most hope for boy growth. Barry

Yep, let’s monitor scouts closely and tell them what they can say, or rather not say. At least within hearing distance of the adults anyway. My usual advice is for the adults set the example with their actions and choices. But, that appears to be risky here. barry

Yep, repeating the same program over and over drives out the older scouts because even though they have achieved all the advancement requirements, they end up teaching them over and over. They want to be role models, not babysitters. Scouts want adventure and the adults want (should want) behavior growth. The 8 methods do a very good job of guiding the scouts in a fun and rewarding program. I find that while most young scouts aren't very interested in advancement, they become more ambitious as they get older. From a Eagles per Scouts perspective, our troop after five years was producing the 2nd most Eagles in the district. And the adults didn't push them. Well accept for parents. My point is that if the adults make sure the scouts are enjoying all of the program, they will stay long enough to eventually want more advancement in their experience. Balance of the 8 methods builds a solid program. The experience should be the motivator to grow with advancement, not the program directive. Barry

You are not a poor instructor. The FAA found in their research that Aviation GPS manufacturers needed to develop some commonality in their user interfaces so pilots didn't have to relearn a system every time they jumped into a different airplanes. Most pilots rent airplanes, so flying a different airplane each flight is not unusual. Barry

I can see why you think that. But, I believe I'm being fair that there is a lot of woman bolstering in our culture these days. My point is a lot of adults want the girls program to be successful, and they are pushing the girl units a differently than boy units to generate that success at the expense of the boys. It's the nature of adults. Most districts see adult driven agendas for one reason or another all the time. But, adding girls to a national program brings out a national commonality for adults wanting to prove the success of girl units. We already see it in the press. And as I said before, one local paper had a cartoon that said "now the girls aren't treated as underclass anymore." My response to that cartoon was wondering how the GSUSA leadership feel about being consider underclass, or are they treating boys as underclass. Barry

Here is where I started with my ASMs. I had them read the BSA Mission and Vision first. Then I had them read the 3 Aims and 8 Methods. In your case, ask what priority is advancement? The Mission and Visions sets the goals for the adults. The 3 Aims are how the adults measure their performance, leaving the scouts responsible for the 8 Methods. Surely even your ASM can see setting up camp and cooking meals is a high priority. The hard part for new adults is sorting out the complexity of the program in an understandable format to run a measurably productive unit. Adults (especially new adults) generally fixate on advancement (and uniforms) because those two parts of the program are easy to administer and easy to measure. It's the easiest way for adults to feel good about the program. BUT, advancement is boring to new scouts who joined an outdoor adventure program. The program needs balance and the adults need to learn how to guide the scouts to plan their balance. So, compromise with your ASM; do a little camping, a little cooking, a little hiking, and a little advancement. Balance and fun. Barry

Ah, never to late for men to learn. What age do girls instantly become experts at boy scout skills? That's nice, I'm sure you are proud. I would be too. But this has nothing to do with my post. There is no defense for a new one month old Troop of girls taking top honors at a Camporee in a Youth Lead Program. Someone had an agenda and I struggle to believe it was the girls. And to prove what? Adults in girls troops are better than adults in boys troops? And I'm sure they are having more fun too. Your whining to the wrong person. I'm a character developer, not an Eagle maker. I believe rank shouldn't be hurried. Balance program of the 8 Methods should be the priority. Your patrol is functioning normal in our troop and your sitting higher on my admiration scale. Patience and humility are the qualities of the best adult leaders. You seem to have a good start. Thumbs up and starting a youth run patrol method program. Barry

This is exactly how I would have done it. We have a large wooded city park near us that is ideal for orienteering, so we move the troop meeting to the park for this kind of stuff . The scouts welcome a refreshing change from the CO location, especially in the Spring. Barry

Are you saying that the normal natural talents of these girls in a patrol method program were enough to earn them the highest skills awards in the district, in just one month? Somebody was trying to prove something. Was it the girls? The list was warned about this. There is a reason single gender is preferred for growth in this age group. Not just scouts, but any area where growth is the primary objective. When one gender has an advantage to gain recognition or power over the other gender, the other gender naturally feel disheartened and belittled. The natural reaction is retreating away from the situation. In this case, the boys aren't just competing against girls, but the adults as well. If the girls really are that good, then there is no hope because I've never heard of a new scouts doing so well so fast. But, it's not really that, boys aren't stupid. The well dressed cheering adults standing next to that troop is the real advantage against boy run troops were adults are encourage to stand back. Why in the world would boys want to join an organization where girls are continually propped up as the good of scouting, and given advantages in their competition. Who wants that? We saw it on this forum for the last year. "Let the girls show the boys how to do it". Hey, if Sablanck had a boys troop leave the camporee with all the awards, would he give a big thumbs up for boys? Truth is the boys are going to have to put up with this stuff for quite awhile because women are the thing these days. It's on the news, the movies, and sports. Hey, what is the national theme this month? Meanwhile the boys are expected to keep doing their patrol method without the same kind of adult assistance for performance. And when the patrols are mixed, adults will praise the great leadership of the weaker sex as well. As I said, I observed over the years that girls are instinctively detail minded and that is an advantage over the instinctively visionary boys. Many adults will enjoy and justify the great leadership of the girls, and even how girls are more mature and better at these things. Adults can't help themselves, but at the same time, the boy run program now requires adult intervention just to kind of keep growth fair. Growth through independence will fade away and be replaced by accolades of advancement recognition and the stature of leadership. It's the times I guess. Remember your story of your daughter slapping the hand of the "Oklahoma" Boy who offered his help. Explain again why slapping away the offering of help "from a boy" was a good thing? Barry

Yep, definitely a great motivator to encourage more boys to join. Barry

Hmm. Usually I answer these questions with "Take the scouts for a ride in an airplane." I'll have to think on this one. Barry

Pretty good. Now, how about those knots? Barry

Your advice has always been very good and wanted. It's probably me. My kids even tell me that I can be too simplistic in discussions. "There goes dad being black and white again. We need some gray dad." But I've just developed a style over the years of where understanding the very basic of the subject first helps folks understand better how expand in a productive direction. Which is exactly what your post provided in this discussion. Barry

By the way DuctTape, my Webelos got just about all their requirements completed on outdoors outings and campouts, having fun. Barry