Eagledad

Eagle Mills area programs primarily designed to turn scouts into Eagles. Patrol method boy run programs, on the other hand, can be designed so well that scouts intuitively find themselves with the Eagle simply by participating in the program. One troop that always amazes me is Troop 232 in La Junta Colorado. Their program is based on the theme of the Koshare Indian Dancers. La Junta is about 3 hours from Philmont and they provide a place for troops to stop overnight for a small cost, and to watch their troop dancers in action. Well worth the visit. But, their list of Eagles is very impressive, and likely one of the largest list the Nation. Is that troop an Eagle Mill? Boy! it would be hard to find a troop where scouts work harder to earn their place of stature in that program. It's no gimmy. I'm not sure what good or bad we should say of Eagle Mills. I use to be an fierce anti-Eagle Mill person until I volunteered at the district level. Eagle Mills are basically adult run programs that set goals agendas for the scouts. Most Eagle Mill programs I've seen design the program to get the scout his Eagle by age 14. Our "put the adults out of business" program philosophy was at the opposite end of that spectrum. But, through humility, I learned that Eagle Mills do provide a place for families that would otherwise not participate in scouting. Is that so bad? That was the question that still challenges my idealistism of traditional scouting. On the positive side, Eagle Mills generally have well run programs. The scouts and the program look sharp and uniform. The adults are usually well trained and have a good reputation with the District and Council. There reputation is so good in fact, that they often set the standard for the district, which is where I struggled with them. District set the standard for units, and if the district standards are being developed by Eagle Mill programs, well it can hurt all the units as a whole. The only reason I still monitor and participate on this forum is to help units build a patrol method program where scouts can reach whatever dream they have for their scouting experience. Truth is that reaching the Eagle is just a matter of crossing off a list of actions. As some have said here, it's really not that big of a list. But, looking from a distance at all the requirements to earn Eagle, the goal appears daunting and a lot of work. Not what most boys want from their scouting experience. I was told by a lot of scouters that I should set the goal of Eagle into every new scout. But, is that fair for an 11 year old? Our program encouraged scouts from their first day on, to take one step at a time. Set one goal to learn one knot, when you reach that goal, set another goal for another another knot. Don't look at the bigger goal until you want the bigger goal, until you feel ready for the bigger goal. Write that goal in your book if you need. One small step at a time, that is all we asked. The scouts learned a process of planning small steps to reach larger goals. Not just in advancement, but in the goal of planning the next meeting, the next hike, and the next campout, the next high adventure trip, and on and on. It's a process that most successful businesses use. In fact, it's the same process that Eagle Mill use. The only difference is that the process in a patrol method program is controlled by the scout, not the adults. Developing a plan of small steps to reach bigger goals became woven into the fabric of leadership and running the troop. I didn't understand the success of this approach until the district OA representative visited a troop meeting. When and I asked why he was visiting us, he said that the last three sets of leaders for our OA came from our troop. He wanted to know what we did differently. I was on the inside and couldn't see how, or even if, our scouts were different. But he said our scouts were good at setting long range goals and creating realistic plans to reach those goals. The Scouts from the other troops were intimidated by long range planning, so they always voted for our scouts. Reaching big goals by setting small goals is exactly how our program developed our scouts, so that made sense to me. That was moment that I though, "hey this really works". Five years into our program, our troop had grown from 17 scouts to 70. Far larger than we wanted for a patrol method program. I learned that we were producing the 3rd largest number of Eagles in the district that year (we were averaging 1 Eagle every 2.5 months). The other two troops were mega Eagle Mill troops of more than 200 scouts. I guess what I'm trying to say is what some others here are saying, if the troop encourages scouts to dream and provides a program that doesn't get in their way of their dream, Eagle is just part of the program. One last thing, I always like to express my observations of the topics we discuss here. The one difference of Eagle mills compared to other troops is they don't typically have a good older scout following. Even the mega troops in our district had to add a Venturing Crew to entice the older scouts to stay on. Our troop that was 1/3 the size of the Mega Troop Eagle mills had more scouts over the age 14 than any unit (Venturing or troop) in the whole Council. 40% of our troops were scouts 14 and older. That is why I always say that the success of a troop program should be measured by the older scout program, not the younger scouts program. Build a program that challenges scouts through age 18, and they will stay long enough to trip over the Eagle. Over 40% of our Eagles pass their EBOR at age 17. Barry

From the pack perspective, the AOL ceremony should not occur on the same night of the crossover because combining two ceremonies for one Den makes for a very long boring pack meeting for the other 4/5ths of the pack. From the Den leaders perspective, planning one AOL award ceremony for a whole den at one time forces the den leader to perfectly time the program to get all the scouts AOL advancement completed to that specific date. Otherwise, forcing scouts that finish early to wait for the rest of the den, and that's not fun. What we did when I was CM was award the AOL "patch" to each individual scout after they completed their requirements. Then , as kind of a last respects ceremony for the Web IIs, we awarded all the Webelos together the AOL "Pin". Scouts loved it and that ceremony can be done at any meeting, even Pinewood Derby if need be. Then the pack can do the crossover at any other pack gathering/meeting of their choosing. Breaking up the ceremonies has it's obvious advantages, but I liked not obligating the crossover to a specific night because some Webelos Den Leaders don't like to be forced to crossover their scouts on a specific time. The bridge can be pulled out anytime at any meeting. I miss the old days that The Latin Scot talked about, mainly because crossing over all the Webelos at once creates the problem of forcing pushing troops to advance the scouts as a group, and discourages the idea of giving scout individual independence for making decisions. It also intuitively drove the troops away from mixed age patrol to same age patrols. I believe that one policy change did more harm to Patrol Method over the last 60 year than any other policy change. Barry

This one sentence tells me that your troop is on the right track. Based on my experience. the most difficult challenges for an SPL is less hands-on and delegating. And these are two great skills for scouts to learn for the rest of their life. I agree. I teach adults to push their patience to the point of when the scouts aren't having fun. That is when the program has to pulled back a tad. And, that is difficult for younger troops because the scouts (and adults) don't know how to change the program before it reaches that point. For example, I learned that most scouts advertise they will make a bad decision before they make a bad decision. We had a scout walking barefoot through camp. All the scouts saw it. Then he took off running and broke his toe on a tree root hidden in the shadows. I asked the scouts why they didn't warn him to put on shoes. They basically said they didn't know they were supposed to. Well, we all learned a new skill that day, everyone has permission to stop bad decisions before they happen. Not only do they have permission, but stopping bad decisions is expected of everyone. And if not, those who could have stopped the bad decisions will likely have consequences. That is one small lesson, but you get the point of how a young troop grows into a more mature troop. The scouts need to be trained (more importantly given permission) to speak up before things go too far sideways. They will do it after a little practice. One myth about scouts is they like chaos. Nope, they hate it just as much as adults. Our PLC hated large groups of new scouts because it meant chaos. But, once they developed a few lessons on controlling young scouts, they become more independent to prevent bad decisions going too far. The best troops have adults who keep pushing out the line to find the limits, and readjust. The key is that the line never is stagnate. One the scouts learned they were expected to stop bad decisions, there was no need for adults to monitor situations to prevent bad decisions, the scouts were in control. Now the adults push the line out a little farther. So long as the adults keep moving the "gone too far" line out, the program will grow and mature. And it is amazing to watch. Barry

We tried several patrol guidance practices in all sorts of ways. What I personally liked best was the SPL actively working with the PLs to learn how they were doing and observing any struggles. If just a single PL was struggling, then the SPL (and SM if needed) worked with him personally. But, sometimes we found that our patrol method process has a general flaw that caused most of the PL to struggle in a specific area, so we did a training session, usually about 15 minutes long. Sometimes the SPL might notice a general issue that doesn't require a training session, but could use some SM advice. Then I would do a SM Leadership Development minute at the PLC meeting specific to that observation (typically about 5 minutes). Where we struggled with patrol advisers is their knowledge of problems that crop up. More often than not, they came to the SM for advice of advice to give the PL. For us, Patrol advisers turned out to be just a layer of oversight that didn't add an any advantage or value to the patrol method process. And it required a lot of adults, which was never our goal. As I said, our troop was pretty large for a patrol method boy run program, so we tried ideas mostly to help the SM. But, we found a mature program doesn't really require constant oversight. Rather, the scouts need to trust avenues for advice and guidance, which is in the SPL and PL handbooks. You can tell a more mature program by the quality of the SPLs. Our SPL are expected to run meetings and serve the PLs. Serving the Patrol Leaders is understanding their needs and making their path to those needs easier. It's the ultimate practice of servant leadership. I'm not suggesting a specific path because the skills and experience of the adults may require an approach that is step toward to a mature boy run program that I would never consider. As long as the adults have the goal of patrol method being the main vehicle for scout growth, the adults should make changes to keep that goal clear. Barry

I think you are right. Including the ASMs in the PLC meeting could work in a mature program where the adults and scouts understand their place. Adults have some good ideas based from experience, and sometimes getting the information first hand would remove a level of communication bureaucracy. But, the meetings would require a mature SPL confident enough to not be intimidated by the adults' respected stature. That maturity doesn't require the SPL to be confident in running a meeting, but confident enough to engage with the adult in a mature friendly manner. That level of confidence requires some development of the program. The "No ASMs" allowed meetings are generally a reaction to bad experiences, it certainly was with ours. But, as the program matures, the expectation of the SPLs will mature enough to control the meetings. Maturity means the scouts and adults respecting each other as equal partners in the program. Something that just can't be said, but practiced until attitudes and habits of respect are developed in both groups. In reality, very few parents can just switch off their parent roles the day they become a troop leader. Same goes with new scouts, adults hold a level of respect that is hard to get past without some practice. Both need time to mold into a trust relationship. I also agree that a large portion (at least 50/50) of the SM's responsibilities are to train and guide the adults for their side of the program. One other thing, I realize that our program was 100 scouts strong when I left as SM, a troop of 20 scouts could be a different discussion. Barry

Before National turned Eagle into more of an association goal, around 3 percent of scouts earned the award. That is very close to the same statistic of companies that reach the Fortune 500 status as well as the natural leaders and visionaries in the population. I would expect that the ratio is about the same for above average BSA units. I'm not sure how an above average unit would be measured, but I expect growth or consistent high output performance as a function of program would be on the list. Our program motto was "Put the adults out of business", so we had to constantly change parts of our program to move toward that goal of maturity. I would expect that average performing troops don't have high performance goals that require constant evaluation, so they don't require much program change. High performance is subject to leadership, more to the point, usually one dominant leader. So, there is no surprise that those units loose some of there performance with leadership (Vision) changes. I can't recall a single high performing unit that didn't suffer from a leadership change except for troops sponsored on military bases. I imagine that the discipline of leadership and subordinates of the military carries over into the units, making the program during leadership changes more consistent. Barry

Yes, fact of the matter is that we are just humans. I came to this humility when I started volunteering at the district and council levels and realized most adult leaders are just doing they best they can. Many of us here preach idealism so that readers can see the vision or goal as a compass to work toward. In truth, our troops don't look near as idealistic as our preachings. I certainly don't mind (I in fact rather enjoy) telling stories of our not-so-perfect program as we trudge toward the idealistic goal. But then I would be typing for hours. So idealism is easier and faster to make the point. Barry

Good point and I agree. This level of independence certainly pushes for above average maturity for both the adults and scouts, but is more fragile to both adult and scout leadership changes. Still, it's fun and rewarding to watch. Barry

Jameson, I always enjoy and look forward to reading your posts about your troop because it is a well oil machine. But, the adults handing over all those bullet points to the scouts (including your last sentence) is the next step toward stepping up to a new plateau of scout growth and program maturity. I have the t-shirt. Barry

One of my WB tickets in 1995 was visiting 5 troop PLC meetings to learn ideas of how scouts run them. Four of the five troops I visited went exactly this way. I visited other troop PLC meetings over the years along with OA youth leaders meetings over the years and saw the same problem. It happens a lot and the main reason is the adults don't know how to run meetings, so they don't teach the SPL how to plan and run meetings. Dysfunctional PLC meetings lead into dysfunctional youth run programs. As a result, the adults takeover. Adults have a hard time taking themselves out of the process of a boy run program. One ASM taught me a very good lesson at our first summer camp, if you can see that you are getting so involved that you can't shut up, it's time to go on a 5 mile hike. That advice changed they way I involved myself in our boy run program. As for the adult requirement, I handled this a couple of ways, even back in the 90s; I either sat near the open door of the room where the PLC was meeting, or we found a place outside or inside where all the adults and scouts could observe the meeting from a distance. Now I don't know how those applications work with the new rules, but I find that either the adults look for a way to make it work, or they look for a way to not make it work. I was a "take a 5 mile hike" kind of leader. Barry

I think the Scout 3a. requirement is silly anyway. Like the Scout Oath and Law, they don’t really care until reflecting on the experience. Barry

While I was SM, anyone other than a member of the PLC weren’t allowed without permission from the SPL. ASMs needed permission from the SM to call the SPL. That was so the SM could explain that unless they had announcement during new business, they weren’t allowed to speak. ASMs rarely visited. More often than not, the SM doesn’t attend either, or for only a few minutes, because the SPL briefed the SM on the meeting agenda the night before. The SPL briefs the SM on the PLC discussions later after the meeting. I don’t know why, but ASMs just can’t keep quiet. And once they start giving their strong opinion on the discussion, it takes a confident mature SPL to politely interrupt the adult and continue the meeting forward. Now there was some concern the ASMs weren’t getting important information from the PLC, so we asked a senior scout to attend the meeting for anyone who wanted a briefing after the meeting, and that worked great. The senior scout role kind of turned into a Troop Guide Responsibility for the adults because he turned into their goto person for information, which everyone enjoyed. One other thing about our troop, we run 30 minute weekly PLC meetings before the troop meetings. We found keeping up with troop business weekly was a lot easier and they fit into the scouts personal time better. We did add 30 minutes to the first PLC meeting if the month to plan the next months theme agenda. Barry

I always wanted to do that. Not only is it fun (once you get past the saddle soreness), it teaches responsibility of animals because the horses require maintenance everyday. I’ve not done a cavalcade trek, but I’m pretty sure the scouts are taught to take care of their mounts after a long ride (grooming, feeding, etc.) before they set up camp. Certainly before they start preparing the evening meal. Barry

Yes, that’s them. I’m still wearing them 20 years later. Good investment. Barry

I teach in ( adult training) the best way for adults to get past their fears of giving scouts independence is teach them the skills that will ease the fears. Now, what are your concerns? What skills do your scouts need? Barry

I’m not trying to be condescending here, and I certainly don’t want to be part of what I think is but if a silly discussion. But your posting is more of a baby sitters mentality to you scouts. Our scouts have two rules that must be strictly followed at camp; always have a buddy and always tell your Patrol Leader where you are at. If the adults feel the need to watch their scouts to prevent them from harm, the scouts will never trust the adults are giving them the independence to fail. Trust is key to patrol method success. Let the scouts pick the shirts. Barry

I assume the bunching down makes a tight seal on the boot. Dusty trails is a real pain at summer camps and can get uncomfortable as it seeps into the shoes. I never had this problem at camp or on the trail. Also, long socks are best for bunching and they come in handy pulled up on the cool mornings, especially backpacking. I don’t know if they still sell them, but BSA sold some great long hiking smartwool brand socks in uniform colors. A little pricey, but great for scouting activities that requires full uniform like adult leader training. I love them for Woodbadge. Barry

Hiking boots and smartwool socks. I’ve tried running shoes like most wear during camp but my feel are sore by the end of the day. The boots provide good support and the sock breath well keeping the feet dry. Also bunching the socks down on the boot keeps the dirt and chiggers away from the feet and ankles. I learned this from a forum member 22 years ago. Barry

As an aside, I ran into our troop SPL last week wearing the same troop t-shirt we designed in 1994. It was nice to see some things never change. The design is on a gray shirt, by the way. Barry

Troops that fail to keep older scouts typically and usually have a program that hasn’t matured past a first class advancement type of program. Older scouts are young adults requiring adult mental and physical activities that stimulate growth. Where troops fail is developing a program where the scouts spend the first two or three years advancing, then the next two or three years teaching younger scouts advancement. So, the adults are expecting the young adults to repeat their scouting experience all over again. Adults (older scouts) need adult mental and physical activities and troops suffer from not giving them the responsibility for the troop program. Build a program designed to put the adults out of business. Build a program that if the adults didn’t show up, nothing would change. Troop quality should be measured by the older scout program because they are the role models and set the program tone and maturity. But most troops today measure quality from their advancement performance. That is typically a sign of immature adult leaders. Also frustrating is adult misunderstandings of older scouts: Older scouts don’t like working with younger scouts. FALSE. Older scouts thrive on responsibility, especially guiding younger scouts. They don’t like classroom teaching or repeating simplistic first class program activities. Older scouts only want adventure. FALSE. Adventure activities like anything else get old and boring. Young adults need problems that require creative solutions, like the problems that troops typically run into. Older scouts should always be the first go-to resource for troop problems. Older scouts would rather hang with young adults their own age. Of course we all enjoy fellowship with folks of common interests, but that doesn’t override the pleasure of responsibility. They love responsibility. Give older scouts the reins of the program and they will figure out when they need a break with their peers. I learned from my experience of helping troops improve their older scout program that they tend to resist their program needing changes. In general, they believe the scouts are the problem, not the program. So, I learned to suggest program ideas instead: More adventure in the troop program. More adventure allows older scouts more creativity in planning and executing the activities. It also gets away from gets away from the stale first class program. Only the SM at PLC meetings and even just for a few minutes. To build a program that doesn’t need adults, the scouts need experience of running a program without adults. The PLC meetings are a perfect practice. Oops, I’ve spoke too long. Mrs. Barry says I gotta sign off. Hope this helps. Barry

The posters here are giving the GSUSA too much credit. A mentor of mine had been the equivalent of the Council SE for several years of in her GSUSA career. She quit because leadership progressively changed. She explained that when these leaders are confronted with difficult situations, they tend to be reactionary. This was certainly the case when my wife advised our area leader of a difficult situation with one of her troops families. The nonsensical reaction is the reason our family quit GSUSA. Dont expect reasonable decisions from the GSUSA. Nor the BSA. Barry

The uniform symbolizes a uniform heart and mind. Uniformity symbolizes the whole of the group working in unison for a common goal. Uniformity also requires individuality of each member for the common whole to reach the goal. Like the complicated workings of a Swiss watch, each piece is different to the other pieces, yet the failure of a single piece stops the process of the whole. I tell my scouts the uniform is important because everyone becomes equal to the whole of the patrol. The poor scout is equal to the rich scout. The more educated are the same as the less educated. The scout with learning disabilities is equal in uniform with the witty patrol mate. We are equal in uniform. Yet, the uniform also gives each scout their own identity. A scout is identified by their patrol and troop. Their experience is evident by their rank and position of responsibility. The uniform identifies Arrowmen and other respected honors. I can walk up to any uniformed scout and request specific aid simply by looking at the individuality of the the scouts uniform. Each individuality of the patrol is a working piece of the patrol whole. The uniform is more than a shell of the individual, it’s also a state of mind. Uniformity of the whole is dependent on each member of the team filling a need to reach the unified goal. The more uniform the team, the more efficient their process and reaching the unified objectives. I see this efficient uniformity in high adventure crews at the end of a trek. The strenuous requirements of the trek mold the crew to become so uniform in mind by the end of their trek, they don’t even need to communicate with each other in breaking camp and hiking the trail. It’s beautiful to watch. We also see something like this in our patrols at the end of summer camp. But, I’ve never seen a more uniform patrol than the one patrol I saw at Philmont. These scouts wore the full uniform sharply during their whole trek. When ever we crossed paths with that crew, they were marching, singing and chanting in uniform stride. It was the ultimate in a uniform heart and mind. When one member made a decision, each individual reacted without question in unison to compliment the single action. That was 20 years ago and I know their scoutmaster still smiles. But one doesn’t have to dress in uniform to be uniform. The goal of patrol method is to develop a uniform heart and mind. Bringing uniformity to a uniformed mind is as easy as serving others. When we think about it, serving others is a desire of bringing uniformity into a relationship. We can see the desire of developing a uniform heart when the patrol leader serves the patrol in guiding a path to the unified goal. But there is just as much uniformity required, if not more, in the desire of uniformity by serving the patrol leader and other patrol members. So, if serving others is a desire of bringing uniformity to the group, imagine the impact when serving the community through service projects. Many adults see service projects as a requirement to sign off, but the selfless desire to serve builds a unified heart with community. That is why the “Citizen” Aim is so important. The uniform should also reflect the heart and mind of the scout who wears it. I know this to be true because I could often tell when a scout was in a personal struggle at home (divorce) just by the way they wore their uniform, or rather, the unconventional way they wore the uniform. If a the SM wants a true measure of the heart of the troop toward the program, they only need to observe them in “THEIR” decision of wearing the uniform. I hear it often that the uniform brings pride into the scout. Ibelieve the opposite, the uniform reflects the scout’s pride of being a scout. What about those looking in? What uniformity do they see in the scouts? Our troop requires wearing a uniform during travel so the scouts are identified to their responsible adults. But, the true indication of uniformity in the program came when the scouts aren’t wearing a uniform while coming home from summer camp in Colorado. Between the week at camp and our white water rafting stop on the way home, we agreed a clean set of clothes for the long drive home would be the most comfortable. After several hours on the road, We stopped for supper at a pizza restaurant in the Texas panhandle. The adults hung out in the parking lot for a few moments to clear the minds of the long drive. When we walked in the restaurant about 10 minutes later, the SPL came over to explain that the PLC had already set the patrols away from the other restaurant patrons as well as the troop adults. The 60 or so scouts could have overwhelmed the much smaller local crowd, but they were at their best in behavior and serving. If that wasn’t enough to impress this SM, we learned later that some of the local patrons and restaurant manager picked up the tab for half of our pizza and all the drinks. The manager said the SPL took control as soon as the scouts walked in door discussed with other scouts how the they would pick tables where they wouldn’t bother anyone else. It seems that while we weren’t in uniform, the uniformity of their hearts and minds were in clear view of the locals. And the locals responded. Adults always struggle with the uniform because in general vanity clouds the mind. If they could see the uniform as a tool for developing the heart, then they can approach the challenges of the uniform from a different perspective. A perspective that will live in the scouts heart and mind for the rest of their life. Barry

That’s not confusing at all.😳 Barry

What a great question. I have not thought of them that way, but it makes sense. Trustworthy and loyal are traits of integrity. Do the rest of the points have any value without integrity? Helpful, friendly, courteous and kind are action’s of the heart. They prove the scouts actions are serving, not self-serving. Obedient, cheerful, thrifty are qualities of character strength. Brave, clean and reverence are strengths of nobility. That’s Barry’s idealistic analogy, but it wasn’t hard. Of course the scouts likely don’t care, but the three (😁), excuse me, four Aims weren’t high on their list either. Barry

Isn't civic action just actions at a larger scale? If all decisions are based from the Scout Law, then all actions are likely servant. I think what qwazse is saying (I could be wrong) is that the GSUSA shouldn't be encouraging scouts to act toward any specific (GSUSA sponsored) issue because they could have a different perspective locally. Teach the scouts to be responsible and learn all the specifics of the issue, any issue and they will make the right decision on this one. Barry