Eagledad

I'm not sure I should respond in this discussion because the easy answer is hard. But I want to respond this this part about homesickness. We found that preparing the parents did indeed help the majority of our homesickness. What I personally believe is the parents are the ones who are homesick. For most scouts, the first summer camp is the first time the parents are separated from their kids for more than 1 night. They respond by telling their kids "I can't wait until you get back", or "when you get back, we will have fun doing this or that". Their kids are being programmed that being away from their parents is a "temporary must" that is bad for them. So, we sit down and work with the parents to start encouraging the kids to look at the adventure side and the fun activities. That the week will be short and packed with a lot of great memories. Then for the parents therapy, writes letters of how they are excited to hear stories of the fun, so have as much fun as they can get. Don't say how they miss them or that even the dog misses them. I feel that most kids go through some homesickness because their routine is changed so much for such a long period time. But, summer camps keep kids pretty busy, so they don't have much time to harp on it. And if the parents are excited for them, well, all the much better. Yes, preparing the parents a few weeks before summer camp helps a lot. That being said, there are now and then those chronic homesickenss scouts that nothing seems to help. Usually, there is something else behind the situation. Most often for us was divorce and the fear of separation. In most cases, the parent sees it coming and warns the troop. And in most cases, absolutely nothing helps. In the end, the parents came to pick those scouts. I think two in my experience. HOWEVER, I want to warn that other causes might be in order. I give the one example of the scout during our summer camp in Colorado. This is one of those scouts that absolutely loves camping and has a very supportive family. So he was a big surprise. He was so depressed that suicide came up in the discussion. But, on our way home from camp, as we descended below 5000 ft (camp was around 8000 ft.) the scout came alive. He was all of a sudden his chatty self and excited for the rafting activity we were doing on our way home. He, was a complete opposite of what he was the day before. We later discussed this with doctors and they certainly believe the scout was suffering from altitude sickness. After that, we prepared for altitude sickness future high adventure activities. I can count two that we encountered on backpacking trips. One at Philmont. It's amazing to witness because getting to a lower altitude fixes the problem. Barry

Same issue with cattle at Philmont. Barry

History shows that it will have a negative effect. I can't take greed out of National, but I believe there are ways to give them what they want and still build a manageable program. Create a program completely separate and independent of the other BSA program designed specifically for the youth of that maturity. No reference at all to the Pack. Then, National could recruit any toddler up to age 6. The structure would be more of a once or twice a month go and see. It could have some arts and crafts I guess, but it needs to be specific for parents looking for opportunities to spend enjoyable time with their toddlers. The program needs to be structure giving parents choices that fit their personal time. We could call this completely separate independent program, ummm, Tigers? I think it will work because this is what we did with our Tiger program and our Tiger Drop out rate went from 50% to 5%. Barry

Personally, I believe the program should tailored around the average parent, not pack size. The average parent works, so family time is limited. I found the average mother doesn't enjoy spending the day outdoors cooking and tying knots while bugs are buzzing around while her sweating head in the full heat of the day, or shivering from the cold. So, when the Bear leader mom who has been planning meetings that turns into one hour of herding cats three times a month for the last three years looks at the Webelos handbook, there is some hesitation. The average father of kids this age works more than 40 hours, which leaves little time to plan activities each week for a bunch of boys with the energy of the Energizer Bunny. Just about all Tigers can't read or write and haven't learned the discipline of sitting for 15 minutes. And yet National expects the average CM to pop out an hour of wonderful memories even though they don't have the life experience of planning a pack meeting full of songs, skits, and general fun for boys (and girls) covering the ages from thumb suckers to pre-teens. Like troops, unit size generally shapes to the ability of the leaders. That will never change. But, National could shape a program that fits better around the daily life of the average parent. Personally, I have never understood the reasoning of recruiting youth who are too young to dream of adventure and lack the understanding of patience. Second grade is when boys start to see the world from reading books. Second grade is also the youngest age for youth to understand the discipline of waiting, and at least grasp the discipline of respecting another persons time. As I said, if National wants to keep sons and daughter in the scouting program, they have to build a program for the parents of today. Barry

Lots of interesting stuff here. Before the big Tiger changes in the year 2000, the membership numbers showed just over 50% of the Webelos nott crossing over. The Tiger changes in 2000 were substantial enough that we predicted a noticeable troop membership drop in 2005/6. And that did happen. We didn't have any predictions on the Wolf/Bear or Webelos dropouts because we didn't see any reasoning for it. I heard later from someone close to National that the wolf/bear/webelos I dropout rates had also increased. Makes sense the Web II crossover numbers were adjusted as a result. We figured the Tigers would have a higher dropout rate (more time required from the parents), but I still don't understand the dropout rise in the other ages. I could only guess burnout eventually caught up to the parents faster as a result of the more demanding Tiger program. Actually the 50% drop out rate is really higher, but the difference doesn't count in crossovers, it counts in first year scouts. Many scouts, for whatever reason, register with a troop, but never show up. That registration stays on the books for a year. Which is interesting because first year Boy Scouts has the highest dropout rate of all the ages in the BSA. I don't believe difference has much of a bump on the first year scout dropout rate, but there is not data to verify it. Barry

You are right that the Bear year is the burnout year. That is the hump year of either making or breaking the den to succeed. Experts say that the average person gives 20 months of volunteer service willingly. After that? Well after that the volunteer requires support. Your pack is very much like my pack, support is provided. But, I don't think you realize how few pack are this organized. They are good at planning a head and they aren't very good recruiters. Most of them push the same leader to complete the 5 year tenure. They don't seek out a substitute. The leader nobly continues, but the effort lacks the enthusiasm for a fun program. Some find find a substitute, but with much reluctance and they drag the scouts to the finish. We had one den of 12 Webelos join our pack where the parents finished the two Webelos years by taking turns. Not one of them was the official leader, they just took turns to get the boys through. As good as it sounds, it wasn't a fun den. They had fun in our troop. If you look at the volunteering required just for the Tigers, you will find it to be about a forth of the pack volunteers. And many packs look to the new Tiger parents to fill leadership roles with the thinking that the sooner they get started, the more enthusiastic they will be. But, I find that first grader parents are reluctant because they are being hit with everything that first year: First year of school, first year of Sunday school, sports, dance, piano, karate, and Cub Scouts. I will never forget the very tired looking parent who came to recruiting night holding his thumb-sucking son .In our culture, the first year of elementary education is a huge maturing year for both the parents and kids. Night and day difference from the 2nd grade. Someone asked why Webelos is such a dropout year. It's the year where parents draw the line and make their kids finish what they started. Webelos II is the end of starting with Cub Scouts. I was told a few years ago that National is also seeing more drops at the Webelos I and Bear years now. I don't know. You've heard me say this many times, kids go with their parents. If you want happy scouts, make happy parents. That is what we did. Barry

The problem Tigers caused was requiring more volunteer time to an already heavily burdened volunteer program. I don't know the numbers now, but 20 years ago only half of the graduating Webelos continued to the next step of scouting, troops. I believe that 70% of those Webelos can blame their boring experience to adult leader burnout. It's too much, and now they have a Lion program. Barry

The tone of National for the last couple of years is chaos. I'm guessing girl membership change has everyone at National trying to catch up. The 2018 publish has likely been planned for several years, so putting it out on time was just easier than holding it back. What a great idea. Would a SM require much more in their handbook? Barry

I whole heartedly agree. In their ignorance of day to day character growth, these folks couldn't see the organizations real success. So, they made changes for a path of bigger indicators of success, numbers. I guess National's lesser view of outdoors and adventure in the 70s highlighted their arrogance of the traditional program value. But, the new Tiger program in the 1980s highlighted their greed. IMHO, the added burden of toddlers to an already full program teetered the scales negatively all they way to Venturing. The aged based new scout patrols have done a lot of damage to the tradition of Patrol Method, which is the heart of the BSA. But, I feel the harm from the additional burden of Tigers overshadows the shift away from traditional patrols. I believe the damage from aged based patrols would have eventually caught up with the program, but overburdened Pack program drove organization numbers down so much that National has became reactionary to the trend. And here we are. Barry

I don’t think it has much effect. Mosts scouts join with at least one friend who are generally the same age. Same goes for our crews. I can think of one situation that would have been a problem and that was a 16 year old working with a 11 year old sever mentally retarded scout. I can also see this as more of a problem for NYLT since the participants come from multiple units. Council might have to require two scofrom each unit. Barry

Can you think of one teacher that influenced the rest of your life. How about two? A coach? Maybe a friends mother or father. Im not sure how older older patrol mates are excluded from shared comraderie. I remember my patrol role models very well. I can list the influence they made on my life. Now if what you meant same age patrols can also have growth through shared comraderie, I certainly agree. But, it’s far more challenging to maintain that growth thru age 18. I believe the reason National doesn’t get deeper into explaining the patrol method is they just don’t know. First off, how many of the professionals at National had a youth patrol method experience. My opinions of patrol method are heavily based from my experience as a youth verified by my experience as an adult. Also, I’m not sure National really has much appreciation for patrol method. For most adults, patrols are just a convenient way to control large numbers of boys (youth). I was talking to a friend who is getting back to scouting. He is being asked to be the next SM, but he is concerned about the family scouting that is being discussed. And they have new girls that is causing youth protection confusion. Patrol method is a lower priority of concern. Barry

Philmont rangers like to hang the bear bag first thing after finding camp ( I was taught set up shelter first). Teach everyone to put all their smellables in one bag so they can empty their pack and grab their bag and throw it in the bear bag. And anything else that smells like a shirt with spilled food on it. Barry

Mmmm, need more opinions, but the thin plastic Gatorade bottles wear out quickly with rough treatment of backpacking. Maybe others here had a better experience. Pack covers are as important for protecting the packs at night as they are during the day because there isn’t enough room for them in the tents. It can rain almost every night. Nothing like packing a soggy pack. If you don’t want to purchase a pack cover. Consider heavy duty trash bags. One thing we didn’t consider on our shake downs was the size and weight of food. You’re packing for almost a week. ITS A LOT. So remember you may not be packing as neatly as you planned. We packed the tent torward the last because we could stuff it the what few spaces we had left. We packed lunch, and rain gear last so we didnt have to unpack everything getting to the bottom. Barry

Our council once polled the SMs for the pros and cons of the NYLT cours. The number 1 con was they didn’t know how to support their scouts because they didn’t know what they were taught. Request the course directors to leave one minute at the end of each class for participats to write a note of what they can do for the troop with that lesson. Then instruct the SMs to sit with their scouts and create a plan from each note. Barry

Not typically, but the situation is unusual. We had the scouts write ticket items (plan from skills learned during the course) and review them with their SM at the end of the course to develop a plan together. Barry

As someone who was responsible for the Council Junior Leadership Development and NYLT (JLTC), the average 14 year old doesn’t have the maturity for the advanced course. Maybe the girls do, but not the boys. Ideally, adult troop leaders observing the course would bring back more value to their troop. Barry

Yes, we got rid of the course and changed to as minimal training as we could. We found that leadership development courses should only be used to give enough basic tools for surviving the first month in office, or to fix a specific problem. We went from doing annual troop training weekends to a one hour course after each SPL election. Ironically, when we were doing the the troop weekend training course, a couple of troops asked if they could send a few of their scouts. Even though stopped running the course because we determined it was way too much effort for knowledge gained, those other troops who participated in our course took the syllabus and started running their own course. For them, it was a fun weekend and gave their older scouts something to do. Barry

Since I have little experience as an adult leader in a Crew, I take your word as gold. I find your post interesting because the crew members I found most bored were from General Interest crews. Based from my youth experience of Scuba Explorers, planning for scuba activities was relatively quick and easy. I agree that when open to do anything, a lot more time (and frustration) is spent deciding. Same goes with PLCs. Troops can sometimes get in a rut simply because repeating activities is easier than the pain of planning something new. Also, I may have said this somewhere else, but for the 20 or so years I was active, our district averaged loosing 3 out of 5 crews in their first five years. None of those crews were Specific Interest crews as far as I can remember. I think there are several reasons, but the main reason is the sponsors of specific interest crews are generally organizations or businesses specializing in that specific theme and don't loose interest. Sponsors of general interest crews are typically parents who move on when their kids move on. Barry

That my experience, it's not a theory for starting a discussion. Where did I say that? Often the older scouts encourage the younger scout to take on responsibility so the older scout has an opportunity to mentor. In fact, I often watch our SPL choose the ASPL and Troop Quarter Master for that very reason. Can a leader be anymore serving than that? Not in our council. Brown Sea (or whatever it was called) taught advanced leader skills beyond the handbooks in planning, meetings and working the group. District and councils teaching scout skills at advanced leadership courses makes no sense and are doing it wrong. There is not a power imbalance in a servant driven program. And successful programs are open for different ideas, dreams and ambitions. A program that forces scouts to different than who they want to be, it will find itself loosing scouts. This is the number one problem of programs that loose their scouts at age 14. But, ironically, you could observe several programs at once, you will find that the same age patrol type of troops struggle with keeping older scouts because the mature responsibility of role modeling and mentoring is encouraged. In general when scouts are brought up in a serving environment, older scouts will instinctively mentor. Again, that is my experience. This is where I saw a big problem with same age patrol. The scouts in same age patrol did not see a vision of mentoring younger scout growth. They saw a duty to do their stint, then move on. And that was it. As I said, that is why same age patrol troop struggle to get past age 14 in troops. Troops with mixed age patrol are far more likely to keep the older scouts because there is still challenges in the program for the maturing young adults. Call it what you want, it doesn't mater. What matters are role models are internal to the patrol to provide experienced knowledge and that doesn't exist in patrols where everyone has the same experience. OK, I'm not sure what you are picturing here, but I trust your are correct. We had another Scoutmaster not to long ago on this forum who liked to split hairs to be divisive. I don't see "teaching" and "doing" as two separate actions in the patrol. Like a neighborhood sandlot baseball team that practices the fun sport of baseball, a healthy patrol requires both. If there is a difference between you and I, it's where the definition of "good decisions" come from. Scouts have to be guided from a baseline of behavior to know the difference from good decisions and bad decisions. The SMs role is the gatekeeper of that behavior. In a program that uses role models to develop growth, the SM guides through the older scouts because, they are the role models to the younger scouts. The discipline of making good decisions has to start at the top and work its way down to be consistent through the whole program. You have seen me often say that the quality of a troop program is measured from the oldest scouts, not the youngest scouts. To me your struggle appears to be mixing older and younger scouts. You aren't alone. You might even be in the majority in this day and age. But, when adults start throwing out stuff like 16 year olds don't like to mentor 12 years olds and 12 year olds are intimidated by 16 years olds, I discard it along with older scouts need more adventure and only the popular scouts get elected. None of those fears work on me because I have the experience that debunks it. I have to stand up and bring balance to such ideas. You may not be a mixed age patrol kind of leader. It's just not in you to trust how the complexities of younger scouts learning and building confidence simply by watching older scouts. And even more perplexing may be the idea of serving others is one of the most important skills a scout can learn to be a great leader. Serving and role modeling go hand in hand. And, role modeling is instinctive behavior for post pubescent males. The biological phenomenon is a mystery to me, but I've seen the wonder so many times, I have have full faith in it. Personal leadership experience has very little growth value for boys 14 and younger. But get them to age 15 and Scouting is one of the best programs where adult scouts can actually express adult traits... if we let them. I'm not trying to convience you to change. I've been in enough of these discussions to know better. Your a fine leader and I have no doubt your scouts are getting a great experience. But I will be here to balance these discussions for sake of those who want to understand the whole picture. Those of us who present our opinions based from actual experiences are becoming fewer and fewer. I want to keep my experience alive for as long as I can. Barry

Our troop slotted two months out of the year for patrol campouts. They were very popular for the scouts and adults who supported them. Fishing and hiking seemed to be the most popular theme. To further encourage patrol independence, they are asked to find their own rides for both scouts and gear for all camp outs. If they need additional space for gear, the PQM calls the TQM to reserve space in the trailer. If a patrol needs the troop trailer, they can request as well provided the driver and PQM have been trained and checked out by the TQM. I imagine insurance may have further requirements today. We also encourage patrols to travel independently from the troop (or troop trailer), but we found that some of the parks and camps don't like the groups checking in over several hours. Barry

Well, I'm with you, this isn't the subject thread to debate. All I'll say is my experience is the opposite of your bullet points. Sadly, your bullets suggest scouts don't mature past juvenile self-servingness. As for giving up on teaching, well I guess, but again you are defining the two different mentalities for mixed age and same age patrols. Mixed age relies on the role modeling to foster growth. Same age relies on outside instruction support for growth. Mixed age from its conception was intended for self-contained independent patrols. Same age patrols require an outside support structure. They are giving up on teaching because their experiment failed. Patrol method is designed for independent growth and teaching doesn't allow that kind of independence. The fears behind your bullets say you don't trust (or even believe) role modeling has power for developing character. I have worked and counseled many adult leaders with the same thoughts about role modeling. The same age patrol approach to youth development simply doesn't lend itself to the original design of Patrol Method, and your frustration is reflected in your original post asking "What is the guiding reason for having patrols?". Watching those adults, you either have to change your expectations of scout growth, or just take what you get and know it's the best you can do. Barry

I think you just pointed out the failure. Same age patrols are a contradiction of patrol method because continued scout growth requires outside intervention from an experienced resources. Not that mixed age is the only method, it’s just preferred for growth relying on the patrol members. Many SMs used a same age patrol style because it fit their leadership style and goals best. But the troop structure requires some considerations to have success with same age patrols. i think it’s easier for a same age SM to work within the older traditional SM handbook than a mixed age SM working with the same age program. I’m speaking from the experience of working both sides. Barry

14 year old is an awkward age. We took two crews one year, one was made of 14 year olds, the other was made of 15 to 18 year olds. The 18 years olds were new ASMs (and they had a blast). Anyway, the 14 year olds stuck to themselves. They didn't like wearing the uniform during travel (required), while the older scouts didn't think twice about it. They just never seemed comfortable. As I said, awkward. But they were fine on the trail. That is where they bonded. I will suggest that you go again with this group in a couple of years. Treks with 16 and 17 year olds is so much fun. They are more relaxed and just know how to have a good time. Barry

Looking back, I can't recall very many scouts reflecting the leadership of their parents. Visa versa, some of our scouts also weren't a reflection of their really good leader parents. But, in most cases, the sons were remarkable reflections of their parents' character. Without getting into natural leadership (a whole different breed of leader), leadership skills have to be acquired one way or another. But what exactly is leadership? We push servant leadership in the scouting program, but what is servant leadership? I look back at two groups of recognized leaders in our troop that we guided to be servant leaders. I learned of the first group by a young proud freshmen scout one night at a troop meeting. We have three large high schools that feed our troop. One of those schools hands ballets to all 2000 of the students and ask them to pick the top 8 leaders of the school. Seven of the chosen leaders were scouts in our troop. The eight was a girl. I'm she would have been in our troop today.😎 So, how do high schoolers define leaders. Well, each of these scouts were active campers and experts with outdoors skills. Each had a reputation of trust and kindness toward all the scouts. Each were fairly quiet scouts, but more in the of a calm confidence, they weren't shy. They weren't braggarts, I never heard a single one of them mention their honor. Only the proud freshmen alerted me. They weren't silly, but more steady in their character. In my youth, these guys were top candidates for OA Arrowmen. Servants. At the same time, neither were they our top leaders. They all were good trusted leaders while on the PLC, but they weren't making a career of taking Positions of responsibility. They were scouts for adventure and the camaraderie of the patrol. I was quite proud, but not surprised. They were solid scouts. I learned of our other group of leaders one night when the district OA representative came to visit. We chatted for a while, but eventually I asked why his visit. He confessed that he wanted to see the program of the districts best youth leaders. His words. He said that scouts from our troop were well trained in running a large program. They we confident and skilled at setting goals and developing agendas to meet those goals. Our scouts were so accomplished with these skills, the scouts from the other troops elected them because they were intimidated. And it wasn't the same scouts, different scouts were elected each of the previous three years. I was to busy for OA, and frankly it wasn't the program of my youth, so I wasn't involved at all. so, I had no idea our scouts were so respected. Three of the 7 scouts scouts elected as leaders by their high school were also arrowmen, but none of them were the scouts the district rep was talking about. The scouts that where being elected leaders OA were had a differnt style than the scouts elected by their school. These had also been SPLs, ASPLS and Troop Quartermasters of our troop. These three positions are in our troop are very challenging and usually only taken on by the scouts who want and enjoy Positions of Responsibility. These guys also typically had the highest grades in school. As I said, we push servant leadership. Are they typical of servant leadership? I could go on and on, and on and on, bragging about our youth leaders, but these are two groups of leaders recognized outside of our troop. We weren't doing the bragging. Complete strangers were going out of their way to call them "Leader". They were recognized for their qualities. And yet, they were two completely different types of qualities. Are these qualities leadership qualities? More important to me, are their qualities the qualities of servants? My definition of servant leader is simply putting everyone else first, before ourselves. You know, the Scout Oath. That is all that we asked of all our scouts, leader or not. A servant leaders is just a by-product of a servant lifestyle. Quite frankly, I believe being a good servant is harder for followers than leaders. Leaders have one task of taking the Patrol to their goals. Followers have to question and trust the leader the whole way. Much much harder. So I find myself in leadership discussions always spread around the subject because I have witness so many good leaders of different styles. And this isn't just my opinion, this is the opinion of strangers out in the community. Their leadership styles are as diverse as the stars. I was the council Youth Leadership director, the head guy for Junior Leadership Training for all the council. I was the expert. And yet, all I can say that the one commonality for developing good leaders is let them make decisions based from character actions of being a servant. Or, follow the scout law. Teach you scouts to serve, and no matter their skills, I learned that they will be respected as "Leaders". This really is an amazing program. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I found that most boys aren't willing to do the kind of backpacking that will get them in shape. The altitude alone will slow them down no matter their shape. But, I've never had a scout dropout because he was out of shape. They can handle most trails. It's their feet that cause most of the physical problems on the trail. I recommend at least one, and two if you can, 5 mile hikes with full gear. That will give everyone enough miles to respect the weight of the pack and learn about foot (feet?) comfort. One of our younger scouts after one such hike decided the large jar of hair jell wasn't a good idea. And if the scouts are going to develop a blister, the 5 mile hike is the place to do it. If you can, find a long downhill slope. The downhill slope will determine if the boots fit properly because the feet will be force into the toe. A comfortable boot on flat ground can become too small on a downhill slope and stress and bruise the toes. Adults will find out quickly is their knees are healthy or require hiking poles. Also, the 5 mile hike is the better place to adjust the packs to each person. The weight needs to be carried on the hip belt with the shoulder straps slightly loose. But, often the vertical adjustments aren't set correctly after purchase (or the scout went through a growing spurt), so the straps need to be readjusted. For the vertical backpack setup, the shoulder strap attachment point should be about level with the top of the shoulder with all the weight sitting on the hip belt. As the scouts settle in and get used to their pack, they may need some readjustment, but it shouldn't be much. Good luck and have a great time. Barry