Eagledad

Good question. The short answer is that the boys perform enough of these skills in their normal fun everyday routine activities to demonstrate the troop average level of skill proficiency. Now, obviously including exercises in activities that require these is skills can be challenging. But, just one activity will demonstrate many skills from tying knots to leadership, and even living the Scout Law. Program activities provide the senior leaders and adults a wide view of troops skills proficiency. Skills proficiency, or lack there of, should be obvious to everyone. The program is maturing when the scouts observe trends of deficiencies and act to correct them. Also, a scout should have more than one conference, or intimate conversation, with the adult leadership before a BOR. So, many in fact, the scout doesn't even know that their casual conversation about the family gave the adult some insight to the scouts knowledge and experience in the troop program. These discussions can occur in the car during the drive to camp, or while backpacking to camp. A few minutes at a gas stop while drinking a coke. Scouts love to talk about themselves. Theoretically the scout could get his conference signed off during many of those discussions. The SM or adults should already know the answers to the questions in the conference the scout requested for sign off. A program that operates this way is a lot of fun for the both the adults and scouts because the constant maturing is rewarding. Even parents notice it. Barry

I find SM conferences are fine for random sampling and quality checks. The SM only needs to check a few Scout Books to see a trend. More than that has the appearance of checking up on the scouts. Barry

Hmm, yes, well! There are a whole of things wrong even before starting with "If you work..........". I'm trying to imagine one of the scouts talking to a neighbor friend at home saying; "Hey, you want to come to our troop meeting tonight? We are spending an hour and a half working on (listening to an adult) the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge". If a scout misses one of those meetings, is his life better or worse? I'm betting even the adults are dreading it. Barry

I once asked a scout if the choice of not wearing the uniform as expected was a right or wrong choice. He knew it was wrong. I agree there are circumstances when the scout doesn't have a choice to wear the uniform, but often it is just an excuse. One scout walks in from baseball practice and joins in the activities because he didn't have time to change. Another goes strait to the bathroom and changes and arrives a couple minutes later. Which sets the better example? I had the same situation with adults. You may not be evaluating the scouts attire, but you should be evaluating his choices, even with the uniform. Which leads to more communication. I guess the uniform is a small thing for a lot of adults and too weighted for others. We all have our priorities. But, I taught that the uniform has equal impact on the scouts growth as the many other tools used to force hard choices. What is important is how the adult uses the uniform as a tool. Some adults use it for an opportunity of power. Some adults use the use the uniform to give the scouts opportunities to show integrity. Barry

I believe that the scout program is separate from the adult program of supporting the scouts. That being said, the scouts have been raised to respect the adults as their guardians since they were born. For most scouts, the troop is their first experience to true independence of making decisions that effect their experience in the immediate environment, and the experience of others in the immediate environment. In fact, it is a perception that interrupts the intentions of the patrol method and is hard to elevate from the program. Scouts DO watch the adults and note hypocrisy. Hypocrisy does dim the effectiveness of adult mentoring, coaching and teaching. At the very least if lessens the adult integrity. So, if the unit wants the scouts to truly trust that the adults will give them free reign to run the youth part of the program and make their own decisions, they need some effort from the adults that are taking the program seriously. Adults can't help themselves and will have many expectations of the scouts even though they shouldn't. As I said, we can help ourselves. I know adults differ a lot on the strength of uniforming for growth in moral values. I personally believe uniforming is very powerful in the ability of giving scouts individuality, leadership practice, team pride, group acceptance, and practice of making right or wrong decisions. I also found that the uniform is a great indicator of the scout mood or temperament, especially when home life isn't going well or they are being bullied. That is the back ground; So, at the very least, the Scoutmaster needs set the example of how to dress. Most adults don't realize how much youth look at the top leader as the role model of behavior and vision. I personally believe the ASMs should dress as the scoutmaster, not the scouts or the book or whatever. The Scoutmaster sets the tone of behavior for all the troop in behavior and moral obedience. That is not a directive, but more of a natural humanistic response. Not that the adults will follow dress identical to the scoutmaster, but they will notice the tone. And the scouts will notice the SM Corp. And, it is very important for the SM to understand that the SM handbook does have uniforming guidelines. Our troop recruits parents for the BOR and most are not registered leaders. So, I have no trouble with non uniformed board members, but that is personal to our troop. Scouts understand the difference between the SM Corp and all the other adults. I don't believe in hounding scouts to dress like the SM. I do believe in teaching the PLC that the scout handbook gives each scout uniform recommendations. They are leaders and leaders the scout handbook is an important guide to how scouts should perform and behave in the troop. And I let them control, or not, how their scouts dress. This is a scout run program after all. I find that most true scout run troops are typically less uniformed that adult led troops. But, they have more mature youth leaders. Youth leaders will typically take uniform seriously, but they don't hound their scouts. Uniforming seems to be a good indicator of maturity. Older scouts typical dress very well (like the SM) most of the time. I know this is a long way of saying that the adults should have some guidelines to uniforming, and it should start with the SM. But, don't make uniform a pride thing. Uniform has a purpose and if method is used correctly, scouts and adults will wear the uniform to show their pride of being a Scout or scouter in your troop. Pride of the troop can't be force, it has to be developed over time. Barry

I don't think the thread got off track, it just went directions that we struggle with. You said it best, ""This is an axample of a young man who stands firm on his beliefs no matter how hard others try to change his mind."" I think most of us struggle with the BSA either standing to firm or not standing firm enough in the morals, values and beliefs of this culture. Scouting provides the scouts with a set parameter's in the Oath and Law to reflect a process for acting selfless toward others. But, even with those given parameters, each scout comes from a personal experience that directs morality of their own beliefs. It goes without saying that all of us aren't going to agree with everything in the decision making processes toward each other. If your post shows us anything, it's the strength and courage to make hard choices. A good lesson for all of us. Barry

I once read from a Scoutmaster back in the 1930's say: "Finding an annoyance that trumps self-righteous satisfaction is a constant challenge for the Scoutmaster". I have enough experience now to agree. Barry

My hope is that character is such a natural part of the tradition of scouting that parents just assume it's part of scouting without rationalizing how its there. They unconsciously know scouting and character are synonymous. Because they don't think about the process of developing character is why the program struggles with adults stewarding it to the youths best advantage. That's OK, we on the forum will enlighten their path. That is my hope anyway. Barry

I'm not convinced blue families are wanting the program to the degree claimed. In fact, I haven't really seen that many families that are obviously blue. The ones I know of wanting to join aren't concerned about the wokeness changes of the program because they simply don't know. The general public hasn't been watching intently to the BSA drama's as most think. The BSA has been and still is the clean strait character building youth association it was 50 years ago. That is what most new families I've talked to think they are joining. I have seen a lot of Scouting families move on. They have watched the changes and don't see the program their families experienced. Where the test is going to come is with religion in the program. God is values and values is morality and integrity. Saying one has values and morality without a consistent moral source means their values are individually made up and that forces a program of tolerating behaviors that many don't agree fit within healthy values. The basis for the program has always been agreeing to the values of the Oath and Law for just and moral decisions. When individuals start forcing their justice and morality, or lack of it, as superior for everyone, a program allowing youth to make independent decisions, and living the consequences, fades from the trust of the adults. And as I stated before, scouting is all about the adults. Everything presently is so political and all folks are tired of it. What we see on the news are the extremist, so that isn't really a measure of general thinking. Many folks feel the BSA had to change to keep up, but you don't hear anybody demanding the GSUSA include males, and they are doing fine and still selling cookies. The BSA image is traditional and firm with the general populous today. Of course those of us who have been here a while know that firm does not describe the BSA in the last 40 years. National seem to routinely shoot itself in the foot. And the membership trends show it. Their decisions seem to be driven by ignorance of the program. I'm a pragmatic person who looks at data and facts to see trends, but the future of the BSA is in a fog to me right now. My personal opinion is National needs to tread water for awhile and see where the program falls. I have been preaching for a long long time that the main program killer of the program is the top heavy over burden Cub program. Now is the time to clean up that side of the program and build a solid older scout program by fixing the younger scout program. But, National doesn't seem to know it's own program. So.... Barry Barry

I agree. Many folks here struggle with a pragmatic discussion of facts because it points to an exclusive program, at least for the adults. And as we are watching, whats going on now isn't working. Maybe the culture can't handle a values development youth program anymore. and we just have to let go. Barry

My experience is youth respond to the adults. That is why a trusting environment where scouts feel free to make their own decisions is so hard to develop and nurture. The scouting program is an adult program intended to develop youth. The BSA gives pretty clear instructions for delivering the program. But, it's not simple, which is why the adults more often than not screw it up. And, why so many adults selfishly push their own agenda. Voluntary organizations are by their nature open to manipulation when the group doesn't understand the mission or the methods toward the mission. I used to be the district representative for helping struggling units, and 9 times out of 10, the problems were a culture of misunderstanding the mission of the program, and/or adults using the program for personal gain. From my experience, it's all about the adults. Barry

All adults who unselfishly desire to further the development and growth of youth making ethical and moral decisions based from the Scout Law and Oath are welcome. Barry

Dear Friend I have worked with a lot of adults who have worked many challenging scouts in many situations. Rarely, in fact I can't recall any, adult being kicked out because their personal situation was contrary to the membership requirements. So, for those leaders, and most leaders through the times, give them praise. Rarely, and I can't recall one, are discussions about kicking out scouts due to behavior. The discussions are about adults and what they role model to the youth. This should be one place where the youth are not used to prop up an opinion righteously over other opinions. I have been with this forum for many years and have participated and observed hundreds of discussions involving the difficult situations of scouts and adults. While many of those discussions were fueled by emotion, many were also pragmatic. Sadly, some adults aren't willing to listen or even have the maturity to consider the opinions of others. They simply put them in disparaging categories and think themselves as superior in the discussion. These subjects are complicated and not one that can be put in one simple box. IF that were the case, then why is the BSA struggling more as the association becomes more, so called, inclusive? I have worked with and trained many scouting volunteers over the years and there is rarely a subject discussed that I have had some experience. In this program, we adults of different ideas and personalities still have to sit together at the same fire. Do we not? The last few years the BSA has learned how youth abuse is proof that the complexity of bringing in the right adults for working with youth is very difficult. But, It's not just about the safety of preventing harm to the scouts, it is also the safety of allowing a youth to grow from the decisions in their activities. Giving youth the room to make mistakes and developing valued behaviors to develop integrity is what scouting is all about. I assure you that finding adults who are willing to provide that kind of safe environment is challenging. Giving the scouts room to find themselves and make changes in their behavior to grow positive character requires the right adults. Many, if not most, scoutmasters will say that they spend at least 50 percent of their time working with the adults to create and hold a troop environment where scouts feel safe to grow so that they as adults will make moral and ethical decisions as adults. Many of the discussions here ignore that part of the program and want changes that will take out the part of the program that requires a safe environment for youth to make independent choices out of their program. So, many of us present the challenges that dilute the mission of making moral and ethical decision makers seriously because that is the mission. Unfortunately, many adults don't care to consider that perspective and raise their opinions as more valued. Truth is that no association is truly inclusive because the theme of the association is the attraction. At this point, the question to me is how much of character development of making moral and ethical decision makers part of the program are we going to give up so that adults can associate themselves with the BSA. Are we willing to push the program to a just a family camping hobby association? Are those who want to be builders of youth with integrity going to even be allowed to be part of the program? This are the challenging questions I have watched discussed the last few years. Barry

Exactly! I worked with several respected gay and atheist volunteers. One atheist is an Eagle. The program works well imitating real life for the scouts until adults take advantage and push the program toward their self serving dreams. BSA Membership has taken a dip every time National has tried to appear more culturally inclusive. Honestly, I'm not sure anyone understands what just and fair mean anymore because inclusiveness has watered down the servant lifestyle that scouting promotes. Barry

And, pay his camp fees. We pay our SPL's camp fees because they work hard and are exhausted by the end. Barry

Look at it from the perspective of growth from the position. Who will grow more from the positions. From my experience, 14 is the minimum age, and really 15, for scouts to have the maturity to grow from true leadership. Puberty is a good indicator. Which is why our senior leaders (including troop guides) were usually 15 and older. I understand if your troop doesn’t have enough older scouts for an older scout PLC. I was mentioning the ideal situation. You need to determine if the maturity of your scouts are ready to take on and learn from the responsibilities of their positions, but in the little bit of information you’ve given, I agree that your 15 year old should at the very least be a mentor for the 13 year old. Unless your 13 year old is unusually mature, which happens sometimes. One other suggestion to consider once you get this sorted out is an approach I’ve seen with a couple of troops that elect their ASPL instead of the SPL with the idea that they will replace the SPL in 6 months or a year. I’ve seen both. Then what you have is an experience SPL mentoring the ASPL to get ready for leading the troop in the future. But, that idea is down the road until you get the situation settled. Good luck and don’t be afraid to ask more questions. Barry

Our patrols always yelled their cheer when their patrol name was called. Then the PL would answer the question. It's fun when the patrols try to out yell each other. We did this at Wood Badge. The Patrols also yelled their patrol yell (or something clever) when they were the color guard during the opening and closing flag Ceremonies. ---"Troop Attention!, Color Guard Attention! "LEAD FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY!". Present Colors!". Something like that. It always got everyones attention at summer camp when it was our turn to be the Color Guard. And some troops would follow with their own cheer when their turn came up. Everything in Scouting can be fun. Barry

Strange, I just gave a similar example of our experience. We also had several atheist Eagle dads who gave their time without a uniform. Scouting is about teaching the values that lead to character and integrity. Character and integrity are earned by the actions given towards other people, not actions received. Fit? What is that? Strange you pick out one behavior. Unit leaders are challenged with many. Our unit asked several adults to step back because of their alcoholism. Safety as much as anything, but the scouts knew what they were doing. We had to asked several known abusers to step away. Do you not think we didn’t consider how their son and grandson would feel? One leader had mental illness and another had a foul language problem. All these parents (some women and grandparents) are respected by the community and family, but were not role models our parents wanted for their kids. I can assure you that these situations (any situation) was not taken without a great deal struggle of doing the right thing. They were handled with the utmost discretion to protect everyone from judgment as much we could. That was a different time and maybe all of the adults in those situations would be considered adult leader material today, but we all have life experiences with all kinds of behaviors and to judge who is role model worthy for other parents kids out by themselves in the woods requires a great deal of humility and courage. I’m an engineer by trade and I know of several scouts who admitted the choose the field of engineering because of my influence. I don’t recall talking much about engineering, but Behavior is very powerful and can change and influence the dreams of those around us. We ought to be choosy. Barry

What many folks don't understand about the LDS is that scouting is part of their youth program. For them, the doctrine of scouting is an official doctrine of their church. Or so I'm told. So, they had no option but to back out. We had several LDS familes in our troop. Many churches are struggling with the gay issue for the same reason. It's one thing to accept homosexuality as a sin among sins and still love and respect your neighbor, but to accept the sin as a doctrine of normalcy challenges how they can accept one part of God's doctrine of sin, but not others. In that context, it's not about respect or fairness of loving your neighbors, it's about turning away from their god. Barry

My observation and experience is that 90% of units function this way. Should that be so surprising! Excluding the Mormons, the theme of scouting is developing character though outdoor activities. The common interest are the activities, not a particular religions. This is a little strange to me. Maybe the adults don't talk about religion, but the scouts sure do. And, we had several atheist families in both the Cubs and Troops. The parents want their sons to experience life and make their own choices. Activist make is sound like Scouting is a hard core exclusive program. But, most leaders want youth to learn from the program and make their own decisions. Now, if a scout decided he was an atheist and admitted it, his path to Eagle came to an end. But, we still welcomed him in the activities because scouting is a great place to experience moral integrity, and god or God. It was, and probably is still that way for gays. I know units that had gay parents who were active as non registered volunteers. Most adult leaders I knew (hundreds) believe scouting was a place to experience the a program that practiced respect and fairness through the Oath and Law. Things only got messy when adult gays nationally wanted to be registered role models. I find in most of these discussions that the adults with a chip on their shoulder are the ones that cause the tension. With all the angst that has been spewed on this forum over the years, It was Covid and the abuse litigation that may kill the program. As for me, god is required in the program to keep the program on course at a national level. Barry

That is my point, the program would loose more membership by bringing in another smaller targeted group. The Canadian Scouts change to be more inclusive and as a result, they lost nearly 50% of their membership. The only reason they survived is they were the biggest scouting program in the world at the time. They are OK with that because being inclusive is more important to them than being developers of moral and ethical decision makers. Without a moral starting place, a compass so to speak, the program would not have a values vision to hold a program direction for the youth. It would morph into an youth entertainment program with no higher purpose and high lability. It would die of boredom. Of course I believe the program is at rock bottom now, so I'm not sure it can survive anyway. Barry

Non starter? Show me that polling data. Don’t worry, you’re safe we know there isn’t any. Personal declarations of why a National organizations will to this or do that are rarely accurate. Personal predictions on forums usually come from emotional blurps. Fact and reason is religion isn’t a basis for why families join scouting. Most families just want their kids to have fun in Cubs. The Duty to god question comes at a later age in troops and by that time, the scout has already made a decision whether to stay or leave. Religion has little do with it. It’s that simple. if the BSA wants to improve membership, they need to figure out how to keep the 9 and 10 year olds from leaving. But, that is a different discussion. Barry

Very interesting discussion. We live in a challenging time where god, or I think the Christian God, is being persecuted. Just in a 10 minute time after reading this post, I read in the news where the courts are forcing a school to rehire a teacher based on her Christian religious beliefs, and a state congress member was caught hiding bibles in the congressional private chambers. So, acknowledging God, or god, as a source for discovery might become more of a secret. I once heard that all people believe in god, some just don't like him. I'm starting think he is right. But, the challenge, as I have stated before, is how does one compare universal human values without standard point of reference or datum line to compare against. How does one know what Friendly, Courteous and Kind are in character if everyone has a different view? I heard it said that character is the basis for integrity. If everyone has a different definition of character, is that really a universal? What becomes of integrity? Seems to me, a single basis of morality is what universally ties us all together in humanity. Logically at this point in time, a belief in God, or god, is not the reason for a declining BSA membership. The BSA has a lot of hurdles to get around to maintain it's existence, but religion isn't one of them at the moment. If National starts down that path, it will be for political self interest. Look at what that did for the Canadian scouts in the 90s. Taking god out of scouting will take far more youth out of scouting than it would gain. The organization might eventually catch up in a couple generations, but why go through the pain? Barry

Good job, you are going to have a blast. The two main CM expectations for our pack are plan and run the Pack meeting, and help the Den Leaders do their job. A lot can fall under both those responsibilities, but for me running a meeting meant having fun for an hour, and helping the Den Leaders meant making sure they at least had an assistant and support from their den. I'm not a micro manager, but I can recruit and delegate with the best of them. If the Den Leaders know you have their backs, they will have your back. I have lots of methods for both of those expectations. But, my other advice to all packs is plan your next yearly agenda in July so that you and the CC have an idea of what to expect. Recruit your activities committees like Blue and Gold, Pinewood Derby, fund raising and whatever else in September so the CC can start working with them. The more a head the committee chair is, the smoother the whole pack will run. You are about to have the best time of your life. Barry

Badon Powell wrote something, I think in the 1930s, saying basically the same thing. Different words, but the intent was the same. Apparently, human nature is pretty consistent over time. But, there are the few who hold true to those traditional valves of the program and make it work. I haven't scouted in a long time, but I hang around here because it is a place to keep spreading the word. Barry