Eagledad

I'm not convinced blue families are wanting the program to the degree claimed. In fact, I haven't really seen that many families that are obviously blue. The ones I know of wanting to join aren't concerned about the wokeness changes of the program because they simply don't know. The general public hasn't been watching intently to the BSA drama's as most think. The BSA has been and still is the clean strait character building youth association it was 50 years ago. That is what most new families I've talked to think they are joining. I have seen a lot of Scouting families move on. They have watched the changes and don't see the program their families experienced. Where the test is going to come is with religion in the program. God is values and values is morality and integrity. Saying one has values and morality without a consistent moral source means their values are individually made up and that forces a program of tolerating behaviors that many don't agree fit within healthy values. The basis for the program has always been agreeing to the values of the Oath and Law for just and moral decisions. When individuals start forcing their justice and morality, or lack of it, as superior for everyone, a program allowing youth to make independent decisions, and living the consequences, fades from the trust of the adults. And as I stated before, scouting is all about the adults. Everything presently is so political and all folks are tired of it. What we see on the news are the extremist, so that isn't really a measure of general thinking. Many folks feel the BSA had to change to keep up, but you don't hear anybody demanding the GSUSA include males, and they are doing fine and still selling cookies. The BSA image is traditional and firm with the general populous today. Of course those of us who have been here a while know that firm does not describe the BSA in the last 40 years. National seem to routinely shoot itself in the foot. And the membership trends show it. Their decisions seem to be driven by ignorance of the program. I'm a pragmatic person who looks at data and facts to see trends, but the future of the BSA is in a fog to me right now. My personal opinion is National needs to tread water for awhile and see where the program falls. I have been preaching for a long long time that the main program killer of the program is the top heavy over burden Cub program. Now is the time to clean up that side of the program and build a solid older scout program by fixing the younger scout program. But, National doesn't seem to know it's own program. So.... Barry Barry

I agree. Many folks here struggle with a pragmatic discussion of facts because it points to an exclusive program, at least for the adults. And as we are watching, whats going on now isn't working. Maybe the culture can't handle a values development youth program anymore. and we just have to let go. Barry

My experience is youth respond to the adults. That is why a trusting environment where scouts feel free to make their own decisions is so hard to develop and nurture. The scouting program is an adult program intended to develop youth. The BSA gives pretty clear instructions for delivering the program. But, it's not simple, which is why the adults more often than not screw it up. And, why so many adults selfishly push their own agenda. Voluntary organizations are by their nature open to manipulation when the group doesn't understand the mission or the methods toward the mission. I used to be the district representative for helping struggling units, and 9 times out of 10, the problems were a culture of misunderstanding the mission of the program, and/or adults using the program for personal gain. From my experience, it's all about the adults. Barry

All adults who unselfishly desire to further the development and growth of youth making ethical and moral decisions based from the Scout Law and Oath are welcome. Barry

Dear Friend I have worked with a lot of adults who have worked many challenging scouts in many situations. Rarely, in fact I can't recall any, adult being kicked out because their personal situation was contrary to the membership requirements. So, for those leaders, and most leaders through the times, give them praise. Rarely, and I can't recall one, are discussions about kicking out scouts due to behavior. The discussions are about adults and what they role model to the youth. This should be one place where the youth are not used to prop up an opinion righteously over other opinions. I have been with this forum for many years and have participated and observed hundreds of discussions involving the difficult situations of scouts and adults. While many of those discussions were fueled by emotion, many were also pragmatic. Sadly, some adults aren't willing to listen or even have the maturity to consider the opinions of others. They simply put them in disparaging categories and think themselves as superior in the discussion. These subjects are complicated and not one that can be put in one simple box. IF that were the case, then why is the BSA struggling more as the association becomes more, so called, inclusive? I have worked with and trained many scouting volunteers over the years and there is rarely a subject discussed that I have had some experience. In this program, we adults of different ideas and personalities still have to sit together at the same fire. Do we not? The last few years the BSA has learned how youth abuse is proof that the complexity of bringing in the right adults for working with youth is very difficult. But, It's not just about the safety of preventing harm to the scouts, it is also the safety of allowing a youth to grow from the decisions in their activities. Giving youth the room to make mistakes and developing valued behaviors to develop integrity is what scouting is all about. I assure you that finding adults who are willing to provide that kind of safe environment is challenging. Giving the scouts room to find themselves and make changes in their behavior to grow positive character requires the right adults. Many, if not most, scoutmasters will say that they spend at least 50 percent of their time working with the adults to create and hold a troop environment where scouts feel safe to grow so that they as adults will make moral and ethical decisions as adults. Many of the discussions here ignore that part of the program and want changes that will take out the part of the program that requires a safe environment for youth to make independent choices out of their program. So, many of us present the challenges that dilute the mission of making moral and ethical decision makers seriously because that is the mission. Unfortunately, many adults don't care to consider that perspective and raise their opinions as more valued. Truth is that no association is truly inclusive because the theme of the association is the attraction. At this point, the question to me is how much of character development of making moral and ethical decision makers part of the program are we going to give up so that adults can associate themselves with the BSA. Are we willing to push the program to a just a family camping hobby association? Are those who want to be builders of youth with integrity going to even be allowed to be part of the program? This are the challenging questions I have watched discussed the last few years. Barry

Exactly! I worked with several respected gay and atheist volunteers. One atheist is an Eagle. The program works well imitating real life for the scouts until adults take advantage and push the program toward their self serving dreams. BSA Membership has taken a dip every time National has tried to appear more culturally inclusive. Honestly, I'm not sure anyone understands what just and fair mean anymore because inclusiveness has watered down the servant lifestyle that scouting promotes. Barry

And, pay his camp fees. We pay our SPL's camp fees because they work hard and are exhausted by the end. Barry

Look at it from the perspective of growth from the position. Who will grow more from the positions. From my experience, 14 is the minimum age, and really 15, for scouts to have the maturity to grow from true leadership. Puberty is a good indicator. Which is why our senior leaders (including troop guides) were usually 15 and older. I understand if your troop doesn’t have enough older scouts for an older scout PLC. I was mentioning the ideal situation. You need to determine if the maturity of your scouts are ready to take on and learn from the responsibilities of their positions, but in the little bit of information you’ve given, I agree that your 15 year old should at the very least be a mentor for the 13 year old. Unless your 13 year old is unusually mature, which happens sometimes. One other suggestion to consider once you get this sorted out is an approach I’ve seen with a couple of troops that elect their ASPL instead of the SPL with the idea that they will replace the SPL in 6 months or a year. I’ve seen both. Then what you have is an experience SPL mentoring the ASPL to get ready for leading the troop in the future. But, that idea is down the road until you get the situation settled. Good luck and don’t be afraid to ask more questions. Barry

Our patrols always yelled their cheer when their patrol name was called. Then the PL would answer the question. It's fun when the patrols try to out yell each other. We did this at Wood Badge. The Patrols also yelled their patrol yell (or something clever) when they were the color guard during the opening and closing flag Ceremonies. ---"Troop Attention!, Color Guard Attention! "LEAD FOLLOW OR GET OUT OF THE WAY!". Present Colors!". Something like that. It always got everyones attention at summer camp when it was our turn to be the Color Guard. And some troops would follow with their own cheer when their turn came up. Everything in Scouting can be fun. Barry

Strange, I just gave a similar example of our experience. We also had several atheist Eagle dads who gave their time without a uniform. Scouting is about teaching the values that lead to character and integrity. Character and integrity are earned by the actions given towards other people, not actions received. Fit? What is that? Strange you pick out one behavior. Unit leaders are challenged with many. Our unit asked several adults to step back because of their alcoholism. Safety as much as anything, but the scouts knew what they were doing. We had to asked several known abusers to step away. Do you not think we didn’t consider how their son and grandson would feel? One leader had mental illness and another had a foul language problem. All these parents (some women and grandparents) are respected by the community and family, but were not role models our parents wanted for their kids. I can assure you that these situations (any situation) was not taken without a great deal struggle of doing the right thing. They were handled with the utmost discretion to protect everyone from judgment as much we could. That was a different time and maybe all of the adults in those situations would be considered adult leader material today, but we all have life experiences with all kinds of behaviors and to judge who is role model worthy for other parents kids out by themselves in the woods requires a great deal of humility and courage. I’m an engineer by trade and I know of several scouts who admitted the choose the field of engineering because of my influence. I don’t recall talking much about engineering, but Behavior is very powerful and can change and influence the dreams of those around us. We ought to be choosy. Barry

What many folks don't understand about the LDS is that scouting is part of their youth program. For them, the doctrine of scouting is an official doctrine of their church. Or so I'm told. So, they had no option but to back out. We had several LDS familes in our troop. Many churches are struggling with the gay issue for the same reason. It's one thing to accept homosexuality as a sin among sins and still love and respect your neighbor, but to accept the sin as a doctrine of normalcy challenges how they can accept one part of God's doctrine of sin, but not others. In that context, it's not about respect or fairness of loving your neighbors, it's about turning away from their god. Barry

My observation and experience is that 90% of units function this way. Should that be so surprising! Excluding the Mormons, the theme of scouting is developing character though outdoor activities. The common interest are the activities, not a particular religions. This is a little strange to me. Maybe the adults don't talk about religion, but the scouts sure do. And, we had several atheist families in both the Cubs and Troops. The parents want their sons to experience life and make their own choices. Activist make is sound like Scouting is a hard core exclusive program. But, most leaders want youth to learn from the program and make their own decisions. Now, if a scout decided he was an atheist and admitted it, his path to Eagle came to an end. But, we still welcomed him in the activities because scouting is a great place to experience moral integrity, and god or God. It was, and probably is still that way for gays. I know units that had gay parents who were active as non registered volunteers. Most adult leaders I knew (hundreds) believe scouting was a place to experience the a program that practiced respect and fairness through the Oath and Law. Things only got messy when adult gays nationally wanted to be registered role models. I find in most of these discussions that the adults with a chip on their shoulder are the ones that cause the tension. With all the angst that has been spewed on this forum over the years, It was Covid and the abuse litigation that may kill the program. As for me, god is required in the program to keep the program on course at a national level. Barry

That is my point, the program would loose more membership by bringing in another smaller targeted group. The Canadian Scouts change to be more inclusive and as a result, they lost nearly 50% of their membership. The only reason they survived is they were the biggest scouting program in the world at the time. They are OK with that because being inclusive is more important to them than being developers of moral and ethical decision makers. Without a moral starting place, a compass so to speak, the program would not have a values vision to hold a program direction for the youth. It would morph into an youth entertainment program with no higher purpose and high lability. It would die of boredom. Of course I believe the program is at rock bottom now, so I'm not sure it can survive anyway. Barry

Non starter? Show me that polling data. Don’t worry, you’re safe we know there isn’t any. Personal declarations of why a National organizations will to this or do that are rarely accurate. Personal predictions on forums usually come from emotional blurps. Fact and reason is religion isn’t a basis for why families join scouting. Most families just want their kids to have fun in Cubs. The Duty to god question comes at a later age in troops and by that time, the scout has already made a decision whether to stay or leave. Religion has little do with it. It’s that simple. if the BSA wants to improve membership, they need to figure out how to keep the 9 and 10 year olds from leaving. But, that is a different discussion. Barry

Very interesting discussion. We live in a challenging time where god, or I think the Christian God, is being persecuted. Just in a 10 minute time after reading this post, I read in the news where the courts are forcing a school to rehire a teacher based on her Christian religious beliefs, and a state congress member was caught hiding bibles in the congressional private chambers. So, acknowledging God, or god, as a source for discovery might become more of a secret. I once heard that all people believe in god, some just don't like him. I'm starting think he is right. But, the challenge, as I have stated before, is how does one compare universal human values without standard point of reference or datum line to compare against. How does one know what Friendly, Courteous and Kind are in character if everyone has a different view? I heard it said that character is the basis for integrity. If everyone has a different definition of character, is that really a universal? What becomes of integrity? Seems to me, a single basis of morality is what universally ties us all together in humanity. Logically at this point in time, a belief in God, or god, is not the reason for a declining BSA membership. The BSA has a lot of hurdles to get around to maintain it's existence, but religion isn't one of them at the moment. If National starts down that path, it will be for political self interest. Look at what that did for the Canadian scouts in the 90s. Taking god out of scouting will take far more youth out of scouting than it would gain. The organization might eventually catch up in a couple generations, but why go through the pain? Barry

Good job, you are going to have a blast. The two main CM expectations for our pack are plan and run the Pack meeting, and help the Den Leaders do their job. A lot can fall under both those responsibilities, but for me running a meeting meant having fun for an hour, and helping the Den Leaders meant making sure they at least had an assistant and support from their den. I'm not a micro manager, but I can recruit and delegate with the best of them. If the Den Leaders know you have their backs, they will have your back. I have lots of methods for both of those expectations. But, my other advice to all packs is plan your next yearly agenda in July so that you and the CC have an idea of what to expect. Recruit your activities committees like Blue and Gold, Pinewood Derby, fund raising and whatever else in September so the CC can start working with them. The more a head the committee chair is, the smoother the whole pack will run. You are about to have the best time of your life. Barry

Badon Powell wrote something, I think in the 1930s, saying basically the same thing. Different words, but the intent was the same. Apparently, human nature is pretty consistent over time. But, there are the few who hold true to those traditional valves of the program and make it work. I haven't scouted in a long time, but I hang around here because it is a place to keep spreading the word. Barry

I have found that most scouting organizations see themselves as their own. Locally The GSUSA, Campfire Scouts and BSA are very different from each other. International is the same. That is why the “everybody else does it this way” doesn’t really fit well in discussions. Another subject where “everyone else does it this way” is uniforms. That of course doesn’t mean comparisons are off the table in discussions, it just means they should be discussed as “here is something to consider”. That keeps the discussion from going down the path passionate feelings going into attack position. Barry

Thanks Richard. One of our adults had a heart attack while bicycling on a campout. Lucky for us one of our other adults was a doctor, and there was an ambulance nearby supporting a bicycle race. After that experience, we performed CPR training every January for all adults and scouts in the troop. And all the ASMs had to maintain certification. Our district brought a someone 4 times a year to train and certify any unit adults. Barry

You read way way too much into my post. My post was pragmatic and in no way suggested my opinion or experience. Also, don’t use international scouting to imply scouting in the BSA. It’s different. Instead of trying to sway others with made up polls and guesses, it’s ok to participate in these discussions with your personal opinions. Makes the discussion more enjoyable and educational for everyone. A lot of us have A LOT of experience in these kinds of things in scouting and just might add something useful for most on the list.

NO BACON. I hate this discussion.

Yes, but through out recorded history, credit to morality is given to god. Even the Greek gods had followers. That is how cultural behavior is defined. And thank goodness. Otherwise, the definition of behavior comes from the person with the biggest stick. Look a Russia and China. China has the fastest growing underground religions in the world. Why do you think that is. And how can a youth association define itself as a character development program without a generally agreed source? Of course you think you are moral without god, but that is a lot of responsibility for 100 scouts under your wing. I suggest getting a lot of insurance. Well, again you make a lot of assumptions, but the simple answer is the family. When ever the SM makes a judgement the scout doesn't agree with, the family can educate both of them. A foundation of spiritual morality protects the scout and it has worked well so far. Ah! so it's a theory. I think that is OK because you can't be held accountable for an inaccurate personal theory probably based from emotional passion. And it really doesn't matter how religious the unit is so long as the scout and their family can hold themselves accountable to their moral beliefs. Religious or not, a values based program with a foundation of god protects the youth from emotional adult leaders who make it up as they go along. And some do anyway, but they can be held accountable. I've seen a lot of leaders asked to leave for their personal interpretation of morality and character. Barry

Actually, if you search moral definition, most link it to religion. But, to your point, if there is no source, then every SM has claim to moral definitions. Chaos. Units can teach whatever behavior they like and call it morality, and nobody could argue. The Oath and Law would have no foundation to stand on because behavior would depend on the emotional mood of the SM in that moment. The BSA points to one source, god. So, where did the 10% come from? Barry

10%, wow, how do you know that? The mission of the BSA is Developing ethical and moral decision makers. If the Declaration of Religious Principles is dropped, what is the common foundation of values for developing moral and ethical character? Barry

We drivers upped our personal liability. It didn’t cost very much back then. Barry