Eagledad

Is there more to the story, why the focus on that Scout? Oh, one of our best SPLs was the quiet scout. My younger son was very shy and considered a bit of a hero on a trek that went badly. I personally like standing in the shadows and modeled it as a SM. Barry

I've noticed protesters don't seem to mind the fumes, and I've never heard an environment activist complain on CNN. Barry

Add not to wear fixed blade knives on the belt while traveling because they have been known to puncture seats.

I always found this to be the most interesting question by the EBOR because the answer typically shows how the scout feels about his culture, and often shows me that I (the scoutmaster) didn't know him as well as I thought I knew him. As was said, there is no right or wrong answer, but usually enlightening. At least for me. Barry

I wonder if BP envisioned BORs in the process. BORs used to be done by scouts, which is a variation of the COH that you are talking about. I been promoting "boy run" BORs since I've been an adult leader just for the reason you gave "Surely this would demonstrate a truly boy-led troop". In fact, we started including one older scout on our BOR. I'm not sure where the present style of COHs were brought into the program, but they were the same in my troop during the 60s and 70s. Barry

I'm a little different, I think a BOR member should consider misquoting the Oath or Law as a red flag of the SMs program. After all they repeat it several times a month. But, this is a difficult example because I agree with fred that scouts often misquote, and completely forget, such things under stress. I do believe most experienced unit leaders can tell the difference between stress or incomplete scouting experience. I would pass this scout, and then meet with the SM. Consistent Scout performance is indicative of the program and if the BOR observes a consistent flaw, the SM is responsible. If the BOR feels the scout is personally responsible for flaws in the review, but meets all the requirements, then they can explain their concern to the scout and then sigh him off. And then meet with the SM later on. I had several such talks with BOR while I was SM. Sometimes the adults need to have a meeting of the minds for a common understanding. Barry

Yes exactly. ILST is a great starting place for inexperienced troops. But, training should only be used where participants need information to grow in performance. A troop is free to change the syllabus so that it applies to real deficiencies of performance. This was the first guideline I preached to District trainers when I was the Council Junior Leadership Training Chairman. New troops need to use standardized training syllabuses because all their scouts are starting from the same place of knowledge, experience and maturity. But, as those scouts practice the lessons of the basic courses and grow in maturity and experience, their actions become the main teacher for scouts with less experience and maturity (younger scouts). By focusing on continued growth of the older scouts, the younger scouts will learn the same skills without as much of the training. We eventually reduced training to just a few hours a year for basically "need to know" information specific to each Position of Responsibility (POS). If we found the patrols lacking in a general skill, we would create a lesson activity for that skill. And see that as a red flag of something lacking in our program. But, that kind of program requires experience and understanding of the skills scouts need to work toward growth. So, units need to start slow with actitities like ILST, but understand that growth requires change to keep up with the maturity of the scouts. A troop shouldn't need to repeat all of last years syllabus, something should be taken out, and something added for the expectation of raising the bar for maturity. Barry

There have been some good discussions of ILST lately, I'm not sure the best way to find those discussions (mods?). They are pretty good, but with a lot of content, so starting the discussion over is difficult. I'll just say (repeat in short) that I think ILST is a good way to start team development for a new program, but looses it's effectiveness quickly because the syllabus content does not mature with the troops program growth. Youth this age don't enjoy training, especially when they have seen it before. They learn best by watching their older scout role models repeating the lessons learned. If you feel ILST is needed to improve the program, then why didn't the older scouts learn it last year? A habit is developed in practice, not training. I'm not saying don't do it, use it if you can see value in it. But, don't just do it because it's there to do or something to keep scouts busy. Instead, work your program for continued growth in the troop and patrol activities. Barry

Seems lately that I'm attracted to quotes that are more specifically directed toward how scouters (Scoutmasters) use Patrol Method. "We are what we repeatedly do. Excellence, then, is not an act, but a habit." Aristotle Barry

Good list. I'm not sure how our scouts learned courtesy during trips. But, I know that generally abuse came from younger scouts. Problems disappeared with troop age maturity. Same goes for wearing the uniform during travel, older scouts had no trouble, it's always the 12 and 13 year olds in their self-identity years who complained. Barry

We went strait from summer camp to a day of white water rafting. Between changing clothes, getting wet, snacks, and one handicapped scout wetting his pants and not telling anyone until it became obvious, the vehicles didn't fair well for the 8 hour drive home. As I said, we learned. Not only did we start renting vans, but we also told the scouts that they would be responsible for the cost of cleaning the vehicles at a local car wash. That didn't make an impression until after the first year where they found themselves spending a lot of money and an hour of their time cleaning the vans before dropping them off to waiting parents a few blocks away. They were much more tidy the following years after developing habits of cleaning out trash at every stop and making sure all food and drinks were cleaned up by each scout. Funny how one hour of cleaning when you're dead beat and warn out from camp changes ones habits. Barry

Yes, we live and learn. One ASM traded for a new car after summer camp because he could not get the smell out.......Coincidentally, we started renting vans the next year. Barry

AND SOAP. Don't forget eco friendly soap. And by the way, a little can go a long way. Kind of funny, but our scouts used the bucket and plunger a lot because it was just so darn much fun. Wish they felt that way about showers. Barry

One of our first Eagles was a deaf scout. Good kid, but because he was born deaf, he was a bit spoiled by his parents and he learned how to "skirt" responsibilities. He had one bad habit of teasing other kids. Nothing mean, just seeking attention with negative attention. I remember he was brought to me for once such incident and all of a sudden he couldn't read my lips. When I called him on it, his eyes looked as if he'd seen a ghost. We didn't have much trouble after that. I told his dad about it and he had no response. But, I notice adults can be a bit proud about handicapped scouts as well. I called our District Eagle Chair the day before this same scout's scout EBOR. All I wanted to tell him was make sure each board member looks strait at the scouts so he can see your lips. But before I could get that far, the chair cut me off and lectured that all candidates are treaty fairly. He cut me off a couple times. So, ok. Sure enough when the scout gave a great answer that had nothing to do with the question, the members of the board froze for a moment because they realized they didn't know how to talk to him. In reality, his he EBOR was over at that point because all the members just fumbled around telling the scout the expectations of an Eagle. They didn't dare ask anymore questions. LOL. Handicapped scouts are a challenge today because there are so many types of behaviors considered handicaps. Even cerebral palsy has different stages that would require different skills. I don't know why, but our troop seemed to attract a lot of challenged scouts. We learned that success is very dependent on the parents. Oh the troop has to be open minded working with handicapped scouts in a patrol method program, but if the parents are helping, the effort is a lot less challenging. Barry

Virtuous actions become real virtue when chosen deliberately from motivation of internal good. I think Badon Powell said something similar, but I can't remember where. "Do a good turn daily" is a practice of the goal. Barry

I agree. First, most boys (girls?) of this age and maturity are more than ready for an advanced maturity program. I believe most Webelos Dens are just coasting their last couple months waiting to get in the troop anyway. Second, the few Dens that do wait a couple of months longer are typically doing it for the adults who want the boys to get more advancement. That advancement a year later will mean almost nothing to the scouts. For those Dens who are waiting, we asked that they send their Scouts to our troop just to get used to being a Scout (even if they hadn't committed to our troop). I would advise Pack leaders learn the standard crossover timetable for their district so they can help the troops. Late crossovers are a burden on PLCs just trying to place the new scouts in the right patrols, so they can ease the struggle of the change. Troop election cycles can challenge the PLCs just in recruiting and training Troop Guides. I've said before, the BSA looses more scouts in their first year of a troop than any other time. Packs can help a little by fitting into the troop schedules. Barry

I know we are referencing the more extreme part of the topic, but many of our scouts see something that looks like fun and add it. I was thinking about our scouts taking a craft MB and enjoy it so much, they add wood craft, leather craft, metal craft, even basket weaving. Because camps have the tools, crafts are fairly easy and a lot of fun. Many scouts added three badges to their original list. They aren't Eagle required badges, but they make a lot of memories and gifts for mom. Barry

I found it odd that they called it WoodBadge. I kind of felt like this is more of how to run a linked program than how to run a scouting program. Prerequisite would be running the present troop with getting the new recent changes. Barry

Well wait a minute, there is a lot of agreement around here. But there is also a lot of experience and experiences here too. I happen to believe that this is one of the best forums of like minded scouters because our opinions are expression of life's experiences, not illusions of our egos. We ran the ego guy off about a year ago. We aren't trying to change your mind (at least I'm not), we are just passing along information to consider. Or not. Someone once posted, "I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only only make them think"- Socrates. Oh wait! That was me. LOL Barry

I guess logical and reasoning suggest matching maturity to the requirements gives the best chance for maximum growth from the activities. But, our scouts who take camping at summer camp have a lot of fun and look forward to each day's activities. If they have that much fun at summer camp, imagine the fun of finishing the requirements with the troop. Barry

What do you have against partials? Barry

Our scouts, more often than not, came back with other MB credits that they signed up for while at camp. Can't scouts still ask to take classes at camp if it fits in their schedule and the class has an opening? Barry

I read Socrates quote, "I cannot teach anybody anything, I can only make them think", and thought it would be a good Scouters Motto. If a motto works like a compass to keep our vision and actions on course, what would your Scouters Motto be? Barry

Who knows, but boys in Boy Scouts for most parents is a natural result of the BSA's long long standing reputation of the Boy Scout program. I have yet to hear any parent say the same for girls joining the Boy Scouts. Girls joining is a proactive decision. The natural reaction is probably a generation or two away. We might learn the answers to a few of these kinds of questions by asking the members of the Canadian scouts who went through these changes 20 or so years ago. Barry

You're speaking from your experience and I respect that. I am adding my experience, which is to keep the discussion as small as required with intentions of getting all the information and developing actions and/or a plan for going forward. Then, if and when a larger audience is required (such as your experience), the leaders are proving information and plan, as opposed to inviting multiple opinions (generally emotion) to fill the void, which generally forces multi-directional suggestions and usually another meeting. Of course every situation is unique and requires different approaches, but as I said, the beginning should start with minimum emotion and maximum information. Where units are challenged in these things is their lack of experience of dealing with it. So, starting small and working their way out usually provides enough time and insight to seek and invite the right experience people who can point the unit in a direction. Then, if the unit feels all the families need information, the information provided is coming from thought out actions. Barry