Eagledad

Oh! I need to pay more attention to accents. Barry

Thanks, that puts the issue more in context. I would likely be a problem for Philmont if 90% of crews use a hammock. Barry

I'm curious of how many scouts use hammocks. Most of the hammock users in our troop were adults. Scouts tried them out for an hour, but never got motivated to use them. Barry

Well there ya go, we live in a world of contradictions. I guess that's why a scout should always be prepared. Barry

Teaching scouts how to be safe in all their activities is (or was) an expectation by the general public. Over the years as a scout leader in back county activities, I grew to fear two events the most with the responsibility of taking care of other parents sons: lightning and hypothermia. IF they are not respected, they can cause harm quickly. Our troop is a backpacking troop, so our scouts have enough experience to understand the 3s. But, I was disappointed that Philmont didn't view it's program as teaching basics. Are bears really that much of a risk while a dozen noisy scouts are setting up tents in the daylight hours. Mountain showers are daily occurrence during the summer months in the mountains. I think Philmont has the mentality that they can deal with most emergencies pretty quickly because of their vehicle access to most areas of the ranch. In their eyes, the likelihood of real harm in responding to hypothermia or a lost patrol is a lower risk than a bear attack. I can understand that, but the risk for bear encounters isn't isolated to Philmont. The risk are just as great in most of the wilderness areas in the Rockies as well as in the Norther Tier. Beary

It's all about the trees. It started back in the 80s I think by some political activism of protecting the trees from man. It wasn't about Philmont, but National reacted in about the mid 90s. Hammock users know how to safely protect trees. But, when running thousands of youth through the trails in a 3 month period, blanket policies are just easier. As for the single man tents, I don't remember that being a problem 15 years ago. We used them. I wonder if bears is part of the reason for the policy. If Philmont is really concerned about camp LNT, they could reduce the size of the crews. I've heard that National would rather troops not use single man tents for all their camp outs. Youth protection? Who knows. My reasoning for a tent-mate was sharing the weight of the tent. It wasn't too long ago that many crews slept together under the tarp. Philmont has it's own policies for it's own reasons. The first rule of making camp in the wilderness is shelter because hypothermia can happen anytime with the elements. Anyone who has spent much time in the mountains understands how quickly the rain can hit without warning. The first procedure at Philmont for making camp was hanging the Bear Bag. You wouldn't think that a big deal, but by coincidence after I mentioned shelter and hypothermia to our Philmont Ranger, we were hit with a thunderstorm that dropped 2 inches of hail, a huge drop in temperature, followed with 30 minutes of rain (perfect hypothermia situation). We had just got through setting up the tents, but had the storm hit 30 minutes earlier, it could have been more dangerous. I may have been sensitive because a few years earlier we had the exact same situation on the lakes in the Northern Tier and experienced some hypothermia. Of course the Philmont policy isn't without reason, a scout was attacked in his tent by a bear the previous year, so Philmont was on hyper-bear-alert. The only reason I bring it up is that I believe the majority of visitors to Philmont are first-time backpackers and they should learn the accepted habits of wilderness camping to take back to their troop. Shelter, water, food. Barry

Why not? Barry

That is a lot of ifs for someone stuck in the middle of a dense forest. Turn left in 500 feet isn't of much value in the Norther Tier or the Arizona desert. I imagine that Lat/Long is well understood for most Alaskans. I haven't looked, but surely their is nav app that converts to lat long like the aviation apps. I would certainly want my scouts to have clue. Barry

So, how do you explain to Search and Rescue where you are located in the deep wooded valley? "Turn left in 500 feet?". I'm a pilot, so Lat/Long is natural to me. Barry

We (me the cubmaster) set a uniform policy with the Den Leaders. And in this age of email, this policy can certainly be sent to parents for their own information if you like. But after that, I just left it up to the parents and leaders. Maybe its easier for me to suggest not letting the little things bog down the big things, because I can look back at my experience. But at the Cub level of volunteering, uniform is not worth the the frustration and stress. There will always be that 10% who don't desire to be uniform with the group. 20% at the troop level. As a CM, I can assure you bigger frustrations are coming your way. It's not that I'm not a uniform person, you will find in past forum discussions that I'm very pro uniform method at the troop level. Uniform at the troop level is a scout decision and making right or wrong choices is a values perspective to me. Uniform at the cub level is an adult decision in most cases and adults who willingly defy policies tend to boldly defend their choices. Pick your hills. Barry

It’s all relative, my brain would have felt very small without a GPS to navigate Italy last year. I would have been stuck in roundabouts the whole trip. 😳 Barry

Yes all true, and that flight may have been 1981, I’m old and those days are a bit of a blur. But the result of the strike was firing many, if not most, of the controllers. The FAA was forced to make dramatic changes to the ATC system for a couple of years until they could train enough new controllers to bring the system back to normal. Barry

Yes, but when I was flying during the controller strike in 1982, the FAA accommodated special events like college football games with special procedures to deal with the high influx traffic. I don't know where the problems occurred in this situation, but there are ways to adjust procedures if planned ahead. Barry

Lots of good opinions here and agree with them, but I think you really need to just spice up your program a little. They call it Webelso burnout, but really it's adult burnout. The meetings are as good as the adults plan them. There are million ways to do that. My Webs met at the Troop meeting the last couple months. They didn't get involved with the troop program, but they did stand with troop for Flag ceremony. We also met at the park for some outdoor stuff. We rode our bikes one day learning hand signals and proper etiquette, but mostly we just had fun riding bikes. Go for a hike at a nearby lake. Take some marshmellows and stop to build small fire. Easy to plan and only requires a couple of hours. Ask the Troop scouts to come in and teach a couple of knots and then have a knots race. Demonstrate how to safely us a lawnmower, or change the tire on a car. OR, visit troops every other meeting. Get your creative juices flowing and you will find there isn't enough time for all the fun ideas. Barry

Good post, thanks. Our troop of 100 scouts ran pretty much the same way. One ASM to assist troop guides, one for camping and logistics, and one for QM. How many adults the SM requires is dependent on how well the scouts manage their program. Some years may require more adults than others as scouts age out and new blood learn the ropes. Barry

We give all request to the PLC, but we also use project request as opportunities for leadership and planning experience. In fact, I used them to train adults on how to support scouts in a boy run troop. For example, our troop was expected to pick up trash on mile section of road. That is a fairly easy project to plan and lead. So the SPL usually finds a young scout looking for leadership opportunities. The SPL approached me and ask me to find an adult to support his scout. Once the PLC gets used to it, they run it pretty much themselves. Barry

For whatever reason the ASMs are seen as important for patrols, the program is supposed to mature to independence away from that importance. There might be a temporary need to Patrol ASMs, but the need is a red flag that program is not working as it should. The two risk are that human nature does not like to give up authority, and has a reluctance to change. Unless the SM has a plan, and strives, to move the program away from the need for patrol ASMs, there isn't much motivation to change. Barry

A lot of what you do depends on your personality. I’m a big picture person and for me pack success depended on the den leaders. So I supported the den leaders by listening to them and helping get what ever they needed. Each has their own personality and style, so there isn’t a one size fits all answer. It sounnds like a lot, and can be the first month as everyone is starting. But if you nip problems in the budd, your pack will be on cruisecontrol by November. As for pack meetings, make them an hour of pure fun. Move announcements to a news letter and never go more than a minute without giving the scouts (and their siblings) an opportunity to jump, scream, yell, cheer and laugh. The more laughs the better because parents love laughing too. If you see scouts talking to each other because the are bored, then you are doing it wrong. So change that part of your agenda. One last suggestion; have the CC find volunteers for all the pack activities like Pinewood, Blue &Gold, and so forth by the end of September and have them report their progress every month. Barry

My post was an explanation for why youth choose sports over scouts. Not an opinion of what has more value. My point, not very clear, is that youth will go where they want to go and if sports is a better choice, than likely the scout program isn't keeping their interest. Barry

Maybe all our problems are solved. https://www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/more-kids-quitting-sports-over-unaffordable-price-tag Don't you miss sandlot sports. Barry

I disagree. Sending scouts into the dark without some kind of light is setting them up for failure. Scouts can learn from experience and change anything they want, but to throw them in a room and just say go, doesn't do it. I know that is extreme, but scouting is hard enough to do with a known process, it can be very aggravating and annoying (not fun) when every step has to be made up along the way. Give the scouts a starting place to allow them give them enough time to learn how it fits in their program. A one year election would I think require at least one year, if not two, to experience if it works or not. Barry

One of the hard parts of being a Scoutmaster is saying "No". And this is why,............................ But, offer to sit with the scout to hear what he learned from the course. I have had a several parents take their son our of our troop because I would not bend to the their demands. Barry

Since all our soccer players were scouts, we tried similar ideas like this and the answer is yes, they did take charge because to not do so would be to loose. It was very much like sandlot sports. One of the players on my soccer team came from a traveling team who got to tour and play several teams in Ireland. They were beat every time. I talked to dad about that and he said the players in Ireland didn't have quite the personal skills of American players, but they were much better team players. The coaches in Ireland at that level have less personal time to coach, so the players have more freedom to make decisions. That freedom allows the players to be creative and adjust to match the competition. He said teams in America are limited by the creativity of the coach. Better teams in the US typically have better coaches. That may not be the case in Ireland. My dad said that before he was the SM of his troop during WWII, their troop would camp without the SM. They would then report to the scoutmaster the next week of their experiences and decisions and he would coach and mentor them from those experiences and decisions. Probably the perfect patrol method program. The success of our county has developed a culture with a layer of safety for our children that we simply are not willing risk. As a result, our youth require longer spans of life to reach the same level of independence and maturity than kids 80 years ago. Barry

looks like a lot of fun. I like dreamers. Barry

Because the scouting experience doesn't have the value of the sports. Our troop had a reputation as welcoming athletes, but in truth most troops really don't mind. What made us more attractive was our program. Oh yes, we were willing to let scouts arrive to Camp Saturday morning after friday's nights football or band. But, those scouts could of easily not bothered to camp that weekend at all. Program, program. program. Barry