Eagledad

I don't know the particulars because this was 20 years ago, but a camp director told me that bicycles alone doubled total camp liability insurance. Maybe all that's changed. Barry

Ah the memories. The troop of my youth wanted the scouts to experience killing, cleaning and cooking animals. First we killed a one hog as a troop and cooked it on a spit for 24 hours. Each patrol also killed and eat chickens and turkeys. The turkey is the most member-able because chopping the head off of a turkey isn't as easy as the adults assumed. They are heavy when holding them by one arm, and they can fight. After the first couple of failed attempts by the patrols, the adults took over and it went easier. Next we drop the turkeys in boiling water to make feather removal easier. Then we wrap the turkey in foil, wet cardboard, then more foil, drop then in a bit and moved fire over them. The problem with cooking in a boy scout fire pits is that scouts tend to poke their fires with sticks. I don't remember why we were so lucky, but our turkey was the only one that survived out of the eight. So, we fed the whole troop. Because of that experience, I kind of suggested of finding a different method of cooking turkey above ground, and that is how we learn of the chicken fence towers wrapped in foil. Turkeys above the ground are easier to gauge when the turkey is done, and the fire can be controlled by adding or removing charcoal. It is so easy that the patrols cook turkeys a lot. Barry

We use the tripods with the chicken fence towers as well. This patrol isn't using a bag, but the adults use the bags on their turkeys.

This is new for me. I would have to think about my response, but it would be along the the lines that developing character requires accountability of choices without the parents in the room. However, and I have asked this of parents, if they insist being present with theirs sons accountability, then they have to attend 100% of their sons activities. We had a few families leave. Barry

I have often heard good things about the Northern Star Council. Several years ago a couple of districts in that council set the gold standard for Unit Commissioners Corps. I've been told over the years to look at Northern Star Council for good examples of several projects I was on. I will be interested in hearing what they do with this re-engineering. Barry

I don't know, mine is the best one and nobody voted for it. Maybe everyone misunderstood the instructions.

I used to tell new Scoutmasters that dealing with the expectations of parents is one of the more challenging parts of the job. They scoutmaster is firm in protecting the program, but also a good sales person of how it works. You will generally find the best scoutmasters have read and studied some of the writings of Baden Powell, William Boyce Bill Hillcourt and other founding scouters to develop simple word explanations for the virtues of scouting. Do a search on Baden Powell quotes to understand what I mean. At it's simplest, scouting build confidence by doing. The new scouts are simply new at doing and just starting to build that confidence. Barry ""We must change boys from a 'what can I get' to a 'what can I give' attitude." Baden Powell

A Webelos den leader approached me to ask that we plan and run a scouts skills day for her Webelos. I asked the PLC and one scout stood up and said he would be glad to do it. Two weeks later he approached me with a smile and said, "don't worry, I can't be there, something came up. But, I am making sure it will go well." The Den leader called me two weeks later and said they had a fantastic day with our scouts. If your two best guys are any good, they can take care of it. And hopefully you have a great story to inspire young scouters in the future. Barry Whoops, I didn't see you last post. But, I'm confident a great story is coming.

You are dealing with motivation and maturity. Also, young scouts aren't always confident with talking to adults. When the scouts find a need for for advancing, they will find the will. Still, there are some things you can do to build confidence. When we test and finish the new scout on the Scout requirements, we walk him to a list on the table where the scout request a BOR. He just puts down his name and rank for the BOR, then the BOR leader will find him to set a time and day. After he completes the BOR, the BOR leader will then show the scout how to personally ask for a SM Conference, where I, with a big smile, gladly set a time and date. That usually helps a lot. Starting by putting a name on the BOR list seems to be an easy start. And watch out, when they do decide to ask, it seems to came all at once. Barry

I like how you are giving them the time they need. But do they need three saturdays? You can't know what each MB requirement requires from different scouts. And every counselor has their own style of working with the scouts. So, instead of setting limitations and expectations on the counselors, give a MB Couselor class to the counselors for teaching the BSA counselor expectations using the BSA materials. Let them determine what they need, then you can help provide the resources to them. Our troop developed a course for our MB counselors that we gave every year to insure the counselors understand their responsibilities. Other units heard about it and asked to attend. Eventually someone on district found out about it and low and behold our troop created and taught a district level once a year course. It's really not hard course to do, just use the materials that pertain to the MB counselors and explain in some detail to add clarity. About 30 minutes. Barry

Parkman, I have given my reasoning in several posts for why I believe these events are bad for troops along with suggestions for how they should be planned and managed. I can't add anymore. I'm not going to keep defending my opinion by repeating myself. My posts aren't based on emotion or from a idealistic nostalgic reaction, it is simply from what I have experienced. District sets expectations on unit performance with their programs. If they set bad expectations, they instill bad unit performance. Barry

Again, my observation is that they are generally popular for the adults, not the scouts. Now I admit that all the events I've observed are not well run and certainly not run for the convenience of the scouts. If they were an opportunity for one or two badges, well then maybe. Well, this would be a good start, but this discussion was started with National discouraging such events, not trying to improve quality. They must have some kind of data to make that suggestion. And, while I respect your suggestion here, as a district trainer, I would rather put that effort in teaching units how to do their own advancement program under the BSA guidelines. If I were involved at the district level again, I would change the MB college to District Training weekend so that adults and scouts attend their respected classes at the same time . I would include first-aid and specialized safety skills. I would not force anyone to stay any longer than the one or two classes they need. I would also ask OA and Venturing Crews to set up stands to show off or demonstrate their specialty. Scuba, Law Enforcement, Aviation and other cool themes. I would, and our district does this, have MB counselor training before this event to get them trained and prepared for large groups of scouts. In fact, that training is how we develop an annual district counselor list. As I said, district needs to set the example it wants for its units. It matters a lot. Barry

Do you think our rush to critique is just old-timer emotional whimsy? Hmm, maybe so. But our scouts are free to do what ever they want, and I would guess that our Eagles probably average 1 MB from a MB college at best. So, while the opportunities for scouts may be popular, the popularity is from the adult perspective. Scouts do not want to spend a full Saturday sitting in class like they have done all week at their school. If district would just run it like a university under the BSA advancement guidelines, I wouldn't mind. But, they run it like an middle school treating scouts like children instead of adults attending a class at a university. Plus they don't follow the BSA guidelines. District sets the vision of a quality boy run troop program for all their troops and their vision based from MB college is terrible. Great for the adults, terrible for the scouts. Barry

Ah! I understand now. When I order balaclava for dessert at Greek restaurants, they never have any because it's the wrong time of year. Barry

It used to be that unless the scouts are selling popcorn, the units needed to get permission from council. And unless the fund raiser was in some kind of conflict of interest or involved with something of an adult nature (like selling beer at the fair), council approval was almost automatic. I think your fund raising chairman just hasn't asked using the application in Jameson's post. Like you, our scouts wear the uniform no matter what council said because the chartering organization wants it. Barry

MB Colleges cause a lot more harm that most of us realize. I found while on the District Committee that 70 Percent of our Troops used only Summer Camp and MB Colleges for a major part of their advancement program. They would look for opportunities through the Council for their scouts advancement. They got so used to these outside advancement activities that they lost the knowledge of running their own unit advancement program. One scouter on district made a proposal to change the District MB college. Up to that point, scouts showed up at 8:00 am and were not allowed to leave until 4:00 pm, even if they only wanted one or two classes. Lunch was provided. The proposed changes were having scouts show up to school the night before to speak to the counselors and determine the badges they wanted. They then would learn more about the badge from the counselor and learn when the counselor was making a presentation of the badge. The scout would then fill out the Blue Card with all the counselors information, and take it to their SM, who was probably in the building. The counselors, who attended training by the district the week before, were encouraged to not do one-and-done meetings, but instead arrange to meet the scouts for any required sessions even after the weekend. The scouts were not required to check in and only had to show up for the sessions they signed up for. Lunch was not provided, however, an enterprising person could make and sell sandwiches, chips and drinks. The district committee turned the proposal down because it appeared chaotic. It wasn't the way it was done before. I agree, you are presenting a good idea, but still forcing adult choices. Our troop gave the scouts the information and let them work out. Like OA and Venturing, we let the scouts do outside activities on their own. However, we did not accept any requirements that we signed by the counselor before the scoutmaster signed the Blue Card. We still required they follow BSA MB policies. It was more work on their side, but if they wanted to do the badges, they followed our policies, which were BSA policies. Of course we have our own advancement program and part of that was presenting two MB badges a month. And the scouts could do any badge on their own, so the MB Colleges weren't needed or used much by our scouts. Personally, I wouldn't mind MB weekends if they were done in such a way as to setting an example to the units of following BSA policies. At the same time, district could encourage better training for counselors and create a list for all units to use. Barry

Well, we will just have to agree to disagree. As someone who has created and killed several district and council programs, I have a pretty good understanding of the dynamics for successes and failures. Curing the disease is far easier than creating new programs to attack a symptom. If the cause isn't fixed, not only has one program been killed for the wrong reason, the new one ends up with the same symptoms. Barry

Just because you haven't seen it work doesn't mean it isn't being done. You just haven't seen it done right. We can go into details of how it should be done, but I still think you are just renaming the committee because don't understand how the commissioners should work. AND, I don't think you are seeing the real problem of recruiting the right people for the job. Look at your statement "This eliminates looking for warm bodies or getting stuck with quirky or grievanced former unit scouters. Also, this could be a very meaningful role for the sage older scouter to volunteer in." Quirky grieved former unit scouters? Where did they come from? Recruited? Where do sage older scouters come from? Recruited? Fix the problem because you aren't changing the issue even with a new committee. Then if you want to try a new idea, at least you are starting from a working position. Barry

Hmm. I think you are working the symptoms, not the disease. The reason some districts struggle with commissioners is because they recruited people who don't have the skills for the expectations. There are plenty of capable scouters out there that would love the responsibility, but they aren't being recruited or trained. Blame that on who you want, but isn't a unit service committee just another group of people with the expectations of helping units perform better? Doesn't matter what you call them, what is important is finding the right talent for the expectations. If District can't recruit a performing Commissioner Corp, how are they going to recruit a performing service committee? Same goes with the mentor-ship program; it is a great idea that requires the right people to direct the program toward the vision. Barry

Best of the best.

Yes, likely the Webelos leader experience would have been different without my Troop experience. I wouldn't wish sixteen 9 year olds on anyone without some previous experience. After a few years as a troop leader, I had settled enough to understand that the satisfaction of the Webelos experience (any scout really) was more dependent on fun activities than awards. A good meeting is exhausted Webelos. I think the Activities Pins are good for giving leaders a theme to plan fun activities, but they can easily sway a leaders focus to the awards. My older son's Webelos den leader focused on all his scouts earning all the Activity Pins and my son's last six months of Webelos was not fun. Only one of my sixteen scouts earned all the Activity Pins. At his ECOH a few years later, one of the scouts in that den told me his Webelos experience was some of his fondest memories of scouting. He obviously wasn't in my troop. 😎 Barry

I was the den leader of 16 Webelos. I didn't want it that way, but that was how it worked out. 13 or them aged out at 18 from two different troops. 11 of them earned Eagle. So, there are some success stories. But, a large group does require a different approach and I had experience as a Troop leader, so I took the challenge. We split the group up at each meeting, so I changed the typical one hour meetings three times a month to two 90 minutes meetings a month. Along with my two ADLs, I also required two parents each lead one activity badge at each meeting. Worked very well. Barry

Neckerchiefs are easier than t-shirts! Really? I grabbed a t-shirt the other day to rake leaves, turned out to be the old troop t-shirt. Not that I don't have my old Troop neckerchief I wore as a youth, but I pull it out once every 20 years for a nostalgic moment. Neckerchiefs are OK for scouting, but t-shirts are forever. Barry

Hmm! No troop numbers or patrol patch. Might be a special shirt. Barry

A few months ago I saw a scout wearing the troop t-shirt my son designed in 1995. I asked him if that was still the troop t-shirt today. He said yes. He wasn't impressed when I told him my son designed it in 1995. I guess to him I was just an old man rambling on. The only scouting venues I ever saw scout t-shirts for sale are summer camps. Our scouts typically bought two t-shirts to last through summer camp. We also had backwoods washing machines (five gallon bucket with a plunger) to wash clothes, so shirt for each day was unnecessary. Our recommendation is use the heavier cotton material so the shirts last longer. My sons and I still have ours. We also printed the long sleeve shirts for colder outings. Make sure to use a printer that you can keep using 25 years later. Barry