Eagledad

I wish ya'll could have experienced the more traditional scouting. Not just the adults side, but the boys (youth) side. Our culture has changed a lot and part of what was taken from scouting was the camaraderie of being with a like minded group. There is a romantic sense of standing around a warm smelly smoky fire telling stories while the snow is building up on the tents. The sense of pride for not just working together as a team because that is expected in patrol method, but the sense of being part of a family. For me, the Flaming Arrows was a home away from home. Where being on the roster for any job was helping the family. KP wasn't a chore, it was serving. Being a flaming Arrow was more than just a header for a group of boys in the troop, it was an honor. The Flaming Arrow cheer, while a little corny, was always yelled loud and proud. I'm not defending the overhyped Wood Badgers who preach the wonders of the course and pull a song out now and then that has little meaning to everyone else. As an instructor for both the old and new course, I can say todays Wood Badge has kind of lost it's place in program. I am a little surprised by Proteclete's response because being English, I thought the course at Gilwell was more of the traditional syllabus. Maybe I'm wrong. I have stated many times here that I'm concerned for the future of Boy Scouting with the induction of girls because that will pull in so many more adults who don't have the youth experience. Patrol Method for most adults who were scouts as youth will have a completely different meaning than Patrol Method for adult leaders who have to read the definition in a handbook. When I think back on the Flaming Arrows, feelings run through me as I look back on memories. The strong smells of smoke and breakfast casserole as the cook tosses more eggs in the pot sitting on the fire. Seems today that adults struggle to understand how preparation for a simple meal is likely, and most, often the most intense team builder of the day. Throw in a little rain or snow and calls of a couple of crows in the distance, one can almost feel the poetry of the morning. Can the day get any BETTER? I to was a Bob White at WB, and that experience was not the Flaming Arrows. But I remember listening to one of my female Bob Whites some 10 years later as she thanked me for making her experience member of the patrol more about a scouting experience, and less about a course where adults participated. "She said, you were so relaxed, and so I became more relaxed. You told lots of jokes and stories and laughed a lot. So I listened and laughed a lot. She said, you and the others members who where scouts made me feel like family. And that is what I took to my troop. I was Bob White, and nobody would ever take that away from me. Ten years later, I now understand that I'm still a Bob White. And there is a little bit of Bob White in the scouts of my troop". Wow, I did all that simply by just doing what I always did as a Flaming Arrow. I just realized that she is also a little of a Flaming Arrow. Wood Badge was not a mountain top experience for me. My youth is experience was my mountain top experience. And in truth, I enjoyed being a WB instructor more because I was more able to help adults become better adult leaders. But, for many adults, WB is a new exposure to what they've heard is the romance of scouting. WB is just a course, the participants have to bring the romance. I know, I took the discussion off subject. Wood Badge is not the course it was 20 years ago. It is not even close to the course it was 30 years ago. And, we won't get into the honor course it was 40 and 50 years ago. But, for the sake of the future of scouting, if those of you who have the experience being a Thunderbird as a youth could bring just a little bit into your WB Bear or Beaver, Patrol so that those adults who never experienced scouts as a youth, can give just a little bit of scouting to their scouts. Sadly, scouting has changed a lot in the last 30 years, and it seems will change a lot more. Whatever was good about your experience as a youth, bring it to your experiences as an adult so that youth of the future will experience something truly scouting. Barry

Ah, the age of dealing with fear. Everybody excepting your same age tent mate is a suspected bad guy. Not very scout like I guess, but keeps everyone safe. Unless that same age tent mate has been bullying you since Cub Scouts. True situation we had to deal with. OP, what do the parents say? Barry

You have already received great suggestions, I agree with them all. I'm only going to add that if you dream of influence on the program over a larger group of scouts, this is that door opening. Yes, you're the Round table Commissioner, but your influence on overall program is only limited by your your ideas, ambitions and abilities to market and lead your ideas. In other words, you don't have to look at this as a Round Table Commissioner, look at it as a door opening to the stars. Barry

I would enjoy heart them. There was a crew of older scouts that dressed in perfect Class “A” uniforms and some thru their trek. We could here them when they were close. It’s the kind of stuff I believe OA scouts could do for elite status. Barry

The MB process is one of the first scouting processes we teach new scouts. We found they have full confidence with it by their 3rd MB. We even work out using the the process for summer camp. I expected new scouts to struggle with the process, but we found they don’t have much trouble. It’s a process like all the other processes they use in their life. Just teach it right first thing. Barry

Yes, my tent is a slightly smaller version of the Marmot: Self-standing, uses clips, two accesses into the tent and a vestibule that provides a covered space by each entry. I developed those requirements over the years of experiences. Using hiking poles is a relatively new thing today, at least to me. I'm sure they work well and save weight. But, I have much better experiences in self standing tent, or I should say that I have bad experiences with non-self-standing tents, so I'm wiling to take on that little bit of weight of poles. I just give the poles to my tent mate to carry anyway. Barry

Only on tents with pole sleeves. LOL, Yes, I forgot to mention I don’t like backpacking tents with pole sleeves. My first tent with pole sleeves taught me to stay away from them because the inside of the tent gets wet while setting up. Freestanding tents also handle strong 3 am wind and rain better. Barry

I'm a little out of touch since I haven't backpacked in a few years, so I'm not the best subject, but with question #1, are that many scouts (youth) using hiking poles? We found they (youth) just end up dragging them along more than balance their weight. #2. Yes, two man tents like the REI are common for two adults on backpacking treks. The 2 man I own and took to Philmont for two adults is about the same dimensions as the 2 man REI. I have certain requirements for backpacking tents and I liked the REI. The ONLY reason I wouldn't consider this REI is because it's not self standing. Self standing tents set up faster (in the heavy rain) and don't rely on firm ground to stay up at 3:00 am in heavy winds and rain. What I like a lot about the REI are the doors and vestibule on each side. Multiple doors allow a quick entry by both occupants at the same time instead of one occupant waiting on the other while blocking entry taking off muddy boots. The vestibule on each side provides a dry place outside the tent for each occupant to store muddy boots and wet rain gear. Its a nice tent. I have nothing against tarps, we used them when I was a scout. But I find a tent provides a little-bit of privacy from the scouts. I know, it's really not much, but after a long full day with them, every little bit of "out -of-sight" is "out-of-mind". From our experience in a backpacking troop, backpacking tents take a beating from scouts, so the slightly lower quality tent that sacrifices a little weight usually goes a little farther. Kelty level tents provides descent quality for scouts at a reasonable price. Also, while a few of our scouts purchased a single man tent for weight, many found they would rather tent in a 3 man Kelty type tent for the camaraderie. In fact, my 3 man Kelty backpacking tent became the most popular with the scouts so they could play cards at night. It was a great tent for scouts in Norther Tier where space was very limited. Adults tend to take better care of their tents, so they purchase higher end tents like REIs. Barry

LOL, and you believe it’s that easy because National runs the rest of the program as efficiently. Because units can recharger 12 Months out of the year, Numbers change daily, so when do you say now? Then you have to consider scouts who joined a troop, but never showed up to a meeting. There are a lot as a result of heavy pressure to join with no intention of being active. Those numbers don’t show up until recharger. I believe there could be as much as 20% error. That’s a guess based from my experience of tracking scouts in our district. A national rechartering date would help accuracy, but I wonder if National wants to be that accurate. Barry

This isn’t new, scouts have used family members since the program started. Where there is a way, there is a will. Discussing the relationship with the family requires a delicate approach. Barry

Hmmm. Of course cleanliness is a virtue and one of the a points of the Law, but ya'll sound as if you've never been on a Boy Scout camp out. Barry

That's an interesting idea. Success will depend on who manages the ad hoc organizing. I'm going to keep an open mind, but I tend to measure these things against the unit adult's ability to run a quality Boy Run Patrol Method program. So, we will see. Barry

I think the goals of increasing membership and funding get in the way of trusting volunteers. Our DE recruited a local successful business man for District Chairman specifically for fund raising, leaving the district committee to be directed by the District Commissioner. And the DE spent a great deal of his time time with our District Membership Team to insure we did everything possible to get the maximum membership. If their jobs weren't so reliant on numbers, they might indeed spend more time recruiting and training talented volunteers who they could trust. Barry

I think you are looking at it wrong. As you’ve said many times, if the volunteers did the tasks they are supposed to do, the units would be running quality programs. But that comes down to training and guidance from district volunteers. Districts aren’t doing their tasks correctly because Council (DE) aren’t recruiting the right talent and/or training the volunteers. DEs aren’t doing their tasks correctly because Council (DFE) isn’t training or directing them correctly. I don’t think the DEs job was designed to require more than 40 hours, but their bosses are doing it wrong. Find and Fix the problem, not the symptom. Barry

The more I volunteered at the district and council level, the more my tasks involved working a lot more with volunteers and a lot less with youth. I learned that the patience required for working with different (difficult) volunteer personalities was very strenuous. I have no ideal how pros worked with us all day long 7 days a week. Barry

Well done! We are almost like that. We do the unofficial races first (about 20 minutes max), then the official races. Reasoning is using two tracks for most of the official races keeps the event under 90 minutes. The scouts and their siblings get pretty restless after an hour, so the event looses it's fun if it goes too long. Our pack has about 130 scouts. The snack bar is always a great hit and a good fund raiser for the pack. Barry

So, you believe the conservative churches would be the ones leaving the United Methodist. That is interesting because, as you say, it's the international conservative churches that are preventing the the proposed changes. Seems like it would be the other way around. I have several friends in the conference, so I really should ask them. I just haven't wanted to bother them about it yet. Barry

Ah! the "boys and girls are equal" analogy. Looking at cause and effect is not a hang up, it's a consideration in developing a strategy. You approach it from your perspective, others will approach it from their perspective. Simplifying the situation by starting with girls and boys are equal is condescending. It's that adults respecting other adults modeling I was talking about. Ironically, I believe your perspective is more close minded than mine. I've grown old concluding that the secret of a good life is balance in everything. I this case, I agree with David Co. If we let the youth of this example crew choose, we would likely see them segregate. Or do nothing and wait for a higher authority (adults, not the other Guy) tell them what to do, which is what most crews end up doing. I believe that the free thinking behavior habits of humans are basically set by the Venturing age, so I personally think balance was lost several years before. There was a recent article about the American women's soccer team demanding equal compensation with the men's soccer team. In short, the dilemma is nobody goes to watch women's soccer, so their are very few sponsors. Now, I guess we could say the issue is sexist sponsors, or sexist sport fans or whatever trigger response throws guilt in the discussion, but the truth is probably more toward the difference between men and women. Is forcing sponsorship a balance? Of course sometimes balance requires compromise. I recently went to the action adventure movie Downton Abbey purely to make my wife happy. Men and women are different even with movies. My wife was truly thankful for giving my time to her, but I'm equally fine leaving her home so she wouldn't have to drudge through Ford versus Ferrari. Humility and love. Barry

I certainly can't disagree, but we also have to be mindful of an over reaction in the other direction because that is just as harmful. In scouting, balance isn't that boys and girls are equal in their abilities, balance is that living the Oath and Law encourages scouts to live to the best of their abilities. If scouts observe adults living the actions of oath and law toward each other, then everything else will balance out because respecting the best abilities of each other is living the oath and law. My main objection to bringing troop age girls into the troops is that mix genders will take away from what boys are supposed gain from the program. Girls by their nature are more organized and better with follow through. In the patrol method environment, the nature of girls is unbalanced and will take away the opportunities to force the boys to practice those unnatural skills. I've heard a few voices of skepticism of that reasoning, but the number one complaint from Venturing adult leaders is that the boys don't engage very well on the planning and management of the crew. Girls naturally take up the slack. Strangely, many adults use that observation to brag about girls. While I believe that money drove the BSA to bring girls into the program, I believe illusion of social justice is more on the minds of many volunteers. OK, fine. But, the unnatural process of social justice doesn't encourage balance growth. It forces growth against nature. And that comes from the will of adults. Barry

I have worked with many wonderful female leaders. The two best bosses I've worked under in my lifetime are females. One of them gay. But, I still believe the best leader for scouts before puberty are adult leaders of the same gender. I was guided by child psychologist that youth learn at least 90% of their behavior by simply observing influencing role models. A high degree of that Influence is the role models are of the same gender. I feel many young adults struggling today with their identity didn't have the opportunity to grow with influencing same gender role models. As for the influence from role models of the opposite gender, love and humility are the two greatest character traits a person can learn and the balance of influence from role models of the opposite gender teaches us those traits. I agree with qwazse about the oil change, but my 29 year old daughter called me the other night and told me (ordered me) to go change the tire on her husbands car that is sitting at the corner 7-11. When I drove up to my son in law's car, he already had the flat tire half way off. As I walked up, he said, "I have orders to sit in the car while you change the tire so I don't get crushed". Then he said, "I'm not sure how to feel about that". I didn't know how to take it either, I just learned that I was expendable in the family hierarchy, and that I now have two bosses in the family. It was a bummer night all together. Barry

It will be interesting. If I understand the situation right, it's the American sector that is splitting away, not the world Methodist. In the past, the American sector is much more liberal and less friendly toward the BSA. Around here, the moderate churches supporting the schism don't want to rock the boat anymore than they have to, so they aren't planning to change their support. However, they may loose a large part of their membership that supports scouting. I think the BSA can count on less support from National part of the Methodist. I wouldn't say the break has been in a process because it's been voted down at the Methodist Conference for over 20 years, including 2019. Since the Liberals couldn't get the unified vote they have been seeking, they just finally decided to push for a break away. I read an article about how the schisms have been effected other churches and basically once the membership stabilizes from the break, membership doesn't grow. So, it's a slow suicide. The satire news letter Babylon Bee Headlines express many of the feelings around here, "The United Methodist church to Split Over Whether or not to be Christians". Barry

I think you said it all. I'm not going to speak for others, but I have a good understanding of the roles of volunteers and professionals. I believe we have a mess because the professionals are not doing their roles correctly. I'm not saying this from "Us vs Them" reasoning, I just believe professionals are responsible for expectations of the program. And I believe councils have more control for the quality of their employees than volunteers (district) have control for the quality their volunteers. Barry

I agree in the idealistic since, but who sets the vision and who is quality control in the real world? We say everything is local, but on the other hand, a unit can only be as good as the program given to them. In most cases, the best and the worst of unit programs come from the District. I don't know the answer, but I know a unit leader just can't be given the handbook and be expected to provide fun a quality program, especially a cub program. Barry Whoops, desertrat77 made my point before I hit return.

Our ACM and I did a skit of Pinewood Derby Building Techniques Scouts Shouldn't Use. It was all in fun. I can't remember most of the techniques, but one was using a chainsaw. I revved the chainsaw behind a curtain while the ACM throw sawdust up in the air. Cub Mastering was a great outlet of my inner child. I missed those days. As for January, we typically did a fun AOL ceremony. Which saved us from having to do it at the Blue and Gold. Barry

Are you asking scouter.com to change? National earned our collective view. Still, I find most of scouter.com very friendly and inviting to everyone when the contributors show respect and a willingness to lesson while participating in the discussions. We don’t have to agree to be warm and inviting, just honest and noncondescending. The discussions tend to become less friendly when respect fades from the tone. Barry