Eagledad

It’s intentional and I fully believe it. Character isn’t how one reacts, character is how one reacts. Reacting within the virtues of the Scout law takes practice. And isn’t that what scouting is all about. BSA Mission: “The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.” My. References of reacting to moods is not specific to atheist, but to all human. It’s our nature. That is why we practice making decisions based from moral virtues. I never said believing of a god is required to have morals. My stand is morals come from God. How we learn our morality is very dependent on our role models and growth from our decisions. Not just religions, but communities, race, sex and a million other differences. The scout oath and law are actions of respect despite our differences.

I believe the issue is way above judging of hearts. It's about whether the program will stay a values program. Can the present Scout Oath survive with atheist members? Scouting youth organizations around the world admitting atheist say no. I can't remember where, but the Oath has changed in several youth scouting organizations to exclude god. Likely the BSA Oath will also have to change to appease the extremest. "I promise to do my best for Bob the SM and who ever he deems worthy". Hope Bob is in a good mood on the next campout. The Oath sets god as the first to be honored by scouts to do their best. That isn't by accident. If one does their best for god first, everything that follows is theoretically down hill. If god is pleased, shouldn't everybody? If god is taken out of the oath, then who sets the standard to do their best? Without god, I'm pretty sure the Law will become flexible. After all, the reverence thing is a hassle. Where will values come from? The BSA is respected for being a values program. If not god, then who? I believe the answer will have to be nobody so Bob isn't held totally responsible. The BSA will become a camping program. Which is fine if that's what the culture wants today. But, no more helping little old ladies across the street. Sadly, I believe when the battle comes, you can tell it's coming by the small sample of this discussion, the driver for the godless side will be the trivial Eagle. Most adults (me included) could care less if a scout is atheist. Most are good folks and we don't mind atheist experiencing a theist program to learn all sides of life so they can make an educated choice when they mature. But that darn Eagle. Just like we heard during the girl membership debate, gotta have the Honored Boy Scout Eagle. The titillating excitement of who will be the first atheist Eagle. Who knows, there might even be new atheist troops going around beating the pants off theist troops at camporees. The winds of change are hash and the BSA landscape won't be the same. It's not about judging of hearts. Of all the changes we've talked about over the years, this one is the scariest because in reality it's for all the marbles. The Oath and Law give the program noble purpose. With god, learning the virtues of the law is between the scout and his god. Without god, a scouts promise is tied to the mood of the adults that day. Barry

Hey, that is a pretty good post. Thanks. Oh, "On my honor, I will do my best. To do my duty to God and......" Barry

I’m going to agree with David, your posts support the point that without god, humans can only feel good about themselves by beating each other up. Did you purposely leave god out of the discussion because god, not religion, was the original reference? You seem to be doubling down on the man vs man of religion. Ok, man has a problem with pride, that’s given. The point that was presented is that man is fickle and a unperfect, god is perfect and unchanging. So where should a scout go to define values? Please don’t throw the religion analogy at the question again, this is about who a scout should trust more, God or yourself? And you don’t need to answer, its a thought provoking question. Barry

Ya but, hmm. You know, the adults never pushed. I’m not sure if it the ridiculousness of it, or we kind of wanted him to try. Honestly I was more worried about attracting bears than him struggling up Old Baldy. But I think it was the laughing from the Philmont Ranger that did the trick. I’m sure every one of us at that age was obsessed with something about our appearance. Barry

If god isn’t given responsibility for values, then responsibility goes to the human with the biggest stick. Human values change from moment to moment depending on their mood and emotion. God never changes, which give scouts a consistent source. Barry

At some point unbelief will push its way into taking god out of the program completely and debating values into nonexistence. Freedom of speech also means owning a stand on values and principles. I’ve always been amazed at the hypocrisy of friendly, courteous, and kind requiring one to be inclusive. Barry

We had several atheist parents in our troop. One was an Eagle Scout and only one parent was atheist in each family. When we pointed out the religious requirements for Eagle the parents said the choice was up to their son. Barry

Ignoring that I don't think the proposal would get past the Eagle Project review, I would ask the scout to tell me about the project from how he heard about it to final the completion. I guess I'm looking for a trace of a noble benevolent heart in his motivation. Barry

That is interesting. But, it raises the question of when the character growth of service crosses over into the motivation for profit. I have to think about this one. Barry

And at what point does bling (stature) recognition become a bad thing? It's easy for us adults to have an opinion after a life full of experiences that teach us the values of vanity and integrity. But the biological instinctive nature of scout age humans drives the value of image over, well over everything it seems. I remember after doing a 5 miles shakedown for Philmont, we had all the scouts unload their packs so they might eliminate a few things to reduce weight. One scout had a 48 ounce jar of hair goo. And, he wasn't yet ready to unload that anchor because image was very important for him at that time. So, at what point does bling (stature, image, cool factor) become a bad thing? That is a challenging question for scout leaders. But there hope, we don't always have to have all the answers, after two more shakedowns, the scout decided to leave the hair goo in the car at Philmont. Barry

I can tell this is an adult discussion. I relate with Barkley421 as to being a minimalist and my uniform represents that style. But, my scouts on the other hand liked adding to their uniform most of mrkstvns list. They didn't care to wear their MB sash on their shoulder, but really liked wearing it on their belt. On the other hand, they liked wearing the OA Sash on their shoulder and hated being restricted to only OA events. Our Scouts like all that pocket stuff, especially the OA. I don't know of any official BSA beads for the youth, but when we created our own Unit JLT course, they wanted to design their own beads for staffers. As for knots; again being a minimalist, I only wore the religious knot. However, I observed scouts starting conversations with adults about their knots. I was surprised to learn the many scouts actually knew what each knot represented and was intrigued with the adults scouting experience. For that reason alone, I don't mind adults wearing knots. I'm different from Barkley421 that I only liked wearing WB Beads because it was minimal visibility compared to the rest of the regalia. But, I didn't even wear the beads around the scouts because I felt like I was trying to bring attention to myself. Barry

Yes, the BSA can deny membership to atheist and the government can deny public funds to schools as a result. Barry

Good question. I believe BSA documentation states it as something like scouts developing the habit of using the Law and Oath in their future decisions. The theory is that scouts learn the virtues of the Law and Oath by their struggles resulting from past bad decisions. I know that is a bit idealistic, but if you as an adult can see a scout change a behavior or process of making a decision as a result of bad decisions, then you are watching personal growth. One very common area I saw personal growth is with new PLs working patrol members, compared to how they worked with them as an experienced PL. Patrol leading is really the first introduction to true leadership if the troop program allows it, and where the leader has to work personally with different personalities to go forward toward goals. More often than not, new patrol leaders run into their bigger conflicts at meal times. Meals are a goal that all members of the patrol want (because they are hungry), but require some team work to accomplish. That is also when tired scouts don't want to participate by cooking or cleaning or simply don't like the food being prepared. Scouts are just cranky when they are hungry. The PL is task to get those cranky hungry undisciplined animals aligned and working toward the common task. They develop their social skills of communication under stress more in those moments than any other part of scouting. But we must understand that personal growth is personal to each individual scout. I once coached a SM who was very frustrated by a SPL who couldn't do anything right. I asked him, is there anything, ANYTHING?, the SPL has improved from doing his task. The SM then gave a list of improvements. It was then the SM realized that the kid was doing OK, his expectations where just too high for that scout. And, as it turns out, that scout was really a good leader. It was the SM who had to learn how to work at indidiviual levels. I had to learn it as well. That's really important because a lot of kids aren't given much indication that they are growing at all. In fact, many kids are told they aren't worthy. I have many stories I would love to tell about shy and learning disabled boys who blossomed in our troop because we didn't hold back expectations on them like they were getting at school and home. The troop was the one place where they were allowed to like themself. A troop should be made to be a safe place to make mistakes. Experts say that our brains only learn when we make mistakes. The brain doesn't like pain, so it learns to prevent that same pain in the future. But, the instinctive nature of parents is to protect kids from mistakes. Watching our kids make mistakes is painful, so our brains are reacting as well. Troop leaders have to learn how to ignore that urge to prevent scouts making mistakes. Make you troop safe by allowing bad choices so their brains feel the pain. How do we do that you ask, well start by not reacting to mistakes with anger or harsh words. Don't take ANY scouts decisions (good or bad) personal. Let them be the owners. Accept all mistakes as opportunties for developing better character. If the bad decision requires it, act disappointed. But in most cases, act indifferent and ask how they would choose differently next time. I used bring a box of Tootsie-roll pops to each campout and set in the middle of camp. The rule was that scouts could have as many pops as they wanted provided they threw away their trash and only eat one roll at a time. If that rule was broke, the box was taken away from the whole troop. And, the adults didn't enforce the rules, the scouts did. One scout told me some months later of how that simple little box of tootsie rolls changed the way he thought about following rules, and other people following the rules. Growth. My definition of Personal Growth grew to, "any change a scout makes to better himself as a result of decisions he made as a scout". But, I had to learn to not only recognize personal growth, I also learned how to encourage practice of personal growth. Because each scout is different, we have to try a lot of different ideas to encourage growth. Not all scouts are good leaders, so how to encourage growth in a PL who is just struggling with the responsibility. This, to me, is what scouting is all about for the adults. And I enjoyed it a lot. One last thing. Many, if not most, adult leaders hear how the scouting program encourages character development, but most are at the very least skeptical. However, many parents of new scouts who just returned from summer camp told me that their son came back noticeably more mature than when they left. A weekend is not a lot of time for scouts to make enough decisions to develop and change habits. But a week seems to make a difference for noticeable growth. If the adults allow, scouting really does put scouts in an environment where they want to change toward being a different person. They don't realize it because the changes are subtle, but a couple years of subtle changes add up to person of different character. Give yourself a little time, and you will start to see the growth. You only need to build the program that the BSA has already laid out. Barry

Wow, this thread turned to a really good discussion. Of all the badges I earned as a scout, the only one I remember receiving was the First Class Badge. I even remember my parents being there. Pretty cool really. I personally don't feel the culture has lost the Honor over 1St Class, I feel that honor was lost from the top. Anyone here feel National has respect for 1st Class? But I know boys, and I know that nature drives them to prove themselves. Boys (young men) of the Troop age have and instinct to work and conquer high goals set before them so they feel good about themselves. First Class requirements are a great set of higher bars if they are honored as such. Imagine all your non scout friends knowing that you have the skills for surviving in the woods. There is a troop in our area that over the years has earned the respect as one of the best overall troops. They have had their ups and downs like all troops, but a few of my sons best friends were scouts in that troop and they had earned the reputation as some of the best scouts in the district. I knew them well enough to agree. These hand full of scouts always, no mater the weather, always wore class "A" scouts shorts and socks. Our troop combined a Philmont crew with them and my son said they dressed the same on their trek. They are proud of their troops reputation and standing out setting a high example was their way of honoring and living up to that reputation. I'm not sure they realized that their actions also set the higher bar for all the scouts in their troop. What is really amazing about those young men is that they, not the adults, set the higher bar for the whole troop. That troop had set a higher bar for the image of a boy scout that the rest of the scouting community respected and applauded. Since the start of my adult scouting experience, I felt I was fighting against National's vision for scouts. Luckily for me, I had the BSA's Vision and Mission Statements to support my personal vision and the Aim and Methods to support how I steered the program. I never felt that National supported personal growth at any age level of the program. I remember how angry I was when National added the Webelos requirement for interviewing a SM. How in the world did that one action contribute toward scout's growth. They weren't concerned about scout growth, they were concerned about membership growth. But all they had to do was look at our growing programs to see that true individual growth was what boys wanted. They just wanted to do something that made them feel good about themselves, and that is what a good scouting program does. Barry

Oh come on. Personally I think calling these things popularity contest is silly. IF only the popular scouts get selected, then how can a troop even function. If it does happen, and I agree it sometimes does, then they are doing it wrong. But don't blame the process, blame how scouts perceive honor. Your troop, or district, or council is doing it wrong. And I think qwazse hints at the problem of how true scouts of honor don't get recognized, because the culture doesn't respect the First Class Rank as an honor. If your scouts only pick popular scouts for any status of honor, start looking at your culture to find what scouts respect and why. Barry

I wish ya'll could have experienced the more traditional scouting. Not just the adults side, but the boys (youth) side. Our culture has changed a lot and part of what was taken from scouting was the camaraderie of being with a like minded group. There is a romantic sense of standing around a warm smelly smoky fire telling stories while the snow is building up on the tents. The sense of pride for not just working together as a team because that is expected in patrol method, but the sense of being part of a family. For me, the Flaming Arrows was a home away from home. Where being on the roster for any job was helping the family. KP wasn't a chore, it was serving. Being a flaming Arrow was more than just a header for a group of boys in the troop, it was an honor. The Flaming Arrow cheer, while a little corny, was always yelled loud and proud. I'm not defending the overhyped Wood Badgers who preach the wonders of the course and pull a song out now and then that has little meaning to everyone else. As an instructor for both the old and new course, I can say todays Wood Badge has kind of lost it's place in program. I am a little surprised by Proteclete's response because being English, I thought the course at Gilwell was more of the traditional syllabus. Maybe I'm wrong. I have stated many times here that I'm concerned for the future of Boy Scouting with the induction of girls because that will pull in so many more adults who don't have the youth experience. Patrol Method for most adults who were scouts as youth will have a completely different meaning than Patrol Method for adult leaders who have to read the definition in a handbook. When I think back on the Flaming Arrows, feelings run through me as I look back on memories. The strong smells of smoke and breakfast casserole as the cook tosses more eggs in the pot sitting on the fire. Seems today that adults struggle to understand how preparation for a simple meal is likely, and most, often the most intense team builder of the day. Throw in a little rain or snow and calls of a couple of crows in the distance, one can almost feel the poetry of the morning. Can the day get any BETTER? I to was a Bob White at WB, and that experience was not the Flaming Arrows. But I remember listening to one of my female Bob Whites some 10 years later as she thanked me for making her experience member of the patrol more about a scouting experience, and less about a course where adults participated. "She said, you were so relaxed, and so I became more relaxed. You told lots of jokes and stories and laughed a lot. So I listened and laughed a lot. She said, you and the others members who where scouts made me feel like family. And that is what I took to my troop. I was Bob White, and nobody would ever take that away from me. Ten years later, I now understand that I'm still a Bob White. And there is a little bit of Bob White in the scouts of my troop". Wow, I did all that simply by just doing what I always did as a Flaming Arrow. I just realized that she is also a little of a Flaming Arrow. Wood Badge was not a mountain top experience for me. My youth is experience was my mountain top experience. And in truth, I enjoyed being a WB instructor more because I was more able to help adults become better adult leaders. But, for many adults, WB is a new exposure to what they've heard is the romance of scouting. WB is just a course, the participants have to bring the romance. I know, I took the discussion off subject. Wood Badge is not the course it was 20 years ago. It is not even close to the course it was 30 years ago. And, we won't get into the honor course it was 40 and 50 years ago. But, for the sake of the future of scouting, if those of you who have the experience being a Thunderbird as a youth could bring just a little bit into your WB Bear or Beaver, Patrol so that those adults who never experienced scouts as a youth, can give just a little bit of scouting to their scouts. Sadly, scouting has changed a lot in the last 30 years, and it seems will change a lot more. Whatever was good about your experience as a youth, bring it to your experiences as an adult so that youth of the future will experience something truly scouting. Barry

Ah, the age of dealing with fear. Everybody excepting your same age tent mate is a suspected bad guy. Not very scout like I guess, but keeps everyone safe. Unless that same age tent mate has been bullying you since Cub Scouts. True situation we had to deal with. OP, what do the parents say? Barry

You have already received great suggestions, I agree with them all. I'm only going to add that if you dream of influence on the program over a larger group of scouts, this is that door opening. Yes, you're the Round table Commissioner, but your influence on overall program is only limited by your your ideas, ambitions and abilities to market and lead your ideas. In other words, you don't have to look at this as a Round Table Commissioner, look at it as a door opening to the stars. Barry

I would enjoy heart them. There was a crew of older scouts that dressed in perfect Class “A” uniforms and some thru their trek. We could here them when they were close. It’s the kind of stuff I believe OA scouts could do for elite status. Barry

The MB process is one of the first scouting processes we teach new scouts. We found they have full confidence with it by their 3rd MB. We even work out using the the process for summer camp. I expected new scouts to struggle with the process, but we found they don’t have much trouble. It’s a process like all the other processes they use in their life. Just teach it right first thing. Barry

Yes, my tent is a slightly smaller version of the Marmot: Self-standing, uses clips, two accesses into the tent and a vestibule that provides a covered space by each entry. I developed those requirements over the years of experiences. Using hiking poles is a relatively new thing today, at least to me. I'm sure they work well and save weight. But, I have much better experiences in self standing tent, or I should say that I have bad experiences with non-self-standing tents, so I'm wiling to take on that little bit of weight of poles. I just give the poles to my tent mate to carry anyway. Barry

Only on tents with pole sleeves. LOL, Yes, I forgot to mention I don’t like backpacking tents with pole sleeves. My first tent with pole sleeves taught me to stay away from them because the inside of the tent gets wet while setting up. Freestanding tents also handle strong 3 am wind and rain better. Barry

I'm a little out of touch since I haven't backpacked in a few years, so I'm not the best subject, but with question #1, are that many scouts (youth) using hiking poles? We found they (youth) just end up dragging them along more than balance their weight. #2. Yes, two man tents like the REI are common for two adults on backpacking treks. The 2 man I own and took to Philmont for two adults is about the same dimensions as the 2 man REI. I have certain requirements for backpacking tents and I liked the REI. The ONLY reason I wouldn't consider this REI is because it's not self standing. Self standing tents set up faster (in the heavy rain) and don't rely on firm ground to stay up at 3:00 am in heavy winds and rain. What I like a lot about the REI are the doors and vestibule on each side. Multiple doors allow a quick entry by both occupants at the same time instead of one occupant waiting on the other while blocking entry taking off muddy boots. The vestibule on each side provides a dry place outside the tent for each occupant to store muddy boots and wet rain gear. Its a nice tent. I have nothing against tarps, we used them when I was a scout. But I find a tent provides a little-bit of privacy from the scouts. I know, it's really not much, but after a long full day with them, every little bit of "out -of-sight" is "out-of-mind". From our experience in a backpacking troop, backpacking tents take a beating from scouts, so the slightly lower quality tent that sacrifices a little weight usually goes a little farther. Kelty level tents provides descent quality for scouts at a reasonable price. Also, while a few of our scouts purchased a single man tent for weight, many found they would rather tent in a 3 man Kelty type tent for the camaraderie. In fact, my 3 man Kelty backpacking tent became the most popular with the scouts so they could play cards at night. It was a great tent for scouts in Norther Tier where space was very limited. Adults tend to take better care of their tents, so they purchase higher end tents like REIs. Barry

LOL, and you believe it’s that easy because National runs the rest of the program as efficiently. Because units can recharger 12 Months out of the year, Numbers change daily, so when do you say now? Then you have to consider scouts who joined a troop, but never showed up to a meeting. There are a lot as a result of heavy pressure to join with no intention of being active. Those numbers don’t show up until recharger. I believe there could be as much as 20% error. That’s a guess based from my experience of tracking scouts in our district. A national rechartering date would help accuracy, but I wonder if National wants to be that accurate. Barry