Eagledad

When I look at what District could do to make a cub leaders job easier, it's not so much what district could do, but what National could do. Reduce the program to a manageable level for the "Average" volunteer. Tigers alone requires more adults than the rest of the program. The maturity of the Tiger age youth is closer to toddler than elementary youth. If National believes they can raise membership with TIger age scouts, then create a new program for 4 and 5 year olds that doesn't come under the responsibility of the Pack. Of course I'm not sure the helps with the adult burnout problem, but at least it lightens the load for pack leaders. We could also look at trimming the other end of the program with Webelos, but I believe Tigers weighs down the volunteers more than the rest of the Cub program, so give it 5 years to see where the packs are sitting. Barry

I don't think it's blasphemy, my opinion is that adding more Paid positions is unrealistic. Barry

Agree The problem with COR's is that unless the council puts a lot of effort in educating the COs of their responsibilities, the COR's aren't typical of understanding (or caring) about the Executive Board. The SE needs to develop a relationship with the COs and teach (sell) them the vision and the value of the vision for the youth. Yep, the lack of credible suggestions is the whole of the problem both at the Council and district level. In fact it's common unit problem too. This goes back to if the Council is serious about building a performing board, they have to start at the base and educate the COs. THEN, the nominating board needs to do research to find candidates with the qualifications they are looking for. Too often nominating committees wait for names to come to them from where ever. The nominating committee needs to be led by a dynamic person who knows how to seek out proactive committee members with the talent for using resources to seek and research candidates. The committee must be proactive. Yes, here is the struggle. One thing to say, go out and find these candidates, but it's another thing to find the right nominating committee to seek out the the right candidates. How are they going to get the word out? Who can they personally call, or even visit. It's very much who you know, so who does the committee know, and who do they know, and on and on. The passion of the candidates for the Executive Board is usually reflective of the nominating committee. So, the committee needs to be well respected high performers. 1. know and understand the vision. 2. Train and build a relationship with the COs and teach them the values of the vision. 3. Find the right person who believes in the vision, and knows how to build teams to lead the nominating committee. 4. Build a high qualified and productive nominating committee to search candidates that fit the vision. Barry

We've discussed this a few times, but the good district proactively recruit volunteers with the skills for their responsibility. Finding skilled volunteers requires research, interviews and a bit of salesmanship. Most districts don't recruit well because they tend to fill a position with the first unqualified warm body that says yes. There is always plenty of qualified skilled volunteers if the recruiter goes searching for them. I recruited for qualified volunteers by asking unit leaders about volunteers in their units. I asked specific questions about their abilities, backgrounds and experience. I find that most unit leaders don't mind bragging about their better volunteers. They don't even mind if those volunteers might be asked to give some time at a district position. I think they believe having someone on district committee would give their unit some advantage. But, I should have started my response by saying the primary key to getting good district volunteers is knowing exactly what you want for the scouts in your district. A vision. For example, our district was terrible at membership because they didn't have any real goals except to do Cub Recruiting night. Then we recruited a Membership Chairman that developed training for the Cub units that gave them some ideas to recruiting scouts and adult volunteers. Membership numbers jumped. Recruiting talented district members is challenging if the committee doesn't even know what they want. Barry

So, the nominating committee is responsible for the quality of the board. Who selects the nominating committee? At some point, somebody is responsible for character of the board. Barry

OK, so who recruits these people? Maybe we are looking for the wrong experts. Barry

Maybe it’s changed, but 4 digits was for Jamboree units. Barry

It's just a visit. Don't make it anymore than that. To call the SM is to suggest the scout is doing something concerning. Our scouts oftened introduced me to their visiting friends who wanted to see what our scouts were bragging about. But, those visiting friends have a long relationship with their patrol mates, adult leaders, and program, of their troop that isn't worth giving up just for a few differences in the programs. Let the scout control whatever process he may or may not have started and remember you will likely never see him again. And if you get a call from the SM, tell him you treated his scout with the respect you treat all guest. Barry

I don’t know who you are, but I think you are already in scouting. And my posts aren’t about where you found your morals, my position is if god isn’t the source of our morals, then who is?

It’s intentional and I fully believe it. Character isn’t how one reacts, character is how one reacts. Reacting within the virtues of the Scout law takes practice. And isn’t that what scouting is all about. BSA Mission: “The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law.” My. References of reacting to moods is not specific to atheist, but to all human. It’s our nature. That is why we practice making decisions based from moral virtues. I never said believing of a god is required to have morals. My stand is morals come from God. How we learn our morality is very dependent on our role models and growth from our decisions. Not just religions, but communities, race, sex and a million other differences. The scout oath and law are actions of respect despite our differences.

I believe the issue is way above judging of hearts. It's about whether the program will stay a values program. Can the present Scout Oath survive with atheist members? Scouting youth organizations around the world admitting atheist say no. I can't remember where, but the Oath has changed in several youth scouting organizations to exclude god. Likely the BSA Oath will also have to change to appease the extremest. "I promise to do my best for Bob the SM and who ever he deems worthy". Hope Bob is in a good mood on the next campout. The Oath sets god as the first to be honored by scouts to do their best. That isn't by accident. If one does their best for god first, everything that follows is theoretically down hill. If god is pleased, shouldn't everybody? If god is taken out of the oath, then who sets the standard to do their best? Without god, I'm pretty sure the Law will become flexible. After all, the reverence thing is a hassle. Where will values come from? The BSA is respected for being a values program. If not god, then who? I believe the answer will have to be nobody so Bob isn't held totally responsible. The BSA will become a camping program. Which is fine if that's what the culture wants today. But, no more helping little old ladies across the street. Sadly, I believe when the battle comes, you can tell it's coming by the small sample of this discussion, the driver for the godless side will be the trivial Eagle. Most adults (me included) could care less if a scout is atheist. Most are good folks and we don't mind atheist experiencing a theist program to learn all sides of life so they can make an educated choice when they mature. But that darn Eagle. Just like we heard during the girl membership debate, gotta have the Honored Boy Scout Eagle. The titillating excitement of who will be the first atheist Eagle. Who knows, there might even be new atheist troops going around beating the pants off theist troops at camporees. The winds of change are hash and the BSA landscape won't be the same. It's not about judging of hearts. Of all the changes we've talked about over the years, this one is the scariest because in reality it's for all the marbles. The Oath and Law give the program noble purpose. With god, learning the virtues of the law is between the scout and his god. Without god, a scouts promise is tied to the mood of the adults that day. Barry

Hey, that is a pretty good post. Thanks. Oh, "On my honor, I will do my best. To do my duty to God and......" Barry

I’m going to agree with David, your posts support the point that without god, humans can only feel good about themselves by beating each other up. Did you purposely leave god out of the discussion because god, not religion, was the original reference? You seem to be doubling down on the man vs man of religion. Ok, man has a problem with pride, that’s given. The point that was presented is that man is fickle and a unperfect, god is perfect and unchanging. So where should a scout go to define values? Please don’t throw the religion analogy at the question again, this is about who a scout should trust more, God or yourself? And you don’t need to answer, its a thought provoking question. Barry

Ya but, hmm. You know, the adults never pushed. I’m not sure if it the ridiculousness of it, or we kind of wanted him to try. Honestly I was more worried about attracting bears than him struggling up Old Baldy. But I think it was the laughing from the Philmont Ranger that did the trick. I’m sure every one of us at that age was obsessed with something about our appearance. Barry

If god isn’t given responsibility for values, then responsibility goes to the human with the biggest stick. Human values change from moment to moment depending on their mood and emotion. God never changes, which give scouts a consistent source. Barry

At some point unbelief will push its way into taking god out of the program completely and debating values into nonexistence. Freedom of speech also means owning a stand on values and principles. I’ve always been amazed at the hypocrisy of friendly, courteous, and kind requiring one to be inclusive. Barry

We had several atheist parents in our troop. One was an Eagle Scout and only one parent was atheist in each family. When we pointed out the religious requirements for Eagle the parents said the choice was up to their son. Barry

Ignoring that I don't think the proposal would get past the Eagle Project review, I would ask the scout to tell me about the project from how he heard about it to final the completion. I guess I'm looking for a trace of a noble benevolent heart in his motivation. Barry

That is interesting. But, it raises the question of when the character growth of service crosses over into the motivation for profit. I have to think about this one. Barry

And at what point does bling (stature) recognition become a bad thing? It's easy for us adults to have an opinion after a life full of experiences that teach us the values of vanity and integrity. But the biological instinctive nature of scout age humans drives the value of image over, well over everything it seems. I remember after doing a 5 miles shakedown for Philmont, we had all the scouts unload their packs so they might eliminate a few things to reduce weight. One scout had a 48 ounce jar of hair goo. And, he wasn't yet ready to unload that anchor because image was very important for him at that time. So, at what point does bling (stature, image, cool factor) become a bad thing? That is a challenging question for scout leaders. But there hope, we don't always have to have all the answers, after two more shakedowns, the scout decided to leave the hair goo in the car at Philmont. Barry

I can tell this is an adult discussion. I relate with Barkley421 as to being a minimalist and my uniform represents that style. But, my scouts on the other hand liked adding to their uniform most of mrkstvns list. They didn't care to wear their MB sash on their shoulder, but really liked wearing it on their belt. On the other hand, they liked wearing the OA Sash on their shoulder and hated being restricted to only OA events. Our Scouts like all that pocket stuff, especially the OA. I don't know of any official BSA beads for the youth, but when we created our own Unit JLT course, they wanted to design their own beads for staffers. As for knots; again being a minimalist, I only wore the religious knot. However, I observed scouts starting conversations with adults about their knots. I was surprised to learn the many scouts actually knew what each knot represented and was intrigued with the adults scouting experience. For that reason alone, I don't mind adults wearing knots. I'm different from Barkley421 that I only liked wearing WB Beads because it was minimal visibility compared to the rest of the regalia. But, I didn't even wear the beads around the scouts because I felt like I was trying to bring attention to myself. Barry

Yes, the BSA can deny membership to atheist and the government can deny public funds to schools as a result. Barry

Good question. I believe BSA documentation states it as something like scouts developing the habit of using the Law and Oath in their future decisions. The theory is that scouts learn the virtues of the Law and Oath by their struggles resulting from past bad decisions. I know that is a bit idealistic, but if you as an adult can see a scout change a behavior or process of making a decision as a result of bad decisions, then you are watching personal growth. One very common area I saw personal growth is with new PLs working patrol members, compared to how they worked with them as an experienced PL. Patrol leading is really the first introduction to true leadership if the troop program allows it, and where the leader has to work personally with different personalities to go forward toward goals. More often than not, new patrol leaders run into their bigger conflicts at meal times. Meals are a goal that all members of the patrol want (because they are hungry), but require some team work to accomplish. That is also when tired scouts don't want to participate by cooking or cleaning or simply don't like the food being prepared. Scouts are just cranky when they are hungry. The PL is task to get those cranky hungry undisciplined animals aligned and working toward the common task. They develop their social skills of communication under stress more in those moments than any other part of scouting. But we must understand that personal growth is personal to each individual scout. I once coached a SM who was very frustrated by a SPL who couldn't do anything right. I asked him, is there anything, ANYTHING?, the SPL has improved from doing his task. The SM then gave a list of improvements. It was then the SM realized that the kid was doing OK, his expectations where just too high for that scout. And, as it turns out, that scout was really a good leader. It was the SM who had to learn how to work at indidiviual levels. I had to learn it as well. That's really important because a lot of kids aren't given much indication that they are growing at all. In fact, many kids are told they aren't worthy. I have many stories I would love to tell about shy and learning disabled boys who blossomed in our troop because we didn't hold back expectations on them like they were getting at school and home. The troop was the one place where they were allowed to like themself. A troop should be made to be a safe place to make mistakes. Experts say that our brains only learn when we make mistakes. The brain doesn't like pain, so it learns to prevent that same pain in the future. But, the instinctive nature of parents is to protect kids from mistakes. Watching our kids make mistakes is painful, so our brains are reacting as well. Troop leaders have to learn how to ignore that urge to prevent scouts making mistakes. Make you troop safe by allowing bad choices so their brains feel the pain. How do we do that you ask, well start by not reacting to mistakes with anger or harsh words. Don't take ANY scouts decisions (good or bad) personal. Let them be the owners. Accept all mistakes as opportunties for developing better character. If the bad decision requires it, act disappointed. But in most cases, act indifferent and ask how they would choose differently next time. I used bring a box of Tootsie-roll pops to each campout and set in the middle of camp. The rule was that scouts could have as many pops as they wanted provided they threw away their trash and only eat one roll at a time. If that rule was broke, the box was taken away from the whole troop. And, the adults didn't enforce the rules, the scouts did. One scout told me some months later of how that simple little box of tootsie rolls changed the way he thought about following rules, and other people following the rules. Growth. My definition of Personal Growth grew to, "any change a scout makes to better himself as a result of decisions he made as a scout". But, I had to learn to not only recognize personal growth, I also learned how to encourage practice of personal growth. Because each scout is different, we have to try a lot of different ideas to encourage growth. Not all scouts are good leaders, so how to encourage growth in a PL who is just struggling with the responsibility. This, to me, is what scouting is all about for the adults. And I enjoyed it a lot. One last thing. Many, if not most, adult leaders hear how the scouting program encourages character development, but most are at the very least skeptical. However, many parents of new scouts who just returned from summer camp told me that their son came back noticeably more mature than when they left. A weekend is not a lot of time for scouts to make enough decisions to develop and change habits. But a week seems to make a difference for noticeable growth. If the adults allow, scouting really does put scouts in an environment where they want to change toward being a different person. They don't realize it because the changes are subtle, but a couple years of subtle changes add up to person of different character. Give yourself a little time, and you will start to see the growth. You only need to build the program that the BSA has already laid out. Barry

Wow, this thread turned to a really good discussion. Of all the badges I earned as a scout, the only one I remember receiving was the First Class Badge. I even remember my parents being there. Pretty cool really. I personally don't feel the culture has lost the Honor over 1St Class, I feel that honor was lost from the top. Anyone here feel National has respect for 1st Class? But I know boys, and I know that nature drives them to prove themselves. Boys (young men) of the Troop age have and instinct to work and conquer high goals set before them so they feel good about themselves. First Class requirements are a great set of higher bars if they are honored as such. Imagine all your non scout friends knowing that you have the skills for surviving in the woods. There is a troop in our area that over the years has earned the respect as one of the best overall troops. They have had their ups and downs like all troops, but a few of my sons best friends were scouts in that troop and they had earned the reputation as some of the best scouts in the district. I knew them well enough to agree. These hand full of scouts always, no mater the weather, always wore class "A" scouts shorts and socks. Our troop combined a Philmont crew with them and my son said they dressed the same on their trek. They are proud of their troops reputation and standing out setting a high example was their way of honoring and living up to that reputation. I'm not sure they realized that their actions also set the higher bar for all the scouts in their troop. What is really amazing about those young men is that they, not the adults, set the higher bar for the whole troop. That troop had set a higher bar for the image of a boy scout that the rest of the scouting community respected and applauded. Since the start of my adult scouting experience, I felt I was fighting against National's vision for scouts. Luckily for me, I had the BSA's Vision and Mission Statements to support my personal vision and the Aim and Methods to support how I steered the program. I never felt that National supported personal growth at any age level of the program. I remember how angry I was when National added the Webelos requirement for interviewing a SM. How in the world did that one action contribute toward scout's growth. They weren't concerned about scout growth, they were concerned about membership growth. But all they had to do was look at our growing programs to see that true individual growth was what boys wanted. They just wanted to do something that made them feel good about themselves, and that is what a good scouting program does. Barry

Oh come on. Personally I think calling these things popularity contest is silly. IF only the popular scouts get selected, then how can a troop even function. If it does happen, and I agree it sometimes does, then they are doing it wrong. But don't blame the process, blame how scouts perceive honor. Your troop, or district, or council is doing it wrong. And I think qwazse hints at the problem of how true scouts of honor don't get recognized, because the culture doesn't respect the First Class Rank as an honor. If your scouts only pick popular scouts for any status of honor, start looking at your culture to find what scouts respect and why. Barry