Eagledad

I tried using reason in a discussion a couple weeks ago; emotion and cultural loyalty is strong. I don’t think the boys have chance of a fair program in the BSA anymore. Honestly, I didn’t see it coming. Barry

This is a humbling well-written article. Most, if not all, of the contents of this article have been discussed on this forum many times over the years. And we are just getting started. I love this scouting stuff. Barry R

I wish that was the solution, but the problem is more of a lack of experience. And more importantly, a lack of a BSA youth Scouting experience. Even with all the training, inexperienced adults still struggle with the idea that youth managing their program activities actually develops character and integrity. Or, they believe it works, but just don't know how. So, these adults tend to fall on their training and start setting goals for scouts to advance. They build a First Class skills program where most of the activities have an objective of advancing in rank and stature. The adult nature tends to look at success by a person's stature. Advancement fits that perception perfectly. The adults drive a program of pushing advancement and rank. Advancement is one of eight methods, but it and leadership become the primary methods. What these adults are missing is the experience of managing the program and learning from the consequences of the decisions. And, The program loses a lot of fun because the adults will push what they think should be fun for scouts. One such scoutmaster called me after running his troop for 6 months asking what additional activities he could add on campouts. His scouts were getting bored with his usual program ideas, which were mostly advancement-driven. I asked him how much free time was scheduled. He asked me to define free time. I said a time when the scouts can do anything they want for their pleasure. He said that he wouldn't schedule anything like that because the scouts would just run off and get in trouble. Hmmm. That may be on the more extreme side, but it illustrates, the thinking of someone who doesn't have a youth experience. I would guess that about 80 of the troops have a First Class advancement type of program, which is a full program created around practicing scout skills. Most Troops have learned how to compensate their programs with some fishing, shooting, hiking, and so forth. But, that still leaves the older scout basically repeating the same program year after year bored out of their minds by age 14. This is why 14 is the magic age of moving on. Some quit, and some go on to Venturing Crews. The most common question I had from Scoutmasters while I was the District Membership Chairman was how to keep their older scouts. And they didn't like the answer that they needed to change their program. But, the other 20 percent had a different program where scouts ran a program based on adventure, not advancement. I don't blame these adults, they are doing the best they can with what little they know. As the BSA brings in more adults without a youth scouting experience, the more the Patrol Method will get watered down. Eventually, the scouts of these watered-down programs will become leaders for their kids and push the watered-down method. The forum has had this discussion several times over the last 25 years and the conclusion is always to keep the experienced scouters around to help the new leaders. But, then you have members in discussions like this one spouting that the old-timers they don't like change. Meanwhile, membership continues to drop and history repeats itself. But, maybe that is OK. As this discussion brought to light, for many, the BSA's Mission of developing youth who make moral and ethical decisions is a lower priority than keeping up appearances with the culture. And it has been that way for many for 40 years. Statistics prove that keeping up cultural appearances costs membership. But, maybe that sacrifice is worth it for those leaders. As for those of you who do want a more Patrol Method program, I suggest recruiting a couple of adults who were Boy Scouts as a youth. Also, get ahold of the Patrol Leaders Handbook and SPL Handbook and use them as guides to a Youth Run Patrol Method program. They were required reading for all the participants in my Scoutmaster-specific courses. Barry

I agree. And it will dumb down "Patrol Method" to the point of the method used mainly to manage large groups. The economics of the program is already intuitively pushing Adults to get more personally involved in the scouts' activities, which is more like the cub program. Scouts will have less control of the program management and make fewer decisions for the outcome of the activities. It will be fun without a purpose. This is what happened to the Canadian Scouts program about 30 years ago and the membership numbers have never recovered. They were the largest scouting program in the world before the changes. A lot of people believe if we start following European models, the program will grow. But there are two facts to consider with that theory; first, the European units haven't been growing with the population except in the UK. Second, the adults in the European units aren't as involved in the management of the units as the North American scout units. The scouts have more control, and more importantly, more responsibility for their program. Young adults just don't want to be part of a monitored after-school type of program. Fun can only be fun for so long. Without the structure of responsibility and independence, the program quickly gets boring. Which is why the majority of new Venturing Crews have a short life span. If adults have a choice on how to build their units (segregated option for starters), those who are more into the program for the character values growth can build within the BSA program structure. Ironically, these are the types of units that grow membership. But those units will be few and far between, so membership nationally won't reflect the growth of those units. And like the changes we experienced in the last 60 years, National will continually tune the program to benefit the trends of the majority. Usually, away from adventure and more toward advancement because that kind of program is easier for the adults to measure and manage. Barry

I'm respectful and nice. But, you want me to be agreeable or quiet and that is not nice. Barry

Ah, movements of shallow ideals. I miss Martin Luther King Jr. so much. The difference between us is that Scouting isn’t movement. Scouting is an organization that uses the simple ideal of real-life decisions to develop young people into ethical and moral decision-makers. Sadly, scouting is being hijacked by activision that uses the simplicity of intimidation to make decisions of equality rather than developing free minds to make personal decisions to treat people equally. But, moral and ethical decision-making (integrity and character) is the humanistic ideal of fairness and respect toward all people. One doesn’t get integrity by wearing it as a badge on their uniform any more than a person is a leader simply by being given the title. Integrity comes from forming oneself without intimidation into a person of integrity by the experiences of making right and wrong moral and ethical decisions. A person of high integrity doesn’t treat other people Equally because they are told to act accordingly. Integrity is a habit without thought. A habit developed through continued actions that expose the qualities of its virtues. From experience, I can assure you that youth coming from true single-gender youth run programs will not only choose to treat genders equally, but also people of religion, nationality, mental conditions, unusual ideas, quirks, and so on. Equality is just one of many actions of Fairness and respect. Your program of forcing youth to make specific decisions without the self-discerning action of the consequences of that decision only creates confusion and resentment. About 20 years ago when I was SM of a troop 100 scouts, I learned a few weeks later that one of our local high schools ran their annual student vote for the school’s top 7 leaders. The school of about 2500 students in grades 9 through 12 wrote in the students who they felt were the best leaders. Six of the seven voted were scouts in my troop. The seventh was a girl. The blank ballots didn’t ask for a specific gender race or any other specific quality, it was blank. It was an open vote where 2500 young adults male and female of different ages, backgrounds, genders, races, and ideas voted for 6 scouts as the best leaders. I’m pretty sure the students didn’t know they were scouts. It’s no coincidence. True decisions of fairness and respect, what I call integrity, come from individuals who shape themselves to believe that the traits of integrity are the kind of character that is best for humanity. They act friendly, courteous, and kind to everyone because they shaped themselves into that character. They likely didn’t even know they made the decision to change. But, the brain develops paths of least resistance. The trials and struggles of bad decisions cause pain, which forces the brain to change away from the causes of those bad choices. The brain literally is rewiring the neurological paths of the brain to stay away from those pains. Kind of like learning to not burn your fingers touching a hot pot. You can’t just tell (force) someone to treat the other gender equally and expect it to become a habit. They have to accept that that character action of fairness and respect is the only right or noble action. And that kind of character trait doesn’t fixate on just gender, but all types of people. Scouts from that kind of program believe it is the right behavior because they have experienced the feelings from right and wrong consequences of practicing that behavior. That choice to believe that fairness and respect can’t be forced on them by some other person who just says so. Change comes from discerning their personal experience. A youth-run program where authority, and intimidation, behavioral confusion (mixed genders) are absent from the scouting activities is the perfect environment for that kind of self-induced growth. Interesting to me that you believe that males and females are the same. Oh, I’m sure you believe there are a few things different physically. You are an educated person after all. But, you believe that genders are mentally close enough that youth only need an educated self-righteous person who holds power over them to change their actions of behavior. But, I know from experience that scouts from your idealistic troop will leave no different than when they came in. Adults who are unwilling to accept a single-gender program for maximum growth aren't typically interested in a program that gives youth the freedom to make bad decisions. Your arrogance for mediocrity by tearing down traditional institutions to force shallow imaginary ideals on social society is culturally destructive because it can’t imagine the consequences of forced social behavior. Where are the feminist protests for fairness when physical males are competing in daily norms as females? Last year, a female student in my kids high school was sent to the hospital by a trans male who attacked her in the Women's bathroom. That could have been my daughter a few years before. The school has since changed its bathroom gender policy, but it took an attack by a predator to force the change. The shallow vision of forcing the culture to treat the female gender equally has collapsed to a culture where extremists now feel safe to politically force their dangerous destructive radical agenda on the weak female gender, which, ironically, has set back feminine equality several decades. No surprise, if the feminists really wanted change without the dangerous consequences, they should have taken on the ethics of the Scout Law and Oath of fairness and respect for everyone. Not just females. Now that would have been noble. Real feminists are fighting to gain that ground of equality and fairness back into society, but they fight an uphill battle with today's facade of progressivism. Scouting is the one place where they can get that ground back, but you want to take that away as well. I expect we will never agree. But, at least in this forum, maybe respectfully agreeing to disagree for an intellectually enjoyable discussion. instead of forcing one-sided thoughts and ideas with intimidation on those who disagree. Have a great week. Barry

Several of us have been members of this forum for many years and have watched thousands of Scouters pass through. Most of us who have hung around for that many years just have a passion to make the lives of new scout leaders easier with perspectives based from our experiences of success, and often failures. We have wisdom that comes from the blood sweat and tears of experience. Once in a while, a scouter comes along with their own strong personal ideals of how things should be and wants to impress on those of us with experience their perspective of better way. Ideas and perspectives are welcome because a respectful balance of dialog is enjoyable if nothing else. After all, we all have the same passion for scouting. However, many times when those of us with wisdom present a different experienced perspective that doesn't fit with the idealist perspective, the idealist counter back with hostility to intimidate the list and experienced scouts to accept their perspective. There is a clinical personality disorder that appears common with these idealists who use hostility and intimidation to impress and defend their idealistic visions. Ironically, though, the idealists eventually fade from the list as hypocrisy often exposes that their continued hostile drive to change minds with reason is driven by ego. Kind of like demanding their perspective of ethical behavior with unethical intimidation. Most of the time these members who use hostile tactics of persuasion find themselves frustrated by the stubbornness of the experienced members. Their personality disorder simply doesn't accept the idea of agreeing to disagree. It’s not that experienced wisdom isn’t humble and can’t be changed because wisdom actually grows in the fertile ground of humility. But, changing an experienced mind requires evidence of reality. If the idealist perspective is so great, then why would intimidation be necessary? However, we are all here to grow, so maybe a perspective of another Scouting program could reinforce the movement norm perspective of segregation in scouting. May I respectfully suggest discussions in the Girls Scouts forum? Of course, you are always welcome here, but anyone throwing self-imagined unscoutlike illusions on forum members is not welcome. Have a great weekend. Barry

Hi George. I haven't read the thread thoroughly, so you will probably want to ask questions after my post. After looking back, it was the scouts who drove the program toward a backpacking troop. When we took over the broken program, we adults had dreams of being the best-looking troop in the district. Based on the three of us adults youth experience who took over the program, the best looking included a Camp[/Patrol Box and a propane tank with a tree where the stove and lantern. However, long story short, the scouts hated all that stuff. We are a boy run troop, so the boys changed us to a backpacking troop and never looked back. Like I said, long story short. Really, a backpacking troop is just a troop that uses minimal equipment. Each patrol had a backpacking duel burner stove, tarp, a plastic tub for food, and assorted accessories that I don't remember. The equipment the patrols was also used for troop campouts is used for high-adventure back county trips. The key is getting good equipment that will put up with the monthly abuse of being left outside in the elements. Our stove of choice was the Peak1 Xpedition duel burner stove. I don't know if Peak1 still sells it, but while a little heavy, it was hardy and reliable. One patrol one morning found their stove underwater in a puddle from the previous night's rain, They let the stove dry out and it worked like new. I can't think of any disadvantages to going to a minimal equipment program. The advantages are that the patrols are more independent. The quartermaster could keep most of the equipment at his house if they choose. We encourage each patrol to arrange their own transportation to campouts including their gear instead of using the troop trailer. They could use the trailer if needed, but they had to arrange it with the Troop Quartermaster. The intention was for each patrol to independently plan travel arrangements for each outing. That was difficult with patrol boxes and propane trees. Now a patrol was able to takeoff on their anytime they wanted. The patrol got used to cooking on the ground. Several of the scouts in all the patrols started purchasing their own personal backpacking tents. The troop had plenty of tents, but as I said, the independent mentality started driving some of the decisions. And owning some of their own gear was fun. I thought the switch from an elite car camping program to a minimal equipment program would be slow and painful, but I was wrong. It was almost instant. No complaints, no spool-up time really. Young boys adapt quickly. The adults kept their patrol box. We hate change. So we didn't. I believe minimal equipment also helps in making the scouts better backwoodsmen. I remember on one High Adventure backpacking trek our guide was amazed that we broke camp in 15 minutes. He said it usually takes crews 1-hour minimum. I told him they do this every month. They are used to cooking on the ground, using mostly gear from the backpacks (sort of) and packing up. My focus is on character growth and changing to a backpacking program helped that goal. Now let me add, that while the patrols took the basic patrol equipment, the troop trailer still carried shovels, axes, and Dutch ovens if the patrol needed them. But, they didn't use them as much as you would think. They were truly turning into a minimal backpacking patrol. While the troop only did a couple of short backpacking trips a year, we average about 3 to 4 high adventure backpacking and canoeing trips a year. So scouts that wanted true backwoods adventure had plenty of opportunity. And as I said, the crews used the patrol equipment for the treks, so there wasn't much of an experience change in that part. Really, a trek is just an intense physical patrol method experience. Just like summer camp, the scouts come back different, more mature. We had about 100 scouts at the time. Barry

I always did a SM Minute, mostly because it was the only time I usually spoke in front of the group. Doing a SM Minute that would hold their attention took some time to develop. I learned that 2 minutes is the extreme limit most scouts can hold their attention. So, I would choose stories or subjects that I could make a point in two minutes. And I learned that boys will listen to anything that involves humor or some type of adventure. They like stories of real-life heroes. I used to wonder if a scout was affected to actually change some part of themself from a SM minute. Not too many years ago, I ran into one of my past scouts at Walmart. He had two kids in school by this time. We talked about a lot of things, but he made sure to tell me that one of my SM Minutes inspired him to always put other people first in everything he did. He said it changed his life. I remember thinking Wow, that must have come from someone higher than me because I wasn't that good. So yes, if the SM Minute can hold their attention for two minutes, I'm told they can make a difference. Barry

Well, yes and no. If I knew of a particular skill or behavior that really wasn't up to a minimally acceptable level, I would ask the scout if after our discussion they felt ready for the BOR. I didn't even wait for the answer, I signed their book and let them make the decision of how they would proceed. The book was signed, so they could do whatever they wanted. They knew I would accept whatever decision without a show of disappointment. But they also knew I wouldn't have said anything if there wasn't a reason. Integrity doesn't take root unless a person chooses to change. Barry

There is a saying, "Experience trumps debate". The Bible says it is folly to rebuke (debate) a prideful person. I am not saying you are prideful, but the discussion appeared civil to me. Of course, units really have a choice of just how mixed-gendered they want to be. Or not at all. So, there are no risks in the discussion. Have a great scouting weekend. Barry

No, I won't. I'm confident that I didn't say anything where one gender is lesser than the other because that is not in my heart. You will find that I'm very much a proponent of growing by practicing the Oath and Law. That being said, each gender is born with different instinctive behaviors specific to their gender that aid them in maturing mentally and physically to adulthood. It's not just humans, All animals have these instincts. Once we understand these instinctive desires, we learn how to use them to their best advantage. I know from life experiences and education that mixing genders does not provide the best environment for the BSA Mission of developing moral and ethical decision-makers using the Scout Oath and Law. At least up to puberty. After puberty, the instincts are more beneficial for behavior growth in mixed-gender environments. I also don't believe that most scouts gain, in the Troop patrol method experience, some growth simply by being exposed to the other gender. The Oath and Law are values that demand respect of everyone. And not just in the scouting area. But, the scouting arena is one of the few safe places where youth can make wrong decisions without being judged disparagingly for it. Simply, the more wrong decisions a youth makes during scouting activities, the more they grow in wisdom from the experience, IF the adults encourage that kind of atmosphere. I like to say that the Troop is the youth-size real life. I come to this forum to pass along lessons I learned to encourage that kind of atmosphere. Now, I never thought I would have to speak for qwazse, but he is one of the most experienced Scouters you will ever meet and his wisdom on any scouting subject speaks loudly. He is also one of the most profound speakers for girls in scouting on this forum. In fact, it is one of the very few areas that we disagree. He has a daughter who was a very active Scout in the BSA long before girls were brought in the Packs and Troops. For some reason, she doesn't care for boys from Oklahoma, but that is another story. There are a few Scouters on this forum that when they say something, you just have to take it as fact because they have been there and done that. Qwazse is one of them. I think you will enjoy this forum for the vast knowledge you can gain, and also the vast knowledge you can provide to those looking (desperate) to improve their program. Many of us have A LOT of experience in all parts of scouting from Cub Scouts to Council positions. Now maybe we don't always agree, but we have a lot of respect for each other's advice and opinions because the opinions and advice come from humble wisdom gained from years of experience. Sounds like you fit there as well. Barry

Well done! You certainly have the right to brag. However, your program is rare. Typically only one or two packs and troops in a district are that successful. Most Scout Leaders enjoy volunteering. But only 5% are passionate enough to build a top tier program. Most of who you see here on this Forum are in the 5%. Oh, some of them will even announce they are done with scouting are leaving the forum. But they still hang around bringing experience to our campfire. We couldn't get rid of Fred even if we wanted to. Which we don't. Man he's good. Barry

All well said DuctTape. From our experience of letting scouts do sign-off. I think you can do all the ranks up to first class. Honestly, it's not a hard process for the scouts. But, we limited it to first-class scouts to ensure they, theoretically, knew the skills and had the maturity to take it seriously. The Scoutmaster will be the quality controller because they look at the Scout's book during the SM Conference. We held a class every six months after the elections to train the new First-Class scouts on the proper procedure for testing (verifying the skill) and signing off. They take it as an honor. I remember a friend of one of our scouts switched from another troop to ours because he was so impressed with the scouts doing the sign-offs. Very few of our scouts even knew that our troop was rare with scouts doing it. And I agree with multiple Scoutmaster conferences. I believe the SM should know everything about the scout when he does the rank advancement conference just from his many discussions with the scout. And, the chat doesn't have to be official, I know of one scout who was shocked when I asked for his book to sign it off. He thought it was just another one of our how's-it-going chats. Barry

Our Scouts signed off everything up through first class except for the adult required signatures. The only issue that ever popped up was the scouts for some reason didn't put dates. That caused some issues at first until we retrained them. And we did invite senior scouts in the BORs. I do miss the old days. Barry

This has nothing to do with the intrinsic value of either gender. It's about providing a program that gives each the best opportunity for growth. We could just call the genders A & B, so the biases don't cloud the discussion. Barry

I learned over the years with Cub Scouts, that the scouts usually do what the parents guide them to do. Now that can mean the scout wants out and the parent agrees. But, I did pretty extensive research with the Webelos and I'm convinced that adult burnout contributes to at least 70% of the Webelos non-crossovers. That is conservative. I even started a district program called Longbow that encouraged troops to help the Webelos den leaders provide a fun program. I killed the program because the target group of burned-out leaders wouldn't attend any of the activities to communicate with the troop leaders. The program was a great success for active Webelos leaders looking for more adventure. But, that wasn't the purpose of the program and I didn't want to add another district program to maintain if it wasn't productive. As for the Troop scouts, the BSA looses more scouts from the first-year scout group than any other scouting age group. I found the problem is that the sudden jump from an adult association (including parents, teachers, cub leaders, and so on) to relying on scout-age leaders is more traumatic than most people realize. At first, the 10 year olds are excited that the scouts run the show, but once they realize that their safety of surviving in the cold dark woods is dependent on the scouts, and not the adults who have protected them all their life, their perspective changes. I also learned that if a scout hasn't quit by the end of their first summer (summer camp), that scout will likely hang around for several years. This isn't a new issue with the BSA, I found this huge first-year scout dropouts as far back as the 60s, which was as far back as I could find records. One idea for keeping first-year scouts is having an ASM who works as a team with the patrol leaders as a kind of PL assistant. A rarely seen assistant. The new scout and parents are instructed to call the ASM when they are unsure of what is going on. The ASM will gently guide them back to the patrol leader to help them get their information. The goal is to show the scout and family that the PL knows what they are doing and everything will work out fine. The trick is for the ASM to help the scout and family communicate with the PL to get them used to trusting the PL. It takes a little practice for the ASM and PL to work as a team, but the ASM is usually completely out of the picture within 3 or 4 months, just in time for summer camp. Barry

I have 40 years of working with youth, some training, and a couple of mentors who are professors in child psychology and life in general as a father and husband. I've experienced enough to know. Well that's a nice generality. I don't even know how to respond to such a generalization, but it is a bit condescending honestly. Just what do each gender offer that the other will learn that isn't in the Scout Oath or Law? Before you go on with your observations, the actions and reactions of youth are generally instinctive. Someone said boys like to hang around boys. Well yes, and if you watch girls, they aren't running around trying to find private space. Until puberty, hanging groups is a primitive natural defensive response of safety from predators. While that response isn't required in the modern day, it is still there, and understanding it helps in how to work with the scouts. Mean girls? More generalization of not understanding human instinct. As girls get closer to puberty, they become INSTINCTIVELY more competitive and aggressive in a passive-aggressive sort of way. I had many discussions with my daughter at this age. I can assure you that I have vast experience in that whole statement and can say, your conclusion is not normal reality. And, you certainly can't use victims, or observers, of sexual assaults and abuse to generalize what a person before or after puberty will gain from the experience in the normal world. Even divorce changes how a youth approaches their perspective of relationships. You can't pick extreme examples of humanism experiences to build ONE program for 50 to 100 youth. Let's stick to scouting to put some boundaries on our opinions. Wow, hmm. Shesh. Gender separation doesn't create integrity or character. Practicing the values of integrity and character develops integrity and character. I can't find anything in the Oath and Law that has anything to do with gender. OK, I even looked up intrinsic human values and still didn't quite understand the question in reference to this discussion. But, I'm wondering if you view this discussion as males vs females. I know my part hasn't approached it that way. But, If males are different than females physically, is it so far out there to believe they instinctively and intellectually are different as well? Barry

Yes. Each gender grows and matures differently and mixing the genders dilutes the strengths of the program for developing character and integrity. Barry

Boys and girls are different. That includes developing behavior maturity, or character in the specific case of scouting. Girls and boys have different instinctive behaviors that add to developing maturity in moral and ethical decision-making. So, mixing genders can, and does, interfere with the best potential of developing mature decision makers of integrity. For the best development of character and integrity, some folks would rather use the environment of single gender units, at least up to puberty. Barry

Just curious, is there room in your program for units that want to be single-gender? Is it optional? Barry

Here is a timely article. Seem a few Native Americans like their heritage. https://www.foxnews.com/lifestyle/pro-native-american-activists-fight-save-indigenous-traditions-nationwide-war-wokeness Barry

Sadly, true. It's political in it's nature. So it's emotional. Not logical. Barry

The Tiger age Daisies scouts in the GSA are a separate program from the older Brownies. That makes managing the groups much easier with age appropriate activities and materials. The BSA doesn't have to quit recruiting First Graders, just develop a separate program. The could even add pre-school age youth. Trying to plan a Pack Meeting that is fun for both toddlers and near preteen scouts is very challenging. Barry

I here what you are saying, I also always had balanced growth of both youth and adult membership. My nature is problem solving areas where performance is lacking. Whether in my job, home, even scouts, I like to evaluate and search to improve performance. And I have done a lot, A LOT, performance evaluation over the years of why the BSA is loosing membership. And it comes down to National changing policies for the purpose of increasing membership. The changes made in the 70's basically shifted adventure part of the program to more focus on advancement. When you look at the policy changes the since the 70s, many are small, but clear shifts from adventure toward advancement, with the bigger purpose of increasing leadership. I can go on and on of how changes perpetuated membership decline. But, I will mention just one for now what I believe is near the top of the changes that pushed the membership decline; adding Tigers to the Cub program. This is a complex issue, but in short, Tigers forced adult burnout in the program it made the program so long. A few numbers that I gathered 25 years ago was that less than 25% of families who joined the BSA as Tigers joined a Troop five years later. The most devastating statistic is that 50% of Webelos crossed over to the Troop. That is a huge number. And when I researched why families dropped out after Webelos, the basic answer was the program was boring. A little more research and I found that most Webelos leaders were burned out and didn't provide a fun program. The troop program is completely different and would most likely boost scouts toward fun again, but once a family wants out, it's hard to change their minds. If I were put in charge of National, I would change many parts of the program, mostly back to the what made the program successful, but I would start by making the Cub program a 4 year program, maybe even 3.5 years, to starve out adult burnout. Barry