Eagledad

Depends on the motivation of the Scoutmaster. Why is it that when someone has a different opinion, they have to be disrespected? For me the issue isn't two different opinions, the issue is the unwillingness to listen. One doesn't have to agree to a different perspective to be friendly, courteous and kind. In fact, isn't the quality of character measured by the re-action. There are as many approaches to working with scouts as there are personalities. ynot suggest that egos are in play here, but does motivation to express a perspective matter if the discussion is respectful, even informative. Several of us have a lot of experience with successful programs. The wisdom gained for that success came at a cost of struggling through many bad decisions. Mixed age or same age patrols, Venture patrols or not, new scout programs, successful summer camps, older scout programs, eagles. How did we get there? Doesn't that experience have value? Wouldn't a new leader want to at least consider the pitfalls as they venture into the complex world of Patrol Method? When I propose uniforms should be required, nobody asked why. Instead hostility followed. Why? It's not a new discussion, in fact I would say I participated in many dozens of them. Intellectual discussions. I used to teach in Scoutmaster Specific that Uniforms and advancement are the two most challenging methods of scouting for adults and scouts. And for opposite reasons. Nothing seems to have changed except that how one gives an opinion. Now we have to put on armor to get in a discussion. I miss the days when Scouters on this forum would dissect a subject to find the best way for it's application. That used to be a normal everyday discussion. Several at one time in fact. I haven't seen that kind of discussion in a while. While I'm not in favor of adding girls to the program, I did look forward to helping the new female leaders learn the mysterious ways of developing youth into adults. Barry

Ego, LOL. There is no discussion here on idealism of developing character, just personal character denigrating for winning the last word. Must be a sign of the times, the forum used to be filled with intellectual discussions of personal ideals. The irony is that pride is the general motivator for using character denigration as an argument to get the last word. TAHAWK, National created the loophole for hardship situations, not general practice. Refer to the ScoutHandbook, it doesn’t give the scout a choice. Wouldnt it be the prideful adult that would dictate otherwise? Weak leaders use the loophole as a crutch. The wise Scoutmaster encourages Scouts to use the Handbook for guidance in the direction of actions and decisions. The Handbook has no pride or prejudice like adults, just guidance for growing into adults of character. When allowed scouts will use their resources for their program. Barry

The loophole is your principal argument. I’m ok with that. Barry

It’s not about pleasing adults, it’s about developing moral and ethical decision makers. Under your theory, a scout doesn’t have to do a thing and would be fine. But, the patrol would struggle dragging the selfish anchor. Barry

National created the loophole for hardship. Scouts needs an excuse because they made a wrong decision. The scout handbook clearly describes how a scout should wear the uniform. Barry

These discussions always teeters on affordability. If the scout can afford a uniform, then what. Is there any excuse for not wearing it when it is expected . Barry

Yes, I like that. I would be interested in learning how Israel scouts trains adults. Barry

Sea scouts works because it requires more than just sailing from the scouts to be successful. The scouts were, and still are, expected to run the program. Most of the those types of programs were successful because the scouts took more interest than just the theme activity. Even today there are many successful Venturing Crews and Troop Adventure Programs because the scouts push the program forward. They are just shadowed by the many adult created adventure programs that hang on to the adults passion. I was part of an Explorer post when I was a youth, It was a very maturing experience. Quite different than the troop program in that the scouts were the operation managers and owners. The adults were more of just an interested resource. It was an attitude difference; scouts in the troop can run the troop, but there is always the hanging feeling that the adults are just waiting to jump in when something goes amiss. Scouts in the Explorer Post are part owners. They are responsible for the bad days as well as the good. I tried very hard to take that in our troop while I was a SM, and succeeded in many ways, but the troop program struggles with a large difference of maturity in the age spectrum. While the older scouts buy-in, they younger scouts still feel like they are part of a youth program. It works, because the older scouts teach by the actions of role modeling. But the challenge is greater on the adults, if they are even willing. Also, as you implied, the culture expected more maturity from youth in those days. Older scouts could just grab a sailboat and give it a try. At age 16, my dad was the SM of his troop. They would meet at the church steps on a Friday afternoon and hike out of the small town of Laurel Mississippi with their gear to find a place to camp. Sometimes an adult might attend, but it was WWII, many times it was just the Scouts. Adults back then gave youth more independence to drive their passions. I had an adult scouter friend who had much the same kind of experience in a small town in Oklahoma during the 60s. He and other scouts took turns being the SM because there weren't any adults available. He told me something I had never heard before about summer camp. The counselors at his camp camped alone in their specific theme area. Scouts would show up at any time to work on their specific badge, and then move on. He was expected to keep his campsite neat and clean and always wore a clean full uniform. He said that kind of responsibility was the best scouting for developing boys into men. There was nothing like that for his son. I remember that he was always in a ironed clean uniform when I saw him. He had a different respect for scouting that most of us don't have. Those scouts sound special to many of us today because they were special. If a boy wasn't interested in scouting, he wasn't scouts. If he was interested, then he gave his all. I remember being grateful for my experience in the Explorers when I was elected the president of our flying club in college. That club held national honors and the expectations on me were huge. It was the first time that held such a responsibility. I was naive and scared, but my experience in Explorers gave me enough confidence to take things one step at a time. I just did what I learned in the Troop and Explorers. And that experience gave me the confidence to be successful in my career. I have a lot of respect for Sea Scouts as well as it's history. Barry

Adventure patrols are difficult in nature to manage while at the same time maintaining a positive performance troop program. Rare is the adult who can achieve that kind of troop program. I only know of one SM (a mentor of mine) who managed to balance the two programs in the troop, and he has since retired. Our troop compromised by encouraging Temporary Adventure Patrols. Any scout, any age, could create a Temporary Adventure Patrol for whatever activity he wanted so long as he was the leader and recruited the members to manage it. The patrols were intended for one adventure outing and then it dispersed. It was an outside troop activity, so the scouts in the patrol had to meet outside of normal troop activities. All our Philmont and Northern Tier trips were Temporary Adventure Patrols. Along with the Scuba trip, Alaska trip, countless backpacking trips. We usually had at least one Snow Ski Adventure trip every couple of years. While the membership Chair for the district, I observed several troop programs that started Venture Patrols and Venturing Crews to give the older scouts a separate program. They generally dissolved in three years do to lack of interest. The problem is the motivation of the adventure patrols was wrong. If the older scouts were not happy with the program as Troop Scouts, what was going to make the program more interesting as Adventure scouts. Troop leaders need to develop the troop program to challenge the maturity of older scouts instead of splitting the troop with a program intended only to entertain them. The successful adventure programs are the ones where the scouts are "learning conservation and leadership skills in an outdoor setting."That kind of program requires challenging both the physical and intellectual abilities of the scouts. That is the kind of program that rewards a young adult for their efforts and makes them want to continually apply themselves. Barry

I did this when I was SM and CM. Uniforming is very important to me because how a scout follows the policies in the Scout Handbook is a series of right or wrong choices. But, I encourage the patrols, and dens, to use hats as a way to identify their patrol from other patrols. The Pack love the idea, but only a few patrols followed that suggestion. Barry

My first down arrow, ever. But that first paragraph is so off sided that only a down arrow can cover my opinion without having to write chapters of a different opinion. I have as many years of coaching as I do in scouting and very little of that post reflects my experience. Barry

They are required equipment for aircraft in Alaska and Canada.

So, are you asking if someone needs to consider life shooting a flare gun or death with some possible risk to the environment? When you're cold, hungry and thirsty, what should a scout do? Barry

The new color shirt is a powerful incentive for many youth. And, they usually need a new one for growth and age. I don't know what you would be saving. Barry

There is not an easy way to deal with this other than strait on. I like Double Eagle's suggestions, but some parents just can't help themselves. I had one such parent that was so bad that he took his sons patrol to McDonalds when they were complaining about food. When we talked to him, he shutdown and eventually took his kids and left. Another was continually hours late from campouts, There are things to worry about because "WHERE ARE THEY?". He also had a problem of stopping off for a meal. He was asked to step back and we never saw his again either. He didn't take his son out of the program however. I'm not saying your adult will be that extreme, but as a SM, you will have to learn to deal with difficult situations and adults. You have to protect your program and scouts. Some adults will not choose what is best for their scout or the program. We have a saying here; start with cup of coffee and see where that goes. But, stand firm because this won't be your first situation. Parent respect an authority that is fair and consistent so they know the kind of person that they are leaving their kids with for weekend or week. So, be brave, fair and consistent. Barry

We used pools all the time in the winter for swimming test. YMCA many of those times, but we used private pools as well. Swimming test at summer camp can be intimidating even in a pool. In fact, I think lakes are easier because they don't get so crowded. We've had scouts who are very comfortable in neighborhood pools panic at swimming test because it goes fast with a lot of scouts swimming at once. Typically they get retested the next day or two with no problem. We've also had a few non swimmers learn and get their "swimmer" ranking before they leave camp. We try to have a day at the pool so they can use their newly earned ranking and skill with all the other scouts. My advice for the uncomfortable scout is to get him comfortable at least with jumping in the pool and floating on his back. Many young scouts have never jumped into a deep end of a pool before their first summer camp. And Strangely, I've seen more scouts fail the floating part of the test than the swimming. Barry

Yep, closed cell works best for me as well, even on cots. I had not heard they are being phased out, but I typically use a cheap Walmart pad. Exercise pads would work too. Actually I have 2 pads, one for car camping and one for backpacking. The backpacking pad is cut down to 2/3s the normal length to save weight and space. My coat is use as a pad for the other 3rd (legs) on backpacking trips. Barry

Well, your young. These discussions have been going for 60 years (Black Panthers). I'm wondering why the billions in taxes over those years on this one specific ideal hasn't had any effect. Hmm, wondering wondering. Barry

LOL, so we are looking for a fix where there is no issue. I remember when we discussed real problems that were (still are) hurting the program. Seems we are living in a time when people feel empowered to demonize what ever personally offends them. In reading qwaze's mention of the uniform, I was reminded of a girl who joined the BSA and commented that she couldn't wait to wear the Boy Scout uniform. Well I guess one person knew about it. I wonder if the girls are going to be tagged as traditionalist. Barry

Adults create the units and manage the program. Folks who struggle with the idea that adults have any authority on the program usually put the program design a head of the Mission. Without the goal of building moral and ethical adults, scouting is just an after school activities program. A program intended to develop character requires continued tending to insure the youth are getting the most out of the Aims and Methods. Anyone who manages a true patrol method troop will agree that staying out of the Patrols way is a lot harder than just telling scout how to act in good character. Barry

Ah! I shouldn't have pulled the religious card. My bad. So much of my life is based from God's wisdom that it just blurted out as more of a habit. And maybe because I strive so hard to "Walk Humbly with God", I still don't understand how humility is anything weak. In fact, I think quite the opposite. Humility is a strength that a weak culture is afraid to flex. As I said, humility a servant action. Can't have integrity without humility. We each have our own walk. Barry

Head adult is OK I guess. But, that supports the myth that the Troop is a boys program where adults hang out only to drink coffee. Scouting is an adult program where Patrol Method is used develop growth in the youth that participate. Many keep implying that youth run the troop, so calling an adult a leader misrepresents the program. As I asked before, if a parent must talk to the program leader on a program management matter, who are they going to call? The youth? How about the Program Head? Of course that takes away from the Scoutmaster's main responsibilities, but we seem to have lost our minds lately on labels and titles. Barry

If you believe that humility is a feminizing term, you haven't read the bible. OK, so you aren't religious. Be careful to those who are. Barry

Yes, but who heard of Scoutmaster back in 1910? Just because she hadn't heard of the term doesn't mean the culture is all weird about it. And if someone hasn't heard the term before, which seems odd to me, they just learned something new. That's all. There are lots of things I never heard of when my daughter joined Girl Scouts. I didn't think that was odd. I just didn't know. There seems to be this concern (fear?) that the SM is assumed the "Leader" when the position is supposed to be something other than a leader. Really! Something other than leader! SOMEONE has to assert the program and protect the vision of the program goals. If leader is so bothersome, then what do you want call it? When your child comes home and says I don't like that program because it makes me feel bad about myself, what title do you want to use to find the person who is responsible for the program. Guide! Call the position what you want, but lets be honest in what the position actually requires. And, let's not blame this on culture, "master" is not offensive to normal people when used in the correct application. Barry

What a great topic. You should start one and see where it goes. My kids grew up learning about humility and how it directs life. But, I wonder, can one be born with it. Or, do acts of humility develop a humble spirit. We often talk of servant leadership. Servant is another word for sacrificial. Are those not acts of humility. In fact, can one be a servant without humility? Maybe humility grows with each act of the scout law. As the humble nature grows, the desire to act from the traits of the scout law grow as well. One thirst for the other. One grows from the other. The more we give scouts the opportunities to make choices, the more they choice to use the traits of the scout law. And the more they grow humble. I don't know, but I like that. One last thing I've realized late in my life; I believe patience is also a trait of humility. In fact, I'm not sure that we can act humbly without patience leading the way. 14th Point? Barry