Eagledad

Patrol Method is the main driver of growth in the troop program. How you see it in your vision? Barry

No, just observations. I really don't think all the members recognize it. Otherwise they would trolls. Barry

A lot forum members don't realize they have a record of strong opinions on this forum. While they say National has failed, their posts appear more to just dislike the present scouting program, or just scouting. I am a consistent critic of National where I believe they have neglected the philosophical principles that drive the heart of the program. But the general structure and design works well. Killing the BSA or even making major changes would make no sense to me. As far as I'm concerned, all the BSA needs is an attitude adjustment at the lop leadership levels. Barry

Who would you expect to do that? We can't even agree on the uniform here. Barry

There is patient, and there is patient. Our Webelos den was visiting a few troops in the Fall to decide the one they wanted to join. The SPL of one troop used our visit to teach lashings. Problem started when he couldn't remember how to tie the lashing. No big deal to us because those things happen and the scouts were friendly. But, their ASM was embarrassed and jumped in to show both his scouts and our Webelos how to tie the lashing. What made the situation so tenseful was the angry lecture he gave to his SPL in front of everyone, which was laced with four letter words that my kids only heard when I took on a plumbing project. I think that was the visit we decided to start our own troop. I didn't see it when I was young, but working with youth as a scout leader and coach taught me that patience and humility are the two most valuable traits adults can role model to youth. Barry

Do you not believe there a general frustration? Just like you, I was very active in the forum while I was active as a volunteer. I never felt like the discussions in the forum were out of context. In fact, I believe the information in the forum brought context to the bits of information that volunteers were hearing and experiencing. I don't think so. What I've noticed is that folks don't seem to bring a tone of anything except contrary subjects. Of what I've heard, this is the most civil Scouting forum. The other forum that I sometimes follow has almost zero traffic now, and it used to compete with this forum in it's heyday. So, where are the discussions we had 15 years ago? You really think this a Scouter.com problem. After National passed the homosexual membership change, I remember talking to a parent of a 5 year old about taking his son into scouts. He said they likely would not participate in scouting because just talking about scouting with friends brings up political bias debates. There is a lot of talk abut how the current environment has created the silent majority. Maybe there is something like that going on in scouting forums. They are out there just gleaning what they need from the discussions without having to identify themselves to a style of leadership. Barry

I'm not sure of your point Chuck, but if the youth are chuckling from the discussions on this forum, don't you think they are in the wrong place? After all, forums are by design where like minded people come to seek or give opinions of the particularities of organization structure and theories about how the activities should or should not be experienced. Of course each adult has an opinion on the how's and whys', but isn't that a good thing. If you want some ideas for your activities next month, this is a good place to ask. Sometimes a reminder has to be posted that Scouting is an adult program used to develop the participating youths into moral and ethical decision makers (confident citizens). Many of the ideas I've passed along over the years on this forum I first learned on this forum. The forums made me a better scouter, I'm sure it will you too if you're open to it. Barry

I know two Eagles about my age who are atheist. They went, they saw, they made a choice. If we don't encourage the one, how will they know the other? God and country in the same sentence doesn't mean they were intended as one in the same. The Oath is very directive of who the scout is to serve and list them in priority. One may not like the priority, but there is a philosophical reason for the list. Country represents community and family. Family or community as a whole requires loyal service for the good of their individual members. It's is a continued cycle; the act of service to one drives a wanting desire toward servicing the other. Barry

I believe the policy changes just in the last ten years have driven the more (experienced) dedicated volunteers away. Not so much because changes had to be made, but because there is some effort to discount those experienced volunteers opinions. From the volunteers perspective, I believe the desire to save the BSA would have been very different 10 years ago. Certainly 20 years ago. I use the differences of subjects and level of traffic on this forum as evidence. Folks keep saying scouting has to change. But to what? Who will drive or protect the changes to keep it to something significant with value. Who will prevent the program from just becoming an after school youth program that parents use as a safe place to hold their kids until they get home from work. Or is that what this generation wants from Scouts? Barry

Scouts Canada has been going hyper liberal since the 90s. This actually might be a tactic to appeal to conservatives. Barry

You may be right, but we had a lot of scouts with moms who used scouts to give their son more male role modeling.

Why would so many girls families join the dysfunctional Boy Scouts. Nobody knows BSA is dysfunctional. Very few on this forum even believe it. BSA started loosing itself when National started becoming more inclusive by watering down the program way back in the 60s. It continued with Tigers, more Eagles, and New Scout Patrols. These all contributed to a complicated program lost in mediocrity. Pack adults can barely keep their head above water while troop adults push scouts for advancement and leadership in a race for rank. If National doesn’t believe the BSA Mission and Vision, how can anyone else? Barry

I hear a lot of companies considering this approach, but I think they need to give it more time. After talking with folks who have been working out of their home for years, they aren't so keen on the idea because there is no place to go for stress relief of the work day. In fact, the distractions at home have their own added stresses. One person I know travels, or traveled, a week out of every month and that made the working at home acceptable. Now, he is going crazy. I know another who is planning to do the same thing, but the present environment only allows very limited travel if any. Barry

Guilty as charged. I led into my post with the track record of your opinion on scout uniforms. Barry

If you've never met a Mic-O-Say member, then you haven't experienced true unapologetic dedication. Scouters in that area either love it or hate it. No in between of what I understand. Mic-O-Say is a Super-Turbocharged version of OA. Most members I believe come from around the KC counsels, but many members are from much farther away. Barry

Maybe, but is there anything scouting can use for developing character that wouldn't be offensive to somebody. Even reverent is offensive to some here. At some point the Oath and Law will be changed and the pledge of allegiance discouraged. Barry

You are crossing two different subjects, my example of uniform of the 1940s, 1970s and 2020 has nothing to do with a my opinion of using Native American lore in the program. Barry

Religious choices? It's not about religion, it's about culture.Should non Native Americans be offended with Native Americans square dance or clog? Are you not a hypocrite if you aren't offended. When you start down those cliffs of slippery slops, you can't stop. Barry Ummmm, so!

I will be glad to have this discussion in a different topic because I wore my dads scout uniform in the 70s that he wore in the 40s. I have experience of your opinion. Garb, Uniform, Field, call it what you want, it's part of the scouting program. At least their part. I think your key word here is "I". Did you even research Mic o say? I mean the purpose of the program and philosophy behind the "Garb". Along with OA, discipline of making and wearing the custom develops and understanding and respect for the culture and cultural values. We live in a heavily populated state of Native Americans and I have never heard one say they felt disrespected by the Scouts. In fact, they felt honored that their culture was given as an example of the best of character. But we live in a time of activism, so I am not surprise of anyone being offended anymore. Barry

Yes, but you admitted in an earlier thread that you don't understand or care for the scouting uniform either, so you would likely struggle with any reasoning for group uniform in scouts. Honor from any tradition values requires respect. If one isn't willing to start with respect, how can they even conceive principles that are the foundation of the values? As for "their religious culture", are any Christians calling out christian Native Americans? Barry

Much of the time, if not most of the time, the CO really isn't that in touch with the program, the unit, or the COR. In fact, they appoint a COR so they don't have to get personally involved with the program. In their mind, they are basically just providing a facility for the units to meet. So, the CORs are usually either inactive, or over active. And just like everything else, if the COR wants to use the position for selfserving reasons, there isn't much to get in their way. The worst CORs are typically also unit leaders using their leverage to push the program as they see fit. I agree that a better path is to become friends with the COR, but, my experience is that meeting and getting to know the CO solves more problems down the road. While CORs come and go, the CO head is usually around for the long haul. We once struggled with the Chartered Organization to the point of looking for a new CO. When SE found out how serious we were about changing COs, he got personally involved and changed Chartered Organization perspective our a youth scouting program and found a new COR. Life was good again, but one of the issues that the CO was using as an excuses to not to like us was the ceiling tiles in the meeting room were being continually damaged. Which didn't make since to us, we couldn't see how our scouts would do that. The new COR investigated this issue and found that the GIRLS SCOUTS where tearing up the ceiling tiles with their flag poles and the youth Sunday School classes where throwing balls a the tiles between classes. The CO was quite humble after that and we never hand any issue with them going forward. Barry

When I stated doing scouting stuff at the district and council level, I developed a great deal of respect for the paid scouters because I observed and experienced a lot of bad acting by volunteers. The tragedy of a any volunteer organization is that volunteers with bad character are given authority positions because the organizations need volunteers to function. There is no real interview or mental testing of these folks, so you get a lot of folks in positions of authority that would never be given such responsibility anywhere else. And, even the non volunteer parents who are indirectly involved will often make a mountain out of molehills. As a unit leader, I've been involved with several situations where volunteers were asked to stay away from the scouts. But, when I saw how often the paid scouters had to deal with these people on a daily basis, I don't know how they put up with it. I really don't. SSScout's list is ideal, but it is not real world. Don't get me wrong, the OPs situation is bad. But, there are a lot of situations that are much more serious. And most situations don't just happen out of the blue. They more often develop in front of witnesses over weeks or months to where eventually the situation crosses the line and has to be dealt with in a serious manner. This happens because most people don't like confrontation and turn a blind eye. They are waiting for that one person, maybe even the parent, to step up and stop it. And then the responsible adults get a call in the middle of night. And once in a while, the call comes from the police. I have that T-Shirt. Yes, in this situation, the committee should have stepped in. But I could tell by the OPs post that the committee didn't have the courage. Most of committees don't. Interestingly to me, I find moms make better CCs for this one reason. Their motherly instinct that we often talk about getting in the of the Patrol Method is also the instinct that will stop bad acting by adults. When I look to build a unit adult staff, I learned to look for balance. A good unit requires understanding the goals of the program while insuring the program is safe. That is harder than you would think. Barry

Ironically, my go to person for getting action in this kind of situation is the District Commissioner (UC's director). Like Fred, my experience is COR's aren't reliable in these things. Sure, keep them in the communication loop, but don't wait for them to act. As for telling a parent their place of authority in a volunteer youth organization, the threat of litigation always levels the field. Barry

LOL, nothing in your responses reflect Scouting experiences. What else could I have glean from that? Barry

Mandate! Sheesh. Is anything mandated in the scout run program? Patrol method? Do you have the experience and maturity to let the scouts run their program within their handbooks? As I said, if hardship were taken out of the discussion, could their be an intellectual discussion in the forum today? Barry