Eagledad

>>How does one change a pack's "culture"? Any thoughts? You become the Cubmaster! Congratulations on a very rewarding and fun job. Barry

Please forgive me for resending this reply. I sent it to a similar discussion last week and maybe a few didn't see it. I hope it suggest a few ideas that will help. The uniform gives identity. It is an equalizer in that everyone starts equal by wearing it. The poor are equal with the rich. The Catholic is equal with the Jew. A boy from California looks no different from the boy from New York. You wont have to feel intimidation to try looking as important as the other guy does. The uniform also gives self-identity. A scout can set himself apart from the other scout by rank, leadership, patrol and even elite organizations like OA. While we start out as equals, our character and personalities sets us on different paths in life. The patches on the uniform identify our goals, dreams, experiences and rewards. Each scout is an individual when he wears the uniform. The scout uniform gives a perception. An elderly womens car breaks down late at night in an unfamiliar part of town. Two boys approach her from opposite sides of the street. Only one is in a Boy Scout uniform. Who will she pick to ask for help? Why? Once while traveling to Backpack in the Pecos, we stop to visit the Santa Fe art festival. Our scouts asked for a break from uniforms but the adults wore theirs. Our scouts were very impressed when we adults were given free lunches by the venders. They said it was a way of saying thanks. But it was more than that, out of crowd of thousands of people, we were identified as people of higher respect. Its fair to admit your scout's friends in school may not be seen wearing a scout uniform, but if they were to ask the qualities of a scout, more than likely character, trustworthy, and leader would come up, even from their friends. The Boy Scout uniform is well respected by most all. The uniform is a tool to build character. Sit down with your PLC and ask them what is the proper uniform. As an adult, you do not need to answer, and in fact more than likely you would be wrong too. After the discussion has been beat in the ground, ask the SPL to read the proper uniform from his handbook. At another time, ask the scouts about making decisions, when is it ok to make good ones, bad ones and so on. Mention the saying of Character is what you have when nobody is looking. Ask the scouts for examples of that. Youre given the incorrect change at a store, or you see someone who needs help opening a door. Is it fair to say that we can develop the habit of making bad decisions as well as good ones? Yes, in fact that is our job is to practice good habits in the troop. If a scout decides to not wear the uniform described in the book, is that a good decision, or bad. What habit is he feeding? Barry

What does dad say? If this is not a religious issue, then it sounds like a parent issue. Maybe dad needs to understand more about the patrol method and practicing the skills learned from it. Teamwork teaches the leadership skill of working together to accomplish a task. As the Council JLT coordinator, this is a very important skill for when he gets into the PLC. The skill of completing a set goal is also very important for young scouts. If he doesn't learn it now, he will have a difficult time completing other goals in the future like Eagle. IF the patrol starts to see the scout as a goof-off or someone they can't count on, he looses respect in the patrol and is usually pushed back in responsibilities. Respect of being a good leader starts first with respect as a good follower. The scout needs to understand that. The dad needs to understand he gets that by spending as much time with the Patrol as he can get. Maybe it should be suggested the dad stay home a couple of campouts. I have made this suggestion many times when a scout seems to use the parents as a crutch. And if the scout does have to leave because of church, then there are other ways to ask him to do his share so that he learns the skills of leadership and character. Barry

I shouldn't even get into this, but you guys keep pushing that uniform button. Our troop is one of those that uses the OD BDUs as part of our uniform. There is a long story behind why, but once the PLC made the decision, I took a pair to Council and asked if there was any problems, No. Advantages? They have small straps on the hips and cuffs that allow them to adjust four sizes so your small son can still wear them when he grows into your big son. My son who is now 6 foot one wore his for four years before he handed them to me. They have great big huge pockets that almost replace backpacks. They fit better and don't have that alastic waist, look sharp and the only reason they don't look the same as BSA pants is because they have great big huge pockets. AND, they cost twenty bucks at our local surplus store. Some of our scouts have been seen wearing them to school.I told that the great big huge pockets are in style. Disadvantages? OK, I will have to think on that. But my last point is that no matter what kind of uniform the BSA designs or that your PLC chooses, many will still not wear properly or with pride when given a choice. Why, because we are all individuals and life as a teenager is questioning everything you don't understand. I posted last week on the Uniform thread, if you want the scouts to wear full uniform because you think it looks better, then you're doing it wrong. The uniform is a tool to build character, fitness and citizenship. If you can't think of a better reason for the uniform than it makes them look better, then you're not seeing the big picture. It's not your problem how he dresses, it's his. Your problem is guiding him to understand why a person should wear the uniform and respect it. For some it's easy on instant, for others it's gradual and slow. But once he gets it, he will wear it because he wants to. As I suggested last week on the Uniform thread, think of other reasons why a 14 year old boy should wear a uniform with pride so we can take that back to our scouts. I started with a few if you want to look back. So what do you think? Oh, oldgreyeagle, I don't think you're a fuddy duddy. I wouldn't allow that word in the troop. Barry

Our Pack was very big, so we only recognize Rank, arrow points, Activity badges, Tiger paws and religious awards at pack meetings. Everything else was presented by the Den Leaders at their Den meetings. We also put the scouts name with a list of all his awards in the monthly Pack newsletter. However in trade, our awards presentations were usually very exciting and fun for the scouts and families. I tried to create a new ceremony for each pack meeting so the scouts and parents never saw the same one twice. I learned the best way to keep everyones interest was involve the whole audience in the awards. Sometimes I would tell a story and every time I mentioned Wolf, Bear, Webelos or what ever the award was, the audience had to yell something like CRY OF THE WOLF, or ROAR OF THE BEAR!. Or they may have to yell the name of the scout who was receiving the award. There is nothing like watching the face of a boy hearing his name yelled out in honor by 150 people. For me, the two objectives were keep the ceremonies fun, and make the awarded scout smile from ear to ear. Sometimes I would spread the different ranks through the meeting. Start the meeting with a ceremony for the wolves, do the bears in the middle of the meeting and finish with Webelos and Tigers. Once a dad who was an Eskimo Indian lead everyone in a tribal dance when I was recognizing Wolves and Bears. Once in a while I gave all the brothers and sisters bells to ring when they heard a scouts name. Another time I gave them feathers to wear. It was great fun. While I was a Webelos leader, I wanted my scouts to get use to the way most troops present awards at the end of meetings, so I presented Activity Badges at the end of each Den Meeting with the parents watching. The scouts loved this because they didnt have to wait a month for the pins, and they could show them off at the pack meeting. The CM presented the cards to the Webelos so they were still recognized in front of the whole pack for their accomplishments. Those were fun days. I love this Scouting Stuff Barry

I am not going to say start your own unit because I don't like it when I suggest a need for something better and they blow me off by telling me to go out and do it. But that is what we did. We also couldn't find a Troop where the Three Aims were the adult goals and the Eight Methods were the tools to reach those goals. There wasn't a unit where individual growth was the primary objective. When the word went out that we were looking to start a troop, a worn out SM of a worn out troop asked us to take over. He had six older scouts left and some worn out equipment. We took the risk, brought in 12 Webelos and set out on the most rewarding path of our lives. Three years later, we grew to 80 scouts and a reputation of a fun boy run troop. We didn't dare advertise or go looking for new scout because we were bigger than we wanted to be. We also have a reputation of working with scouts with learning disabilities. We have had retarded scouts, Autistic scouts, lots of ADD, ADHD, and Ds I have not even heard of. The Scout with a bad heart defect was our first Eagle. Our Deaf scout was next. So it can be done. It requires adults who want to build Eagles from the inside out, who want boys to have fun on their terms not yours, who have compassion for their struggles, but the courage and the strength to hold them accountable to the oath and law. It can be done. I am not suggesting you go out and do it, you have Webelos right now who need your wisdom and experience. But you can be an alarm for something better. If there is a black hole out there for a new kind of program, someone will listen and eventually get sucked into the hole. As for your Webelos, while I was helping develop our new troop, I was also the leader of 17 Webelos. One of the parents of that group enjoyed our Den program so much he started a troop in his church and took most my Webelos. A challenging experience for me to say the least. Eight of those Webelos have earned Eagles and invited me to their COHs. Each one stood up and said that their path to Eagle started in my den. Each one asked me to stand with his troop leaders to be recognized as someone who made a difference in his life. I'm at a loss how to ease your pain of the troop, but I dont believe in luck or coincidences anymore because too many of them seem to come together with purpose. While right now it doesnt seem so, I think God has a plan and has honored you to be where you are at right now. Your Webelos are lucky because they have you as a den leader. For them, growing into leaders of integrity starts now with you, not later in some troop. They have a leader and mentor who gets it and knows what to do. They have a jumpstart, and possibly the only start in scouting toward growing into the man mothers want their sons to be. I am glad Eagle Foot is close so you have someone to talk with in person. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I'm not sure the DE has that kind of power. She is part of the Key-Three, go ask your District Chairman and District Commish. If they don't know whats going on, then something isn't right. I would question why the DE has so much power on your committee. Barry

>>Why don't you just get on the troop committee so you can say NO!

Good point. Our troop has done a few night Troop-o-rees under the James Bond and Star Trek themes. This is basically competing in camporee style scout skills at night. We invite a couple other troops. The events start after a campfire about 9:00 PM and finish about 1 or 2 AM. We have also did a Triathlon campout where the patrols had to ride bikes, canoe and hike to different events during the day. Our scouts say biking campouts are one of their favorites and our shotgun/rifle shooting campouts are always big. One Venture patrol did a backpacking trip that started from our church and ended five miles away at a local lake. I guess Chippewa29 is right, Fun adventures can be more of using the good ol imagination. Good post. Barry

I think you would be surprised. One of the adults in our Troop is the climbing/rappeling instructor at Camp Alexander in Colorado during summer camp. He lends himself out to any troop that wants to rappel but doesn't have trained adults. We don't see him much because he's busy pretty much every weekend with some troop from Texas, Oklahoma and Kansas. We are in the same District as the unit in kwc57's pictures. I would venture to say at least half of the troops in our District rappel/climb at least once every two years or more. Just off the cuff, I can think of at least five that do it every year. Barry

Thank you for the kind words. Use all our post to your best advantage. I'm sure I have forgot a lot. We need to look at every aspect of scouting as a tool or advantage to build better men. I tell new parents that we are in the job of build citizens of character and leaders of integrity. In this skeptical rough and tumble world we have to use every trick in the book to help these guys see the advantages of making the right choices, freely giving a helping hand, and holding each other accountable in a compassionate way. I see uniforms as a great tool. As for your Pack problem. I got all my cubs into uniform by insisting the Webelos dressed in full uniforms. I called them my Cub Masters helpers and gave them the responsibility to set up chairs before meetings, run the flag ceremonies and take charge of clean up after all meetings. They got to help run pinewood derbys, help at campfires, special recognition from me, treats, and even awards. I made the Webelos the cool guys to be. But the Webelos had to be in full uniform to participate in being the CM Helper. In one years time the whole pack was in full uniform because they wanted to be as cool as the Webs. As for the adults, just explain that you have a job to do and they need to be seen as the role models of the pack. How does a scout know who gives that extra effort if they dress like all the other adults. Uniforms are a sign of responsibility and unselfish giving. These are qualities you need the scouts to see learn. Does this help? Barry

Wow! Great backhand Imascouter, OK its back in my court. I can write all day on this; so allow to me try and give ideas then allow the discussion to grow. As an adult, I want my sons to learn values that will help them when they are 30 years old, married with two kids. The uniform gives identity. It is an equalizer in that everyone starts equal by wearing it. The poor are equal with the rich. The Catholic is equal with the Jew. A boy from California looks no different from the boy from New York. You wont have to feel intimidation to try looking as important as the other guy does. The uniform also gives self-identity. A scout can set himself apart from the other scout by rank, leadership, patrol and even elite organizations like OA. While we start out as equals, our character sets us on different paths in life. The patches on the uniform identify our goals, dreams, experiences and rewards. Each scout is an individual when he wears the uniform. The scout uniform gives a perception. An elderly womens car breaks down late at night in an unfamiliar part of town. Two boys approach her from opposite sides of the street. Only one is in a Boy Scout uniform. Who will she pick to ask for help? Why? Once while traveling to Backpack in the Pecos, we stop to visit the Santa Fe art festival. Our scouts asked for a break from uniforms but the adults wore theirs. Our scouts were very impressed when we adults were given free lunches by the venders. They said it was a way of saying thanks. But it was more than that, out of crowd of thousands of people, we were identified as people of higher respect. Its fair to admit your scout's friends in school may not be seen wearing a scout uniform, but if they were to ask the qualities of a scout, more than likely character, trustworthy, and leader would come up, even from their friends. The Boy Scout uniform is well respected by most all. The uniform is a tool to build character. Sit down with your PLC and ask them what is the proper uniform. As an adult, you do not need to answer, and in fact more than likely you would be wrong too. After the discussion has been beat in the ground, ask the SPL to read the proper uniform from his handbook. At another time, ask the scouts about making decisions, when is it ok to make good ones, bad ones and so on. Mention the saying of Character is what you have when nobody is looking. Ask the scouts for examples of that. Youre given the incorrect change at a store, or you see someone who needs help opening a door. Is it fair to say that we can develop the habit of making bad decisions as well as good ones? Yes, in fact that is our job is to practice good habits in the troop. If a scout decides to not wear the uniform described in the book, is that a good decision, or bad. What habit is he feeding? I can go on but I need to let other contribute. Barry

>>My question is HOW DO WE ENCOURAGE BOYS TO WEAR THE FULL UNIFORM WITH PRIDE? I am speaking of boys who own the entire uniform

Yes but, what does your son think, what is he doing about it? Your emotions see this as a door closing on your son, but my experience sees one opening for opportunity to grow. I say it a lot, but a scout troop is the adult world scaled down to a boys size. The adult world is not perfect and these things happen there as well, what do you do about it. And it's not as if you son is stuck, he has a lot of tools in his scout bag. He has the Patrol Method tool that gives him the ability to speak out and suggest change. Everyone in the Troop has equal voice because the Patrol Method is a form of democracy. He has the Leadership Tool that gives him the conduit to give his opinion. He can talk with his Patrol Leader or Troop guide. He can move up to the ASPL and SPL. He can set up an appointment at the next PLC meeting and make his voice heard to all the leaders. He has power and he can make a difference. Hey, I know it appears this decision of PLC is boys behaving badly, but I have listened to hundreds of PLC meetings and I can't recall a single one where the scouts were so careless that they purposely pushed scouts away from their program. They are young men learning how to be good leaders, but they require experience. Its more likely they were thinking of preventing your son from having a bad experience. I will take compassion any day over intentional separation of young scouts from arrogant older leaders, even if the compassion is misdirected and a wrong solution. Go and ask your son, what are you going to do about this. Guide him, teach him and show him his capabilities, his tools and how to make changes. Dont give him the answers, but ask him questions that led him to think the answers. This scouting at its best. While youre sitting there frustrated and possibly wondering about this troop, I think you deserve praise. Go get a cool drink, find youre most comfortable chair, and think about this. You might have joined a troop where the adults didnt even allow the PLC to suggest new ideas. You might have joined a troop where the adults let the scouts suggest ideas, but are always changed because the adults want to run the show. You might have even joined a troop where they PLC planned a new idea, but it was changed to make scouting easier for the adults. One of the hardest task for a SM is getting the scout to feel comfortable dreaming. To think his wildest ideas and to suggest change. Our children are told over and over that they must do it this way and must learn it that way. Shouldnt there be one safe place in this world where a boy who dreams can actually make that dream come true. Shouldnt there be a safe place where failure only means youre one step closer to success. You could have joined all those other troops where your son might have got his Eagle patch, but probably not the heart of the Eagle. You did good, you choose this troop, one where scouts can dream and suggest an idea. A troop where the boys are allowed to screw up, os they can learn and try again. You even found a troop where it is so much fun that they average three Eagles a year. So pat yourself on the back and take the night off. I think you found a Troop where your son will grow to be a Citizen of Character and leader of Integrity. You found a good boy run Troop. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Good post Dan. My post was more of shifting adult perspective, but there are two important points to older scout programs. First, the adults in a boy run program have to grow with the program as much as the boys. We adults have to learn to push our limitations so that our fears or ambitions dont limit the scouts growth. Small example is do you trust your SPL to run a productive PLC meeting without any adults attending. If not, then the adults need to develop the program that direction. I look at all parts of our program and evaluate whether or not I have to be there just so they can accomplish their task. My objective was to have a troop of scouts that never needed adults around to get the job done, including camping. If adults don't grow in trust, the program will be limit the scouts growth. So how does that work with older scouts, well adults tend to look at a program where the eleven years olds are equal to the sixteen years olds. We know that's not true because they have vast amounts of experience, training and maturity, but adults seem to think in the one plane. Instead of visualizing your ideal older scout, Start treating the older scouts with the respect that matches their maturity and experience. I know of adults at Philmont with no backpacking experience who feel the can order scouts with lots of backpacking experience around because they are, well they are adults and the scouts are just boys. Start allowing your scouts to be adults, give them adult responsibilities. Make an older scout the adviser to Grubmasters and cheermasters. Have them take on the paperwork responsibilities of advancement. When you take them on a campout, don't make them lead or teach the younger scouts because they are the older scouts, ask them to take the responsibility because they are the best at it. There is a difference. I have not taught a single scout how to build a fire, tie a knot or even cook in the last several years because there are plenty of older scouts who are better at it than me. In fact, there is only one advantage adults have over a 17 year old mature experienced scout, Lifes Experiences. That's it, experience of life. And to a seventeen-year-old, that is toughest part of his life. A whole lot of ideas, but no experience, and no place to try them. I know this sounds very simplistic, but I found that adults have a hard time giving up their jobs and there know it all attitudes. But, if you can humble yourself enough, to maybe teach a scout to help with the scout bank accounts, advancement records or even Scoutmastering, you are pushing the boundaries of your trust and giving boys opportunities they can't get anywhere else. They will remember your mentoring for a long time. And, you will enjoy working with these young adults because they have so many great ideas. Oh I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Koreascouter is right. A boy run program in scouting means the scouts learn by their actions. That means the adults allow the scouts to plan run the program to learn by the results of the program. But what many units don't understand is that adults are their the scouts guide in their struggles. I know it's hard to know when to step in and when to let the scouts go, but failure upon failure develops habits of failures. If scouts arnt going on camps, then the SM brings his experience and wisdom in the PLC meeting and ask why. The program is based of Aims and Methods. The adults are responsible for the Aims, the scouts are responsible for the methods. If the scouts are failing at the methods or they arent learning from them, then the adults are failing in achieving the AIMS. You pointed out the bad cooking at a campout, I've learned that cooking is a good sign of how the program is working. A patrol should have a weekend of bad cooking to learn from, the scouts messed up, they didn't achieve the clean or health part of the law. They need to be coached to understand their struggle, then stand back to see how the change. If the adult didn't do that, if they don't point out the bad side of unhealthy cooking habits, then they failed the scouts, failed the their program by not promoting the Aims part of the program and they failed the parents by not developing character at an opportune moment. A lot of times the adults just aren't sure what their goals are, so they fall back on what they do know, that camping, scout skills, and advancement. But, that is the scout's responsibility. The adults have to learn how to coach, motivate and teach scouts to achieve those goals. The first question I usually ask of all my scouts and SPLs, "what was the goal? "What was the result? "Why? Help the scouts understand where they are going, help them with the tools, but let them do the pioneering, the work, the planning and the fun. Then encourage a program where they come to you when they don't reach their goals. Inspire them to come up with ideas and try again. But don't let them get away with failure without them at least understanding they failed. Get them to seek success with their actions. Failure is OK, if we use it as a step to grow. Here's what we adults should practice, don't worry about there goals except as a tool to measure their struggle. We adults should worry about what growth they get in character, fitness and citizenship. Example, I don't care what they eat on a campout, I do care that they live within the scout law and scout oath. I want my scouts to learn the value of nutrition (fitness), the "discipline" of preparing the right foods and cleaning up afterwards in the right manner (character), and everyone working together, helping to cook, eat and cleanup (citizenship). I also know that they may have to eat badly before they understand why they should eat well. Let's look at your cabin issue. What value does camping in tents have over camping cabins when it comes to fitness, citizenship and character? Well I can tell you I like scouts to set up tents in the dark and rain because the confidence gained from knowing you can set up a tent successfully in adversity is enormous. The skills learned will be felt on a backpacking trip or a wilderness-canoeing trip when the scouts are stuck in bad whether. Confidence is your best ally when it comes to growth and trying something challenging like rappelling. Let you scouts know your goals. They don't really care about the Aims because they are boring. But if they know that you have goals of character building and you can justify the activities in your program to develop character, then they are receptive to why you ask questions to their performance or lack of. They will even try to start thinking like you as to why they do the things they do. We had agreement in my troop, if I couldnt justify anything we did to character, citizenship and fitness, then they didn't have to do it. It forced me to focus on those goals and the whys, and allowed them to understand their huge area they could plan under. Have them focus on gaols and performance. Dont be afraid to be the Master Scout. The person who knows the value of reaching high and achieving your goals. Once the adults change their expectations to the Aims, then you can start coaching and guiding toward those goals, and encourage the scouts to plan a fun program. You will be amazed at the rewards of your program. Good luck Barry

>>When do you step in, or do you ever?

>>Eagledad, Just curious as to how you lit the neckerchiefs on fire without them burning up? Does the cloth come from planet Krypton like Superman's suit?

Traditions are interesting. They are great for adding fun and character to a program, but can bring it to a stand still as well. I watched one pack restrict their Webelos from joining a Troop until April because they always wait until April to do Crossovers, and I saw another Pack of Webelos have to go through a paperwork nightmare because the Troop they visited in January submitted the applications they filled out for the AOL requirement before the Pack submitted their names for the AOL award. I have found that Blue and Golds go on twice as long because someone once said that they were only for Webelos graduations. Others have said that Blue and Golds are the only place a Scout can receive his AOL. Our Troop is getting new Scouts in December because their leader is moving out of town. We have the opportunity here and now to start a new tradition. Packs do graduations, troops do the Crossovers. The graduation can have a bridge or something different and better. The Troops can start their own cool ceremony where the SPL has the opportunity to welcome the Webelos and his family into his Troop. The SM stands back proudly watching his PLC doing what they do best, lead the Troop. Now that sounds cool to me, boy run at it's best. Whatever we adults decide is best for the boys, its still just adults deciding what we think is best for the boys at that time. It's still just traditions that can be changed into a new and better traditions when we find they don't fit the program anymore. Be creative, be thoughtful, be compassionate, and make sure it's fun. If you do all that, it will be a great new tradition. My favorite crossover was the one where we lite the Webelos neckerchiefs on fire then watch them burnout without any damage to the neckerchief. They weren't on the boys at the time ofcourse. Now that was fun. I love this Scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All Lots of good suggestions have been posted. I have found that in most cases the parents just havent been asked. Our Pack made a commitment that Den leaders would do nothing other than Den Leading. If we couldn't get parents to do Blue and Gold, Pinewood or other activities, then we wouldn't do them. We never failed to have these activities because when we asked, they came. Nine out of ten times a parent will say yes when you talk to them personally. A phone call or just walking up to them during a meeting works fine, but you have make the personal contact. There are a couple of suggestions to help. When asking, tell them you are looking for assistance, not directors. Most fear the leadership, not the work. But once you have the first meeting, you delegate the task off to the adults, including someone to track the task, who becomes the director. Get plenty of help, the more help, the more FUN it becomes. When I got four dads together to run the pinewood derby, they had meetings just to meet. Those dads recruited all the next Pinewood committees from that day on. Same with Blue and Gold. We asked a few Webelos moms to do Blue and Gold one year and they turned it into a tradition that Webelos moms do Blue and Gold. I am not suggesting you get all Webelos moms, but they had so much fun, they wanted to continue it the next age groups. If it becomes a real pain, then change it. Sometimes the effort to do an Activity is not worth the pain of trying to get it running. We had an opportunity to make a lot of money at a fund raiser but it became clear that the work involved was a lot greater than the money made. After three years we gave it to another Pack. We never regretted it. If Cubs is to be fun and rewarding for the boys, it has to be fun and rewarding for the family. Get the whole family involved. But they aren't going to come to you. Get on the phone and find you assistances to do your Blue and Gold. Have a meeting to get organized and delegate those duties off to other parents who deserve to have fun. Give them a chance to say, "I love this Scouting stuff". Barry

Hi All I have done a long study on this and the large problem is bored Webelos. I found that Webelos who enjoyed their den program and den leader relate that positive experience to future scouting, while Webelos in a boring dens relate that to troops and want to quit as soon as they can. I also found that Webelos don't have to camp or model a Patrol to have fun, it base more from a fun they have at their meetings and a positive attitude from the den leader. There are several reasons for this problem, but by far the largest is leader burn out. No matter if its the church, little league sports or scouting, the average voluntier usually burns out after three years. Take that average and look at the tired Bear leader who opens the Webelos book and finds that the program encourages camping in possibly cold or hot weather, sleep on the hard ground, cook on a fire or camp stove, hike in a bug infested wilderness and learning boy scout knots to teach the Webelos. Most Bear leaders are female who don't have a youth experience in the above skills. Many of these leaders find replacments, but many do not. There are several ways to attack this problem, but I learned the hard way not creat programs for all the dens when you just want to find and help the few. I beleive the best approach is train the Comissioners to monitor the Webelos dens and identify the weak ones. There are several ways to measure the performance of a Webelos den, but the boring ones stand out. Once a weak den is identified, then find a SM or Troop that will take the den under it's wing an help the den leader give a fun program. This can be done by helping teach a few Activity Badges and maybe attend a few activities. I advise against turning the den into a patrol type den because this could hurt the boys first year troop experience. But helping with knots, cooking and outdoor activities would help the burned out leader a lot, not to mention expose the scouts and their families to the fun in a troop. There are a lot of other ideas we can come up with, but my point on this thread is the majority of Webelos who don't cross over are from boring dens. I beleive a district could improve cross overs by at least 25 to 30% in three years when they monitor the dens. I also found that Districts that monitor there cubs have a much higher cross over rate. I don't think we should blame the cub or troop program for this problem, Cub Scouts is a long hard program. Someone mentioned the Girl Scouts seem to do better at cross overs. I looked at this and also found it to be true. If you look at their program however, you find they cross over their scouts to the next level in three years or less. If I were to make a proposal to the BSA to fix this problem, it would be to seperate the Tiger program and start it at the age of five and keep the boys in that program for two years, then cross over to Pack. This is what the Girl Scouts basically do. This would solve other problems as well. I hope this helps the discussion. I love this Scouting stuff. Barry