Eagledad

I believe anyone who is seen is a role model. Even we adults still have role models. What we need to understand is that everyone has good and bad habits or behaviors. The parents of the scouts have to measure the good against the bad and choose the role models they want for their sons. I can't imagine a parent turning away from a rather large SM, half those in our District would be disqualified, but you never know. Many believe the behavior of smoking is more harmful than homosexuality, many believe just opposite. I try and point it out to adult leaders like this. Our council has access to recycled plastic mugs. One adult about 15 years ago started making brands so that the scouts could brand there mug and show all the activities they participated in the council. Many units now have there own brands as well. Anyway, imagine the mug as the scout, and each brand as one adult. Your brand will stay with that scout forever. You have to decide what your brand looks like. Good discussion. Barry

leave the scouts in reguler patrols were the older scouts are role models. Encourage any scouts who wants to do a high adventure trek, what ever it is, to start a Venture patrol for that trek. Scouts interested in doing that trek become a member of that patrol until the trek is over. Then they go back to their other patrol. You will find a couple of scouts hopping from trek to trek, but most do not. You maintain the patrol structure and encourage a more adventurious program at the same time. And what I like about it is there dosn't have to be any age reqirements other than what the trek requires. You may have a Scout who wants to peddle across Oklahoma, why not, it's a fairly flat state. And you have a 12 year old bike racer who would love to go. Now he can. Barry

I wasn't going to respond because after awhile these replies are like ping-pong, is too, is not, is too, is not. But twin_wasp served one over that reminded me of an incident while I was a cub master. I needed an Assistant Cub Master, so I approached a dad who I was told was an Eagle Scout. He said he wouldn't become a scout leader because he was an atheist. He then followed by explaining how scouting gave him a window of adults believing in God. It allowed him to see both sides of religion and later as an adult he made the choice. He said had it not been for the scouts, there would not have been a choice, he would have started as an atheist. He had so much respect for the examples that scouts provided that he didn't want to confuse boys today. He wanted his son to see men who believed in God so he could choose later. You said it yourself, boys are very acute observers at this age. Role models will influence them and scouting holds the line to one example of how a man should behave. If we don't set a standard, we take away choices. True, some boys will choice differently, but at least they got to see the difference. (Hey, is twin-wasp referring to an airplane?) Have a great scouting week. Barry

My experience is the Scout needs at least a year of Troop experience before he is mature enough to work well with a Den. Seems like they need that much time to grow into more of being a boy scout mentor instead of one of the guys. It's tough in this day and age though, a lot of adults want their scouts taking on leadership responsibilities after six months. They don't understand that it's OK to just let them enjoy having fun. The program is designed to be there when they are ready. I rarely had trouble with 12 and 13 year old Den Chiefs. Also training is important. We train our own and teach them how to control the scouts, get them to respect the scout sign, how to initiate helping the leader, running games, but letting the adult lead. It worked well for us. Have a great scouting day. Barry

Hi rockymtnscouter, Bw is right, you guys need to make a change in your positions to encourage a healthy program. But assuming for the moment that your problem is as you presented, you need to find a third party to present the problem. We have a good Unit Commissioner who handles these situations very well when the CC can't solve the problem. The DE is another source but that also depends of their ability to listen and suggest solutions. Another possibilty is the Charter rep. or a respected member from another unit. We had a situation solved by the Wood Badge Counselor of the problem adult. He was the only person the adult trusted. And sometimes it is us who is wrong. The third person can see the whole picture without prejudice or bias which can bring integrity to the solution. Good luck, Barry

I think there is no less respect for our military. The space program is just a single focal point of all the good we view of Americanism. It represents us. What makes us unique in the eyes of the world is that we appear limitless in our power and they see our Military as our strength. But we Americans feel our strength comes from the courage to look into the unknown and explore it. We use our Military to protect that strength, not to push it. One reason so many foreigners move to the U.S. is because there are no limits to who we can be, and where we can go. How many times have your heard that the United States is the land of opportunity. I remember very well the first shuttle landing. I was very proud for us all. Barry

We have been suggesting more training at the RT for several years, but the professionals have resisted it because RT is designed to hand over the next months themes and program features. This year our Training committee started something new, we now teach Scout Leader Basic Fundamentals at all the RTs. This was design to try and fix the confusion of the new Scout leader Training program. We wanted unit leaders to know they can start the first step of adult training by sending their leaders to RT. We also set in stone all the other Scouter Specific training every forth month on the first weekend so the unit leaders don't have to search for a training schedule to know the next training date. That also includes Youth Protection and First-aid. We will add other classes like water safety and needed classes as we get better. The only control we don t have is outdoor leader training. If we did, that would be the second weekend following the specific training. How much easier can it get? Anyway back to the story, when Council found out that we were doing Scout Leader training at RT, they brought it up at the Council Training meeting to debate the idea off. But when we pointed out that we had 40 participants at the normally slow December RT and more than doubled the RT, the debate went the other way. Our February Scouter Specific Class last week was the highest numbers since the new training program started a year and a half ago. February is seen as a low training month because it's before the crossovers for troop leaders and after the Fall Cub training. Needless to say, Council is watching now. Now, in my view, RT has to change with the culture. We are now a fast paced society with little time for a RT designed to review monthly themes. I think the switch has to be changed to training and unit guidance to improve programs. Personally I'm not sure there is any kind of real future with RTs anymore, but I'm willing to feel out different ideas. I can tell you adding training sure has made a big difference for us. Good suggestion BW Barry

Yes, it is a seperate issue, that's why I didn't want to wonder around too much. There are many factors to scouts continuing in their scouting experience. I tend to focus on the problem that appears over and over. At least around here, I think the weak den leaders is at least 50% of the problem Your right about National, and I asked our professionals how they track Webelos so I could find out why my findings seem so different. They didn't have a good reason but they did explain that National doesn't always look at numbers so much as they poll families and leaders. That makes since, that is what I did. I found that in one pack, you could have two dens with completely different crossover numbers. When I talked to the families, I found the scouts in one den hated their webelos experience while the other den had full expectations to crossover. Another interesting fact I learned was that you could have a completely un-Webelos like den, no camping, no hiking or out doors program, just basically crafts or something. But if they were having fun and visited troops, they crossed over. It wasn't so much the program had to be the cool Webelos outdoor program, it just had to be a fun with some expectation that Troops was the next step. Surprised me. Hey Bob, thanks for your time, I learned a lot. Barry

>>My suggestion to packs is to have a webelos transition person who knows and My suggestion to packs is to have a webelos transition person who knows and understands good boy scouting. have them visit the troops and evaluate the programs. Then hold those troop leaders to the quality of program your Webeols deserve in a troop.

Make it JLT! I was one of those SMs who asked scouts to be Den Chiefs because I know how well it helped the Den leaders. But, what I learned was the Patrol leaders who had Den Chief experience where much farther ahead in leadership skills. They were comfortable controlling the group. They knew how to handle disapline better and they had confidence in their leadership. As a JLT Director, I can tell you that no matter what skills the scout has, if he has confidence, he is already three quarters way to good leadership. We started making Den chief the first offical JLT experience for our scouts. We give them about two hours instruction then sent them off. We let packs know we were lookiing for dens, but that's never really been a problem because packs remember us. I was going to add this to the JLT thread, but since it came up. I'll start it here. I am so convienced by the Den Chief experience that I am working to add it as a Council JLT guideline. Many districts do Den Chief training and my hope is that more will make it a higher priority if they see it as part of their leadership development program. Good suject twocubdad Barry

Thank you BW. Very interesting and refreshing to here for some strang reasonl. I must chew on this for a while because there are some struggles in scouting that need attention. I feel that eduacation is a starting place but the difficulty in this is the leadership has to lead first. And that is the problem I have run into starting with the Council on down. Persistance has gotten me a long way in scouting, and I think this is one of those areas that needs a lot of it. So let me present a situation that you have already read from me. Cub units today have a little more than the can handle, for a lot of reasons Webelos leaders struggle and don't provide a program the makes a boy want to continue to troop programs. We can banter the reasons, but I have watch this for a long time and I know that we can bring more Webelos to Troops if we could just identify those weak dens. Other Districts that have an 85% or greater crossover have active membership committees that monitor the Bears and Webelos to watch for problems. I thought of doing this but as I said before, I beleive simplicity so the program can be handed over to the next adult. I want to use what should already be there. My question is how do you see your solution to my dilema? I will leave it at that for now and think around your post. Thanks again. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Major problems to your points are that In most of the BSA Unit Commissioning is broken. It has been broken for decades, (Many at the National level know it they just don't know how to fix it) but thats another thread.

Hi Bob, been out a while. I guess we have to get through this. >>But no where has the BSA ever used the number of Eagles as a measure of a units program.>>>"Oh well, I guess the farther away you are from the scouts, the harder it is to find common successes to praise."

With all do respect Yoshimi, this is the most un-scout-like post I've read on this forum. Free speech not with-standing, the Scout Law should be a minimum standard. Would you like a reference? Barry

>>We are very much boy led. But Boy Led doesn't mean no guidance, no help, no suggestions, and no goals. Our schedule is fungible and very much influenced by the boys. In fact if we were just pushing one could make Eagle even faster than we lay out. I guess it depends on one's view point.

Hi Bob I guess YOUR Council doesnt track Eagle success, but ours delivers a good job speech with numbers every four months. Oh well, I guess the farther away you are from the scouts, the harder it is to find common successes to praise. Our Troop doesnt track rank annually, at least we don't add the numbers. The SMHB says, ideally scouts should get to first class in their first year. I have not been able to find how they determined that, but it may have come from the same study that suggests the ideal troop size somewhere around 30. I've seen several SMs take that first year suggestion to heart and stump their program with too much focus on that one method. We do watch losses if that helps you. Between 5 to 10 percent for the first year scouts when we finally developed a New Scout program we liked. By the way, typically those losses came in the first six months. I found that to be about the same in units around us. I would enjoy finding out if that is true nationally, but they dont track that. Thanks for the reply. Have a good evening. Barry

>>I am curious about the posters who say that leadership training should begin in the troop early on, when in fact that has been the program for over ten years.

Hi Dan Junior leader training comes under many titles. JLT is more of a general term referencing junior training of some type. The BSA produced a JLT Kit for units which many folks think about when they hear JLT. But there are many other names for Unit and District JLT type Training called PLD patrol leaders training. But there are so many names and acronyms that you still have to ask about the type of course. There are several Council course names alone. JLTC, Pine Tree, Brownsea and so on. JLT Thunderbird is new to me but I really like that one. That one could have a really cool logo and patch. Hope this helps Barry

The SM Handbook and the PLC portion of the SM Specific training class (which I teach) only give guidelines and suggestions toward a healthy boy run program. These are starting places for a healthy program foundation, but as the scout grows and the program grows, the dreams of these young men push the limits and so we must push out ours. If we put limitations on the scouts program, we will stand in the way of growth. The hardest job a Troop scout leader has is getting out of the way of the scout. Im not suggesting everyone jump to the weekly format because we are all different. I am only suggesting that those who have, have found it to work better because it is easier on the scouts, the adults and the boy run program. Sst3rd, our meetings are basically the same as yours. It is done before all the other scouts arrive and just about all the planning is done there with the ASPL polishing it. We have an advantage that the SM can coach the SPL after the meeting and then he only has to wait a week to try the idea. 4, 7 or 8 weeks are a long time to wait. We tried and it was frustrating because the SPL and PLC made basically the same mistakes and the adults had to maintain order. Also, when the SPL assigns task or ask for ideas from the patrols, a month is way to long to check on the progress of the task. He spent too much time on the phone and it required a lot of discipline from a 13-year-old Patrol Leader to keep up. Weekly reports are much easier for younger leaders. As for adults in the meeting, we found it was impossible for adults to let the scouts run the meeting. I have yet to see a meeting run with more than one adult where they didnt push some thought or idea. Its like trying to get men to ask directions. We are not wired that way. So we keep the adults in hallway out of site only listening. If there needs to be any adult input, they can ask the SPL later. The SPL only needs to wait a week to give the adult suggestion to the PLC. Works very well and allows the SPL to maintain control. Our SPL calls the SM the night before the meeting to review the agenda and to get the adult announcements. We changed to this away from meeting before PLC meetings because sometimes the SM and SPL needed more time. Sometimes either the SM or SPL were late for the meeting. A call the night before is relaxing with very few limitations. The SM and SPL review the performance of the PLC and Troop meeting the last thing before the SPL locks the doors and gives the key back to the SM. Rarely does the SM interrupt the SPL during the evening. Whether he is dealing with a misbehaving scout or directing the program, we want him to feel the aches and pains of the job so he feels motivated ask questions. I wrote down little notes then reviewed them later that night. The SPL was encouraged to do the same. I always asked questions, never directed criticism. Thank goodness too, sometimes things werent as them seem and the SPL was right. As for the BSA basic Troop model, I have been involved with the new adult training in the Council and I am responsible for our Council JLT program. When we sit down talking about training courses, basically we think of the new scoutmaster. We are thinking of the starting place and basic structure of his program that gives him and the scouts time to get their feet on the ground. Eventally the SM should step back as the wheels are turning and lets the scouts grow. I find the uniform discussions interesting because sometimes it shows the limited vision of us adults. Our parental and adult nature naturally think in terms of looks and color, but character is on the inside and is shaped by experiences. Same goes for the way we only think our way is the only way we don't let these guys try something different from our vision. As I said before, we shouldnt try to make the boy fit in our perception of a boy scout. We should ask him what he thinks and then ask why. We should test his actions and ideas against the Scout Law or Oath, not our vision. He may have a better idea, and many times does. Are you prepared to let him try that idea? What are the limitations that would permit him to try these new ideas? That is why WB was changed, the adults were trying to make the scouts fit in the adults Patrol Method experience. Patrol Method is not a mold to force each scout into one shape. Patrol Method is our tool, it's the hands of experience and struggle shaping the scout like a piece of clay. Each one is different with different needs and ideas. The shape depends on his personal experience. The Methods in scouting have to be flexible. That is why I try to teach adults in my classes to think of the program in terms of character, citizenship and fitness. Its not how many times the PLC meets, its what they get from the PLC meeting and is it meeting their needs. First we must get our programs on the ground, the SM Handbook, the SPL Handbook and the Patrol Leaders Handbook will do that very well. But once it gets started, we adults must start pushing out our limits and thinking outside the box so that the scouts have room to push out their limits and think outside their box. Its unfortunate, but the adults in the boy run troop, not the scouts, limit boy growth. Ive got to tell you that while thinking about our PLC meetings, a lot of memories of scouts saying, "Oh I get it!" were brought out. When I think about all I have watched from your sons and mine, I get pumped and fired up. This program is the best at building men, and we are here in it right now doing it. What you do today with one boy for one minute may change his life forever. Thank you God because I love this scouting stuff. Hey, have a great day, I am trying to get to the JLT stuff. We have some great experience on this forum. Barry

Hi Dan That was me and I should have been clearer. We have a 20 to 30 mminute PLC meeting followed by the hour and half Troop meeting every week. We change to this format so the SM could coach the SPL on a weekly basis, so the PLC could set gaols and monitor them weekly, and because practice makes perfect. Our guys will attend at least 25 PLC meetings during their six month time in office, and really twice that adding post Planning meetings and campout PLC meetings. Our guys really like the four 20 minute meetings a month over the two or three hour meetings once a month on the weekend. >how much does the PLC plan or do. Pretty much everything. Sometimes they do it badly, but that is boy run. >In your troop does the PLC plan the troop meetings with an agenda? The SPL is expected to write and agenda for every PLC meeting and campouts. I beleive agendas are so important for a successful leadership that our scouts at JLTC will plan at least a two a day. It's the first lesson I gave to the SPL after election. >Brainstorm for High adventures? Our Venturing patrol does that at a seperate plannng session as well as the PLC does a six month planning at a seperate session after an election. We plan the second six months of the annual agenda so the new PLC can walk into their six months already planned. >Plan and setup campouts? Partically, the ASPL in charge of program does a lot outside. The PLC handles all the business issues, troop gear, rules, disapline and so on. They even do the tour permits. >Or is this done outside the PLC and only high levels >details talked about at the PLC, like is the agenda done >and they approve it? I have found it depends on the ASPL. We teach the ASPL to plan all the details a month a head of time, then have the PLC give suggestions, then vote on it after the changes. But some scouts are more challenging than others. So it is somewhat dynamic and challenging for the SM. But the PLC is use to doing it all. My motto is a good SM is a lazy SM. My goal was to not attend at least the last months PLC meetings except for adult annoucements. No other adults are allowed except by permission of the SPL. Which he always gives. Most adults who saw the troop before and after we changed to the 20 to 30 minute PLC format believe it made the most dramatic improvement to our boy run program. Honestly I can't see how a PLC could keep up with only monthly meetings. Most loose interest after an hour. Most adults anyway. Sorry for the confusion Dan, does this help you? Barry

I might bring them together in relaxed atmosphere and just talk. Eventually one of them could bring the subject up and let it go from there. I might ask the counselor to call and to see if your son has questions. See where you son goes with that. I admire you asking because the MB program was designed with this in mind. Small steps toward man size confidence. I love this Scouting stuff. Barry

Great replies all, but my point is the few weak den leaders are the big problem in the numbers. I learned the hard way while I was trying a fix to this problem, you can have the best District Webelos to Scouts program in the world, but if don't find those weak dens who do little to be seen, you don't fix this problem. I'm open for other ideas, but I believe the Commissioner is the best practical solution for this problem because it is basically already their job. Other Districts developed huge Membership Committees to track Webelos, but I believe in simplicity and repeatability. The commissioner corp. is already out there. Let me ask you a question that might help friendlyduck and I beleive shemgren. A new commissioner might need a check list to determine if a den is really struggling. IF you had to give him THREE questions to check that the den is weak or failing, what would they be? Now be careful, I have ask this before and many responses were more to what a perfect den would look like. My new commissioner is only looking for the failing den. I will start. Average one den meeting a month. No outside activities. No camping or any future plans for it. Barry

This makes sense. I was told that the real purpose of the Tour permits is a check list. It gives the unit guidelines for making sure everything has been taken care of for a safe trip. Not having a permit does not disqualify the Scouting insurance. When I learned this, I developed more respect for the permit because I found it did help us to cross the "T"s and dot the "I"s. Can you verify this Bob? Barry

kwc57, youre dealing with tradition. Traditions are good because they add spirit to the program, but can be bad when it rides over common sense. Problem is most Cub leader dont see the big picture. Packs build their programs without insight to problems down the road. I cant complain, Cubbing is very hard work, I appreciate any program that goes the extra effort and wish more could. Still, you have the future success of your boys to think about. The way I see it, you have two concerns, loyalty to the pack, and registration dates. Its good you are thinking about this now so you have time educate your committee and work out some solutions. We get a few Webelos from packs that crossover late and our troop encourages them to start having their meetings with us. We give them a Troop Guide and treat them as a patrol. The only problem can be if the pack insists on waiting to get the AOL awards. You cant get the AOL if youre a boy scout. That is important. The sooner you sign up as a boy scout, the sooner the Troop Guides can start to sign off advancement. Our pack tried to have all AOLs and ceremonies done by January if possible to prevent a conflict. Even if the pack wont give the AOL, that is not a big problem. The main thing is to get your guys use to the troop program. After you point out the problem to the pack committee, suggest the campout moved to April or even late March. Our Pack did this and it worked fine. The weather is pretty good by then. Be very careful about filling out Scout Applications and don't give them to the Troop until you are ready to be officially be in the troop. You dont have to give them to the SM to sign off the AOL requirement. I have seen more problems by Troops turning applications before the packs apply for the AOL. It's a silly requirement that I've seen causes more confusion then good. I also try to warn the Den Leaders that they are the ones responsible for where and how their Scouts crossover. Packs and troops aren't always that organized and they can and will get it wrong, especially if they are following tradition. I would suggest your den start visiting Troops now. Ask for the four best in your area. Get the visits out of they way so those requirements arn't holding up the scouts. Really you don't owe the pack anything except loyalty, so I would approach it that way. But like I said, Cubbing is hard work. Work with the committee so that everyone comes away feeling good about the solution. Look for a solution that is seen as better for the pack and more fun. Teach them so they are prepared for the following dens. I think you will find most troops with work with you, so it's getting the pack to understand. Truthfully I'm not to worried about your Scouts because you understand the situation of new scouts and what to do. That helps a lot. I am not sure I answered your question. Barry

Hi friendlyduck Love to know where that name came from. You have hit a very soft spot for me. I have watched and studied the Webelos crossover problem for several years. The problem is Webelos are bored out of their minds and they think boy scouts will be the same. I learned the problem is a Cub Scout structure problem. Oh I know we have discussions about cub leaders and troops not doing their fair share and there is some truth to those statements, but my observations are the big problem is the complexity of the Cub Scout program wearing out the adults. We get about three years from the average volunteer. Not just scouting, but church, sports and civic programs all have the same human factor problem of three years and we want a break. After that, other motivations like passion, stature and personal goals have to keep us going. I found that most of the scouts who dont crossover know it in the middle first year of Webelos because their program is not fun even then. They finish the second year because it is successful ending to a lot of time in the program. Some blame sports, band and other activities, but I only found that to be an excuse for boys who werent having fun. See the average bear leader is a female and most of them started at Tigers. In their third year they are looking for a break or at least slowing down, but when they look at the Webelos book, they see a new aggressive program of camping in the hot and cold whether, sleeping in uncomfortable sleeping bags on the hard ground. The activity badges require lots of outdoor activities and transportation. The program is design more toward male type activities and that is uncomfortable territory. I found that most of these leaders told the pack to find someone else but as is common for those us who where pack leaders, no one else stands up. So the bear leader is stuck either disbanding the den and disappointing a lot of families, or continuing. These leaders try hard at first, but the 20 activity badges alone become overwhelming and after awhile the program goes down hill. I have tried a few ideas to solve the problem, but I learned from districts with a 80% or higher crossover is you have to monitor each den and identify the weak dens as quickly as possible. Then you need to go in and help the leader. I believe the Commissioner Corp is perfect for this. IF they could check on the Webelos leader maybe once a month, I think they could quickly identify the leaders who have a boring program. Then the Commissioner could seek someone to help, I think a nearby Troop. The troop could get a few of the scout to teach a couple activity badges and take some burden off the leader. They could take these Webelos on a campout with the Webelos parents and maybe even give the Webelos leader a day off. The troop will fill in the fun. There are other things that will help too, I believe a little more Webelos training to help them learn how to use the parents on the Activity badges or maybe have two hour and half meetings a month. But if we could just first identify these weak dens, we would be 80% to solving the problem. The other 20% is easy. I believe the Commissioners are the angles we need for these Webelos. Did that help much? Barry