Eagledad

I think it's already past that point. The SPL should displine bad behavoir with the support and guidence of the SM. In the best case senerio the SPL should only ask for guidence in situations beyound his control or experience, but report all misbehavoir so the SM can work with those scouts. In this case, it seems the SM is not suporting the SPL. I would suggest the SPL write down some suggestions of punishments that he apply to bad behaver. He will also give the SM a report. This way the SPL is doing his job with the approval and guidence of the SM. You are right that there is no consistant expectation of disapline, so the scouts will push the boundaries until someone either gets hurt, or loose their temper and say something they regret. If the SPL consistantly punishes bad behavoir, eventally they will figure out that something will have to change. I would feel more comfortable that the SM is supporting the SPL and making sure the whole troop follows the SPLs lead. The SM needs to be consistant that he sits down with each scout for each occurance. Hope this helps. Barry

>>Remember that the 30-day rotation of leadership in the New Scout patrol is to give the new scouts an understanding of troop and patrol operation not to teach leadership. In this first year they need to be working on Tenderfoot to First Class. Leadership training begins with their first regular elected or appointed office.

>>I feel that this reflects badly on our troop, as several state representatives and public officials were there.

>>Tenderfoot to first class is designed to do as a team

>>Now, as I remember somewhere in my dark and long and mouldering past, if you see a problem and want to talk about it, you should also have a suggesiton for solving it.

I agree with BW, adults mistakenly measure their success by the advancement method. My personal observation is two factors attribute to the adults change in attitude. Female adult leaders and the BSA introduction of aged based patrols. When I say female, I really mean adults without the youth experience in boy scouts. There are men who fit in that category, but when we open the doors to female leaders, there was a huge influx of adults without youth scouting experience. Those of us with a lot of youth scouting brought took that experience with us into our programs. Much of what we remember is the fun part of scouting, the adventure. It wasnt about getting to first class in one year or getting to be a patrol leader. It was about setting up rabbit traps, fishing and running through the woods. It was about standing around the fire at night telling your deepest secrets, and your deepest fears. Many of us first learned about girls around those campfires from the older scouts. We learned about cars and what made them fast. I remember learning why the P-38 was such a wonderful WWII fighter. I remember the pain of divorce and the joy of winning top patrol. There is nothing like getting up in the morning cooking from the fire. We had Patrol Flags back then, big ones and we protected those flag almost with as much pride as the American flag. Our patrol cheers where loud, and patrol pride was deep. How do you teach such experiences to adults who missed that part of being a boy on a weekend adventure? We adults are self-serving and we tend to look at everything compared to the Jones next door. We work to raise our stature in the world because we have to feed our egos and bank accounts, even to just survive. For those of us who experienced boy scouts as a youth can balance our adult goals with the fun experiences of our boy hood. For those adults who dont have that balance, well they tend to measure the scouting experience with stature. In our adult world, we want to stand the tallest. Those who stand the tallest get the farthest in money and recognition. The Eagle is that golden ring for adults. It gets us into colleges and jobs that we might not get otherwise. If the golden ring makes us stand taller, well then a lot of golden rings make us look all the better. Now dont confuse my observation with not wanting females in scouting, I do. Many of the best leaders are women. I am a character-focused person and women certainly are great role models of character. Our scouts are better men from the examples of our women leaders. But I think we men need to talk more about our youth experience. Our troop has outstanding women leaders, but we talked a lot about the youth Boy Scout experience. Patience, your son will get there, let them first be boys, and then watch them grow. It works all the time, but we need patience. The other reason for the drive for Eagles is the BSA promotion of aged based patrols. New Boy Patrols (NBP), Regular Patrols (RP), and Venture Patrols (VP). While I believe the reasons behind the plan are noble, it forced adults to build a program that peaks between 13 and 14. A new leader only has to look at the SM Handbook or even the Patrol Leaders Handbook to see that scouts are divided into categories now. Join the troop, you stay with your friends for a year and get first class. Join the new patrol for a year or two, and then move to Venture. Its not hard to imagine that if the scout doesnt get Eagle by the time he gets to Venture Patrol, that it will be a up hill battle of time. Add the rumors of the three Gs Gas, Girls and Girls, its no wonder the adults get nervous. So the adult starts to focus on the 14-year age. After that, they will just do what it takes to keep the scouts, but at least he is an Eagle. Its rare now to hear a SM talk about his program in terms of loosing scouts at age 18. There is a rumor that the BSA is doing this on purpose to eventually change the troop program to be 10 to 14 year olds. But Ive only heard that rumor from Venturing adults. I hope not, that will destroy the boy run program. These two reasons are what I have observed encouraging an Eagle driven program and raise Eagle numbers. I think things are changing. We have two new female scoutmasters that I know pretty well. They both followed that one year first class program and Eagle to 14 plan when they started a few years ago, now they both want to do it differently. I think they will have as many Eagles as before, but this time they want to build those Eagles from the inside out. Today, my glass is half full. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I am not sure what your saying, but there are two very important points about dealing with adults; you have to make sure your intentions are honorable. That is so important because the internet doesn't allow us to look in your eyes. AND! you have to protect the kids. You have to protect my son. Barry

Hi LA Looking at this, and it's a bit confusing, I think the issue is you and your CM stepped on the toes of the CC and UC. Ignoring all the other facts you threw in, the real problem is the Tiger in the Bear den. Since you had no authority to allow the decision, this is really a CM situation. Now, your CC wants to take this to Council, I would let her. I would also encourage the CM to insist that the COH, District Commissioner, and District Chairman attend. The CC will present the facts and CM needs to defend the decision. No worrys there because the reason is families don't trust these adults. And now is the time to make sure this fact comes out. Once that is done, then it's time to ask the COH, District Chairman and Distrit Commish what else could they have done? The CC has solved your problem provided you make sure she does call the meeting. If done properly, everything will come out in this meeting and District will have to suggest changes. You just have to make sure the meeting with the Council (DE?) is set up. It sounds like what you have are a couple of busy bodies with no life except scouting. Good intentions, but can lead to to much selfserving desire to be important. You knock their crown around a little and they are lashing out. If this is the case, you need to look at them with compassion, not anger. They have set thenselves up for a big fall, and they will hurt. How can a program with intentions that are so good and simple get so complicated and painful? Good Luck Barry

Hi Bob Who needs correcting? These are the numbers the Last Frontier Council has been handing out since January. No one is perfect, but it's hard to imagine a Council being that careless. When does National put out their Eagle numbers? Barry

My older son waited eight months before he found time. I just went to an ECOH that was done at the Scout's house with only close family friends. There were only two scouters from his troop invited, the present SM, and the previous SM, me. It was a very relaxed and enjoyable time with a barbecue lunch. What I found most interesting was the guests felt very honored to be invited. It was a warm and personal ceremony. Barry

Hi LA Without really seeing the other side, its hard to give one solution. Here are a few things that need understanding. Its very easy to be popular at the district level when you volunteer and work hard on district projects and not be seen as a terrible leader at the unit level. We have purposely pushed adults to be more active at the District level just to get them out of our hair. Second, you have a responsibility to help your Cubs grow the best they can under the guidelines and training given to you. There is little the committee can change unless you are just out-right hurting the boys. But you should be willing to except guidence. Given that, you have to have fun and feel rewarded in your efforts. Other than the SM position, Den Leading was the hardest job I did in scouting. If you are to get your scouts through cubs, you need to pace yourself so that you dont loose enthusiasm before your second year of Webelos. There will always have to be some give in take in this program because adults are basically self-serving and usually the strongest adult wins. But too many times, the boys loose. Giving in sometimes makes you the big winner. But, before you make those bitter choices, call the District Commissioner as suggested earlier, and I would call the District Chairman as well. Dont call them emotionally in anger or frustration, but more on a fact-finding mission. Ask questions that lead them to answers, but also to asking you questions. Dont appear biased against any adult, but ask your questions and find out the facts, and their suggested solution. You will learn a lot about these adults, and they may learn a lot from you as well. But, you should not come off as trying to make changes, let change come from another source. However, this is a volunteer organization, and you never can predict how adults will act, or react. And like I said, maybe you will have to be the one to change. I was taught by a very wise woman my first year of scouting to start all my actions and thoughts with this phrase, THE BEST THING FOR THESE BOYS IS? Then proceed in that direction. Every time an adult says me, I or you. Restart the conversation with that phrase. I have changed the direction of many committee discussions with that phrase. Good luck, and press on. Your boys need you. Barry

Call Philmont. Don't know the number off hand, but a lot of Councils use to do them there. If you don't mind travel, the Last Frontier Council in Oklahoma has a one week course in July. Nothing like Oklahoma in July. I am sure Texas has one somewhere as well. Just start working your way east. As for differences in week ends or one week courses. It's a matter of taste and schedual. If you're looking to just get trained, I don't think you will find it matters too much. Barry

Hi All One suggestion I give to leaders of new troops is; if the adults expect the scouts to grow in their program, then the adults must grow even more so they don't limit the scouts opportunities. I have found that to be the major cause of weak older scout programs. I have had JASMs that were better leaders then some of the adults. When it comes to running a boy run troop, the only factor that gives the 55 year old the right to be the scoutmaster of the 17 year old scout is wisdom carved out by the hard experiences of life. Other than that, the 17 year old could be a scoutmaster. To the day we die, we require responsibilities that challenge our maturity and experiences for continued growth. The 18 year old leader deserves those same expectations, no less, no more. Troops with successful older scout programs usually treat those scouts as adults. A troop should feel honored to have an 18 year old man apply for an adult position. Barry

Hi Glenn I admire you troop working to improve the program with good adults. Could you give us your list of positives and negitives in this situation? First list advantages of getting this adult, then another list of without the him. Maybe the list will shine a different light on the needs of your program. Good luck. I siad it yesterday in a different thread, scouting is great until the adults get involved. Barry

Hi Glenn Seems like something is missing. I think the right action is obvious. One adult is forcing all the others to hesitate doing the right action. What is this power he holds over the committee? Do you need the Webelos or you don't get any new scouts? Were they already committed? Are you the only troop in town or are there others? It appears your committee knows what to do, why are they hesitating? Barry

Hmmm, this reminds me of the Wood Badge Patrol Leader who looked up Fox on the internet to get some ideas for her patrol. She was a little surprised by what popped up and said she couldn't use them in public. So I decided to look up Bob White and saw what I expected; Einstine, Beethoven, Benjamin Franklin, and Badon Powell. Not sure what the Fox problem was. Maybe they need more vegetables in their diet. Barry Bombing Bob White

Thank you for the kind words. I think this forum is a balance of ideas. The reason I suggested the CC in this case is because 123 already talked to the SM and didn't get an acceptible answer. The committee's view will likely give 123 a better understanding of the program, either by "we support the SM fully" or "maybe he didn't understand your question, let me ask him". It could even be, "you're not the first to appraoch us with this situation". The committee is suppose to let the SM run his program within the limits and guidelines issued by the BSA. They are also suppose to be seperated from the SM and his ASMs so that they have an objective opinion in situations like this one. Sometimes the SM is wrong and the committee should be the balance. But as we all know, it really depends on training and/or the desires of the adults. I have a saying, (Scouting is great until the adults get involved). If nothing else, the answer from the CC will help 123 determine his next move. Sounds like you have a great young man there 123. Have a good day. Barry

That's the same good advice I might give at first Mark, but if the family eventually views the adult as a frustrating wall for continuing scouting, then I would start by calling the committee chair. But one thing I've learned about program problems, volunteers are more willing to listen when you asks questions. "There is an appearance that my son isn't allowed to advance, can you help me understand how the program works?". "I've talked to the SM, but I don't understand his approach for my son. Can you explain it differently so I can understand better?" "My son is frustrated, his handbook says advance, yet he is asked to slow down, I'm not sure I understand. Can you help me so I can explain it to my son?" There are two sides to every story and approaching the situation from a curiosity point of view may enlighten a lot of people and lead to a calm solution, or understanding. Another troop might be the solution. I hope not. Good luck. Barry

Look for a western hat shop or a professional hat shop in your area and they can steam them to be more comfortable. Barry

All right, Mores scouts, JLT and a Fun program. Great goals and great vision. Does you SM know all this? Lets take one thing at a time. To get more scouts, you have to have a program that boys would like to join. If there is one word that boys want all the time, what is that word? That word is where you want your program to go. Do white water rafting, backpacking and a goof off campout get you that part of your program? Hmm. Next, you have to get boys to visit your Troop. How? Give these guys something they want. Webelos want activity badges, lots of them. If your troop spent two meetings in the fall teaching some activity badge for all the Webelos in your area, would they come? Will they like what the see? What makes your troop the one they want? Next JLT. There is a lot of ways to do this, find out what your District and Council offer. Put those on your calendar and get the committee and SM to approve and go go go. Now what else? Teach it yourself. Get with the Scoutmaster and look over the New Patrol Leaders Handbook and see how you guys can teach the basics of that book in one day. OK now here is the secret. Again what is it that every boy wants all the time? All your activities have to be that way. We had a saying in our Troop, if its not fun, loose it or change it. Make the Troop JLT something cool. Yes, they will have to learn how to run PLC and Patrol Corners. They need to learn how to use and agenda, roster and menus. But that can all be fun. Example is an all night movie night, or lock in at the YMCA. What ever, its got to be something fun. Dont loose sight of the goal of teaching junior leadership skills, but dont make it something you dread going too either. Scouting is a game with purpose. A game is fun, the purpose happens because they came. I love this Scouting stuff. Now for campouts, your troop is new. Start off with simple goals and a simple program, and then work toward the more challenging program. Example, plan the next campout at a local area doing something easy like knots and a five-mile hike. You and your SM need to focus on the scouts getting to the camp on time and together. You need to make sure there is an agenda and that you guys are following it. What about menus and food, cooking equipment? Is your Quartermaster in charge of loading the trailer? These are all simple task for an experienced troop, but yours is new and they need to learn. Teach them, build habits and traditions. Have PLC meetings and evaluate what youve done. Youre your PLC How did it go? Was it fun? Was everyone involved? WHAT CAN WE DO TO MAKE IT BETTER AND MORE FUN? Pick your easiest campouts and build up over the year. Set goals so you know if youre going the right direction. There are a thousand ways and ideas, I didnt even scratch the surface, but hopefully these suggestions get you started thinking in your direction. Im concerned that committee asking for so much so fast. How can you plan your next meeting, you next campout and the whole year all at once? Divide your task in smaller bites. Set meetings for certain task. One meeting for the Troop Meeting and campout, another for the annual planning. There was an idea of how to do your annual planning sent here a couple days ago under PLC Chat?. See if that model helps you. Now you need to understand that the BSA has set certain goals and guidelines for troops. You have to work toward their goals using their guidelines. lets understand your goals and the SM goals. If you dont have the SPL handbook, get it. For right now, look up Aims and Methods on the Internet. You will find the Three Aims of Scouting. Character, Citizenship and Fitness. Those are the SM goals for every scout. Not a big deal for you expect everything you do needs to have an outcome to one or more of those goals. The guidelines are basically your goals. They are the Eight Methods you should have seen when you looked of the Aims and Methods. Look closely, have you seen them before? Leadership, advancement, outdoors and uniform and so on. See the BSA doesnt just say youre and Troop, now go. They tell you to build your program using all the methods or tools. Each scout uses theses methods, there is no choice. What you do have a choice on is how and when to use those methods. So, I am suggesting that as long as you are working toward the Scoutmaster goals of character, citizenship and fitness in your meetings and campouts, he is a happy camper and will basically give you free reins. Yes, there are some limits to your activities. You have to do EVERYTHING within the Scout Law and Oath. That is the IDEALS method. So, let say you want to do a hiking campout, how can you achieve the Scoutmasters goals? Well the fitness part is already taken care of. What about citizenship? Hmmm, is there the possibility of a service project? Maybe you will pick up trash along side the road. Maybe you can clean up a local campsite. You could suggest doing a flag ceremony for the camp if they have one. I guess the word is serve in some way. Now Character. Character is learning a habit that makes us a better person. So that is on going but what about getting the scouts to make a roster and patrol agenda. Then following it. Or if they dont follow it, the fix what the problem is. How about scouts getting to opening on time. Or, dealing with difficult scouts without yelling or loosing control. Hopefully others will chime in. But remember, character is how you act when nobody is looking. How can you do that on a five-mile hike or campout? What else. Well if you are suppose to use the Eight methods. Lets figure how to use uniform and advancement. Hey, how about a scouts skills station at every mile at the hike. Or, how about a couple of adults or older scouts setting up a car wreck simulation where the scout walk on it and have to treat them. Then watch and teach how to do first aid. Many of those skills are advancement. Is this too much? Its like a fire hose coming at you. Maybe if you can just still a glass out, you can get a little of it. Read this and think a while. Then respond. Or better yet , send it to your PLC and let them make comments so you can respond. Let us know how it goes, have fun and good luck. Barry

Hi Nate Sounds like you have a lot on your plate. Let me suggest this, where do you see this troop a year from now. What is it you want the PLC doing. Just sit down and dream, no boundaries, no limitations, no restrictions from adults. You are the chief, the boss and the SM. Don't worry about what you think you can or can't do, just write a list of what you want your troop to be a year from now. Have fun with this list. It has to a fun troop doing cool things. It needs to be the coolest troop in the world. Don't show me the list yet, but let me know when you finish it. Barry

All new troops go trough this. What the SM needs to do is cut the topics and goals in bit size chunks. For example, don't ask for a years worth of activities, start with six months. And don't just ask for a calender of program. Plan in small parts, one at a time. Every patrol and the adults get six ideas. Start with building a list for monthly program themes. The SPL ask for one idea from each group and write them on a board for all to see. he continues around each group until everyone has given their six. Then ask for campout themes. Once your finished with those, ask for for camp sites or locations. The reason for the adult having a turn is so they can prime the pump with ideas. Once you have the three list, the SPL then ask each scout to pick his six favoites. The scout should be encourage to walk around the list discussing them. When each feels ready, he puts a mark next to the their six favorites. After they are all through, count the votes and you have your program themes, camping theme and locations. Next, put up calenders on the walls and have them pick which themes go to which months and where. When we went to breaking up the task, our Annual planning went from eights hours to three. Also, scouts don't have the experience of adults, they must have some kind of guideline or agenda for their meetings. The SPL Handbook has a good example, so give the SPL the book and teach him how to make the agenda before each meeting. His gaol goes from just doing a confusing meeting and seeing what they get done, to getting the agenda completed. Much easier gaol to start with. Adults should stay quiet with only the SM talking. In this case, I think the SM must help by asking questions that lead the SPL and PLC in a direction of thought and conversation. This is an art each SM has to develop. Hopefully this will help give give your SPL a start. Sounds like a fantastic kid. I like the chat room idea for several reasons. One it has it's own bonding of ideas and team work. It is a form of team communication which is second in difficulty only to delegating. And I always cheer a scout who thinks outside the box. I agree these guys still need to have normal meetings, but I would not throw water on any ideas intended to help productive meetings. You have a great start here. Nurture this start and everyone will grow from the experience. This is a wonderful time for you guys right now. Enjoy. Barry

Hmm, tough one. Respect has to be earned, so that is a long range plan. But, when working with scouts, you change bad behavoir with self motivation. First, I would make sure that everytime this happens in the troop, the SPL and/or the PLC deal with it as best they can. Fighting is outside of the scout law, so ask them to deal with the scouts and make sure they know you can advise on ways to do that. The next thing is that your main job as the SM is behavoir. You don't have to hide this, let the scouts know. Everytime they pull somethng like this, ask them to visit you where you can sit down and have a converstation. Ask them questions. Do you know what you did? How does that fit against the Scout Law. Do you know it's wrong, then why do you do it? The objective is get the scouts to admit what they are doing is wrong and that they need to change. Then have them set a gaol to make a change and let them go. It's not your job to punish, that is up to the PLC, but everytime these two scouts get out of line, have that little talk. Over and over, have the little talk. Man to man, not in anger, just asking the questions. I once had a scout, who was pretty persistant, finally ask me, "when are we going to quit having these meetings?". Then he answered his own question, until I change or quit the troop, right? Sharp scout. Make sure what ever you, do not deal with the situation with emotion. If you feel anger, tell the scout to go sit somewhere and you will come get them when you are ready. If you need more time, ask the scout to call his parents. In this case, ask the ASM to take his son home because he is a problem, that you and the SPL will deal with next week. After working with scouts like this for a couple of years, you will see your junior leaders do it the same way. Quietly, no yelling, and motivating the scouts with bad behavior to change. Good luck, behavoir is always a challenge. Barry

Good thoughts imascouter. I've learned for anything to be a tradition in a unit, it has to done three years, or three times. Your points are valid and I beleive what we need is something simple at the district level that can be repeated for three years. So, whatever your idea, make it happen three times and you will to a measurble degree accomplished your task. With that in mind, one idea is motivate all the troops to take on an activity badge for a couple of weeks in the Spring or Fall so that the Packs get use to visiting troops for a few badges. Designed correctly, one Den probably could get three or four during that time while at the same time visiting the troops, seeing boy run in action, Troop adults talking to Webelos parents, and giving the Den Leader a well deserved break. As for who's in charge. The SPL with the resources of his PLC and adult leaders can do the job. The hard part is encouraging the idea to the all Troops so that it becomes a District tradition. The packs will go the path of least resistance. Good points imascouter. Barry

Very Cool! Barry