Eagledad

Hi Again I'm not sure we are to the "lack thereof" place. I'm just trying to learn how your troop can work. A couple questions from your last post: 1.You said you get calls out to the patrol leaders for input, how many patrol leaders do you have? 2.Does the SM help you run the meetings or do you write your own agenda and run it yourself? 3.Who thinks up the activities, just the SM? Do you have an annual planning meeting and who attends that if you do have one? 4.What kind of activities do you all do? Campout every month? Any High Advernture type stuff and where? Where do you go to summer camp? You describe a very interesting troop and it must have something going for it if so many scouts enjoy the program. Thanks for you input. Barry

Hi Chucklehead. I have to say, you bring to light a different sort of Troop. I know you said there are other troops like yours, but Ive not seen one. If you wouldnt mind, could you tell me a little more about your program? The original design of a troop is actually a group of patrols, not the other way around. The intent was putting a small manageable group of boys together to practice real life lessons of leadership, follow-ship, teamwork, democracy, diplomacy and compassion. One definition of leadership is motivating the group to accomplish a common task. It sounds to me like what you have is a gigantic patrol, not a troop without patrols. I see nothing wrong with your program anymore than a small troop of eight scouts running the same program. What I dont see is how you can do it without the adults running the program sort of like a Cub Scout pack. I am sure you arent running an over-aged Cub Pack, but this is where you can help me understand better. The ideal patrol is about eight scouts give or take a few depending on the abilities and experience of the scouts. There are several studies that show even adults cant manage or lead more than 12 to 15 people without loosing efficiency and maintaining a positive attitude in the group. That is why a leadership structure in most companies is design so that managers directly work with a small group of workers and other managers. Anymore than that and you loose the ability to understand and hear the folks you lead. You become less of leader who motivates through positive teamwork and use more of a dictator type leadership to accomplish your task. While there are appropriate times for dictator type leadership, it is not appropriate when it means intimidating or forcing someone against their will for your satisfaction. Here is what I cant see in your troop. HOW do you guys get your troop organized to start a meeting. In our Troop the SPL tells his patrol leaders to get their patrols together and give their attention to the SPL. Our SPL doesnt have to yell, he only needs to ask his leaders to do their job and get their patrols attention. In fact in most cases, we see yelling as a sign of failing leadership. We have an active troop of about 60 scouts, so its about the same as yours. In our troop, you will not see the adults help the SPL because they dont belong in any of the scouts patrols. The adults dont put up their sign until the SPL puts his up. I am trying to imagine how you get your 60 scouts attention without patrol leaders to help you. In your words, paint me a picture of you getting the attention of 60 scouts and starting the meeting. Who are your helpers? Where are the adults and do they help you start and run the meeting? How do you keep control? Im very interested. That will help me understand your program a lot. One other thing, you said the goal of scouting is to teach new skills and divide the cream of the crop from the garbage. What does that mean? It is true that four percent of the population are natural leaders while the rest are instinctively followers. But scouting is one of the few programs in our society where a boy can be from that 96 percent of followers and still become a great leader. Is that what you mean or do you have a different idea of scouting and leadership. Hey thanks for teaching me about your troop. It very interesting to say the least and maybe we can all learn something from your program. Barry

It sounds great. We started about the same way several years ago and eventually developed two JLTs, a Patrol Leaders Development and a short Leader Specific training. We do a Patrol leaders Development course once a year for any scout who wants to be a leader in the PLC. This is very much like yours and is planned and ran by the older scouts. The only requirement for this course is firstclass rank and the scouts only take it once. Our other course is a three hour course we do after each election. Every one in the PLC is required to attend. The first hour is a review of the leadership positions and the responsibilities that go with them. The second hour is with their counselor where they discuss the socuts responsibilities and set at least three goals that usually work toward the SPL's goals. The third hour is a PLC meeting and time where the SM and SPL speak on leadership. Lately our SM has asked the adults to attend this part of the training to explain Aims and Methods and who is responsibile for them. The advantage of the the three hour course is scouts don't mind repeating the course because it's short, they learn new skills required for their job and they usually have a lockin after. I really enjoyed your post KS. Sounds like a great troop. Barry

Hi Chucklehead, just wondering what do you think Patrol Method is? You were elected SPL, so you have some form of it. What part of Patrol method do you not like, and why? Barry

I guess I see a different problem here. Where was the support of the committee for these leaders? When it comes to being a leader in the scout program, there will always be the unexpected whether it' skits, off color jokes, scouts not running a meeting correctly or even just the way they cook. When a situation where one adult pulls rank on the leadership to the point of upsetting the program, the unit leaders need to come together quickly to resolve the problem. Even if that adult was right, it brought the wrong results because the situation was handled wrong. If your unit adults don't work as a group of one, you will loose good leaders who don't need to put up with that guff for giving one hour a week. I entered a discussion on this forum about the expectations of adult leaders in a unit. I said something about who would allow someone well known in the pornagraphy industry and I was surprised to read someone say that it really depends of the pornagraphy. While this Oklahoma grown God loving boy doesn't really see a gray area here, he is right to some degree. What is offensive to you may not be at all to me. Just look at the comments on this subject. Your unit needs the support of the group to make sure the program follows a standard that all leaders are willing to support when the unexpected happens, and it will happen, a lot. If adults don't agree with your program, they have choices. I have seen it work in some very tough situations. Scouting is hard, and we don't always see eye to eye, but we can learn to handle tough situations by getting together and dealing with them as a team. When an adult or scout decides to behave badly in the wrong place, one adult may be doing the talking, but that person sure better have the unit standing behind ready to give support. Such persons are not as common as you would think. I hope the committee calls these two leaders and ask them to come back with a promise of support. Barry

This sounds to me like the next step going toward those changes you were wanting to make in your District that you talked about a few months ago. I have this strange feeling that this is just the next step in bigger things to come. Best of luck to you. I love this scouting stuff Barry

Hi Many times its the adults that limit change and growth in scouts and program. I've watched our present SM struggling with how to encourage a boy run troop without letting the failure go to far. I believe boy run works best when you can get the scouts to put their dreams into actions. Our culture doesn't allow our youth to dream, much less live them out. But the scouting program is different that if the adults get out of the way, dreams can come true. Your first challenge is to let the scouts know it's OK to come up with some different and wild ideas. Our Troop sent a Venture Patrol to Alaska last year. That started out four years ago as a wild idea. Encourage your scouts to think outside the box and let them learn how to bring those dreams in the box, or pull the box out to the dream. I've also watched adults not let the scouts struggle enough. Have you ever watched a PLC meeting where the SPL stops to look at you for approval on some idea? He still doesn't trust that you will let him run the meeting and plan the program. He is trying to satisfy you, not the scouts. True, it's kind of a boy run program, but its only boy run to the point that you will let them do it. Try this, let them have a have a meeting to themselves. Tell them you will be working on something down the hall for questions, but you can't attend that meeting. Challenge them to plan a really cool program. They may not get far, but they will see you giving them full responsibility. Learn where they struggled and work with the SPL grow from there. Keep pushing for new ideas and let them do them. Eventually they will start to pull out some fun stuff that they see themselves planning and doing. They will start to see you as guide of character and leadership skills, not the program planner. And help them with other ideas, this is a wonderful place for new and different ideas. Either way, the adults will have to make the shift so the scouts have room to change. But I think while many adults find giving scouts more room uncomfortable, they also will find the rewards much greater. Hope this helps. Have a great Scouting week. Barry

I have had this and the best answer is feel out the patrol. If the patrol has some mature scouts who are willing to take over for the two months, they may want to do that and give the scout a chance when he gets back. If your patrol is mostly 12 year olds or younger, it's probably best to have another election. It's also important that you go over to the scout's home, or at least call him and explain that we all have priorities in life and this is the best thing for him right now. He will come back and no one will think the worst of him because everyone supports him. At this point, there shouldn't be anyone feelings blame or the scout may feel badly about the situation. After this happened to us, I created a contract for our youth leaders that explained the scouts responsibilities andommitments. The contract stated the times and places of the PLC meetings, patrol meetings, troop campouts and the responsibilities of the youth leaders to do the best they could to attend those meetings or make sure they call someone else to be at those meetings. It also stated how we are all in this together as a team and we needed to support each other the best we could, parents included. The scout and the parents had to sign the contract. This helped us a lot. Good luck, it's a tough situation for you, the patrol and the scout. Barry

Great responce Bob. I few other things I've heard from adults in Eagle mill type programs. Summer Camp and Merit Badge College are part of the Troop advancement program. Either you go or you don't advance. If the scout misses a scout skills class, he has to wait for another class before he can get that skill signed off. If a scout just shows up to a class, he gets signed off or earns the MB without really proving he learned the skill. Good stuff, Have a great week. Barry

I would dump the Venture patrol idea and add a section in the Scoutmaster Specific Class teaching adults how to encourage a program that is challenging and rewarding for all ages and maturities of scouts in their troop. Barry

I believe the JASM should have responsibilities that you would give to an adult, but not necessarily a scout. For example the JASM could help the Advancment Chairman keep up the records, plan the list for scouts going in the BOR. Maybe introduce the Scout to the BOR. He could make sure the SPL get the patches and who they belong too. The JASM could help Grubmasters find recipes, set up monthly cooking themes, train them in proper food health. You could help Life Scouts plan toward Eagle. I trust many of our older scouts more than some of the adults for planning Eagle projects. What ever your responsibilities, they should be challenging for your age, rewarding and a big help to the Troop. Just sitting down with the SM should be fun and what you start will go on to other scouts after you. Good luck on your new job. Barry

>>I believe it is very difficult for a 13 year old to see into the future (or even think past the next meal.

Hi All Last night one of our older scouts, who was our SPL two years ago, stopped me and told me that he has been working hard at student council but the efforts of the students have been block by the bad leadership of the adults. He looked at me and said, I just realized that most adults dont have the leadership skills that I learned in this Troop. He then said that he was running for next years Student Council President and was going to teach them how to be leaders. I felt the erg to tell him that those adults may not have the humility to see themselves in a youth run program like troop leaders. But I didnt, I think he already learn that this year. I did tell him now that he knows the secret that most adults arent great leaders, he is going to be their teacher for the rest of his life. This scout is also our Council JLTC Youth Director for our Fall course. My experiences in life have led me to believe that we are called to be where we are in life today. Its up to us to use that opportunity to serve. For those of us adults who love this scouting stuff, we are at the right place at the right time. I thank you for what you have done for our sons, and for what you will do. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Now, why ban group computation Eagledad?

>>However, there is nothing wrong with having fun for fun's sake either.

I live by the saying that Scouting is the Game with a Purpose. And I am one of those anal adults who seems to look for values in everything we do and my scouts know it to the point that I heard here he goes again a lot. In fact, I also encouraged scouts to challenge anything and everything in our program as a values building experience. If I couldn't justify it toward building character or citizenship, they could throw it out. Nothing was thrown out and the challenge forced me to learn how to apply everything we did in our Troop toward building habits that lead to better character. Now I know some here like to pick apart broad terms, so when I talk about character, I mean those habits that raise the level of values expected by men of integrity and moral decision making. Saying that, I know of packs that forbid any kind of group computation including pinewood derbies. I know packs that look to compete with other packs in soccer and baseball. Some troops discourage any kind of game that implies militant style activity, others have a dozen different versions of Capture the Flag and British Bulldog. We adults tend to direct or children by emotions formed by life experiences. Some of us guide out of fear, others out of pride or self-indulgence. Its hard to change those habits, but the scouting program works best when we take the emotion out and ask, how does this activity encourage habits of character in the boys? Sometimes its not so much that the activity has to have value as much as a reward for the actions behind the activities. Our PLC likes to have an all night lock in of video and computer games. Its a reward that with great benefits down the road. Learn the Guide to Safe Scouting and give it to your PLC. Most of the time, the scouts can and will limit their activities within the appropriate guidelines. The other limitations will more than likely come from the adults. Thats OK if the scouts understand the fears or values behind the adult restrictions. Its even better when the scouts agree. But while some rules are very clear, some restrictions can fall in that grey area, and thats when the wisdom of the master scouter needs to come in play. Thats when we have to measure the value of the game. Read the handbooks, get to know the BSA published material and practice applying values to your unit actions and activities. I think you will find that in many ways, you wont take away activities so much as you will make sure they are run with a purpose. And personally, I think that plain old fun has some positive value too. I know this seems like a wishy washy answer, but my real point is many times there isnt a right or wrong answer. Its going to be up to you to decide what values your scouts get from your limitations. Thats when understanding the Purpose of the Game is the most important. Thats what separates the adult leaders from the boys. Sorry this was long. I have been very busy and its hard to participate in the whole discussion. Have a great scouting day. Barry

Bad choice of words I guess. Controlling the situation if you want. Sending the scout home, sending out of the room to the SPL or SM, sending them off away from the group is a few of the methods of controlling the situation. Also our PLCs have asked the scout to write an oppolgy, with the parents approval. Depending on the circumstances, I have seen the PL ask the offending scout to help at KP or retrive water the rest of the campout to keep him busy when he contiues to be a problem. He may be asked to sit out an activity dependning on the problem and situation. Our point to the scouts is get them out of the situation so the leaders can continue their job and prevent further disruption. If a scout does something away from camp or hurts another scout, the SM will confere with other adults and the SPL. Thee SPL is usally included unless it is something we need to keep private. Punshment? Let's say motivation to change. It is interesting that I have get several request about disapline in every Scoutmaster Specific Class I have taught. One area that is lacking in todays BSA materal is down to earth suggestions for controlling behavoir. Oh there is some out there, but not near enough to answer the basic problems most unit leaders run into. I have not presented anything yet because it needs to be supported by BSA materal, I am seeking ideas from council, but they want me to lead and see where it goes. A chicken or the egg type thing. I think I'm the chicken. I won't use the word punish. Barry

I think it's already past that point. The SPL should displine bad behavoir with the support and guidence of the SM. In the best case senerio the SPL should only ask for guidence in situations beyound his control or experience, but report all misbehavoir so the SM can work with those scouts. In this case, it seems the SM is not suporting the SPL. I would suggest the SPL write down some suggestions of punishments that he apply to bad behaver. He will also give the SM a report. This way the SPL is doing his job with the approval and guidence of the SM. You are right that there is no consistant expectation of disapline, so the scouts will push the boundaries until someone either gets hurt, or loose their temper and say something they regret. If the SPL consistantly punishes bad behavoir, eventally they will figure out that something will have to change. I would feel more comfortable that the SM is supporting the SPL and making sure the whole troop follows the SPLs lead. The SM needs to be consistant that he sits down with each scout for each occurance. Hope this helps. Barry

>>Remember that the 30-day rotation of leadership in the New Scout patrol is to give the new scouts an understanding of troop and patrol operation not to teach leadership. In this first year they need to be working on Tenderfoot to First Class. Leadership training begins with their first regular elected or appointed office.

>>I feel that this reflects badly on our troop, as several state representatives and public officials were there.

>>Tenderfoot to first class is designed to do as a team

>>Now, as I remember somewhere in my dark and long and mouldering past, if you see a problem and want to talk about it, you should also have a suggesiton for solving it.

I agree with BW, adults mistakenly measure their success by the advancement method. My personal observation is two factors attribute to the adults change in attitude. Female adult leaders and the BSA introduction of aged based patrols. When I say female, I really mean adults without the youth experience in boy scouts. There are men who fit in that category, but when we open the doors to female leaders, there was a huge influx of adults without youth scouting experience. Those of us with a lot of youth scouting brought took that experience with us into our programs. Much of what we remember is the fun part of scouting, the adventure. It wasnt about getting to first class in one year or getting to be a patrol leader. It was about setting up rabbit traps, fishing and running through the woods. It was about standing around the fire at night telling your deepest secrets, and your deepest fears. Many of us first learned about girls around those campfires from the older scouts. We learned about cars and what made them fast. I remember learning why the P-38 was such a wonderful WWII fighter. I remember the pain of divorce and the joy of winning top patrol. There is nothing like getting up in the morning cooking from the fire. We had Patrol Flags back then, big ones and we protected those flag almost with as much pride as the American flag. Our patrol cheers where loud, and patrol pride was deep. How do you teach such experiences to adults who missed that part of being a boy on a weekend adventure? We adults are self-serving and we tend to look at everything compared to the Jones next door. We work to raise our stature in the world because we have to feed our egos and bank accounts, even to just survive. For those of us who experienced boy scouts as a youth can balance our adult goals with the fun experiences of our boy hood. For those adults who dont have that balance, well they tend to measure the scouting experience with stature. In our adult world, we want to stand the tallest. Those who stand the tallest get the farthest in money and recognition. The Eagle is that golden ring for adults. It gets us into colleges and jobs that we might not get otherwise. If the golden ring makes us stand taller, well then a lot of golden rings make us look all the better. Now dont confuse my observation with not wanting females in scouting, I do. Many of the best leaders are women. I am a character-focused person and women certainly are great role models of character. Our scouts are better men from the examples of our women leaders. But I think we men need to talk more about our youth experience. Our troop has outstanding women leaders, but we talked a lot about the youth Boy Scout experience. Patience, your son will get there, let them first be boys, and then watch them grow. It works all the time, but we need patience. The other reason for the drive for Eagles is the BSA promotion of aged based patrols. New Boy Patrols (NBP), Regular Patrols (RP), and Venture Patrols (VP). While I believe the reasons behind the plan are noble, it forced adults to build a program that peaks between 13 and 14. A new leader only has to look at the SM Handbook or even the Patrol Leaders Handbook to see that scouts are divided into categories now. Join the troop, you stay with your friends for a year and get first class. Join the new patrol for a year or two, and then move to Venture. Its not hard to imagine that if the scout doesnt get Eagle by the time he gets to Venture Patrol, that it will be a up hill battle of time. Add the rumors of the three Gs Gas, Girls and Girls, its no wonder the adults get nervous. So the adult starts to focus on the 14-year age. After that, they will just do what it takes to keep the scouts, but at least he is an Eagle. Its rare now to hear a SM talk about his program in terms of loosing scouts at age 18. There is a rumor that the BSA is doing this on purpose to eventually change the troop program to be 10 to 14 year olds. But Ive only heard that rumor from Venturing adults. I hope not, that will destroy the boy run program. These two reasons are what I have observed encouraging an Eagle driven program and raise Eagle numbers. I think things are changing. We have two new female scoutmasters that I know pretty well. They both followed that one year first class program and Eagle to 14 plan when they started a few years ago, now they both want to do it differently. I think they will have as many Eagles as before, but this time they want to build those Eagles from the inside out. Today, my glass is half full. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

I am not sure what your saying, but there are two very important points about dealing with adults; you have to make sure your intentions are honorable. That is so important because the internet doesn't allow us to look in your eyes. AND! you have to protect the kids. You have to protect my son. Barry

Hi LA Looking at this, and it's a bit confusing, I think the issue is you and your CM stepped on the toes of the CC and UC. Ignoring all the other facts you threw in, the real problem is the Tiger in the Bear den. Since you had no authority to allow the decision, this is really a CM situation. Now, your CC wants to take this to Council, I would let her. I would also encourage the CM to insist that the COH, District Commissioner, and District Chairman attend. The CC will present the facts and CM needs to defend the decision. No worrys there because the reason is families don't trust these adults. And now is the time to make sure this fact comes out. Once that is done, then it's time to ask the COH, District Chairman and Distrit Commish what else could they have done? The CC has solved your problem provided you make sure she does call the meeting. If done properly, everything will come out in this meeting and District will have to suggest changes. You just have to make sure the meeting with the Council (DE?) is set up. It sounds like what you have are a couple of busy bodies with no life except scouting. Good intentions, but can lead to to much selfserving desire to be important. You knock their crown around a little and they are lashing out. If this is the case, you need to look at them with compassion, not anger. They have set thenselves up for a big fall, and they will hurt. How can a program with intentions that are so good and simple get so complicated and painful? Good Luck Barry