Eagledad

Good Day all I got a call one late night from a friend. He said our Cub Pack that our wives were Den Leaders in was splitting and if I would Cub Master of one pack, he would take the other and we would work together to make sure we had even split of leaders since neither one of us had any experience. I said no but my wife told him yes. A week later another adult called and said he was the new CM of the other pack and he followed with the list of how the pack split. Out of the ten dens, I got one experienced leader. Of course the story goes that I was dragged kicking and screaming into a wonderful program that I have reaped many wonderful rewards. But I was hurt by the trick from my friend. Wounds do heal and water does pass under the bridge. The wife of that so-called-friend is our Troop Committee Chair and we both love this scouting stuff. God does have a strange way of getting his way. Barry

Hi All I want to be careful and start out that I am not defending aged balanced patrols over aged based patrols. I'm speaking from our experiences. How ever you choose to run your troop, it should be based from what you want your sons get out of the program. Every mature unit has frustrations of older scouts being led by 12-year-old Patrol Leaders because it requires patience and compassion when the thrill of adventure is just over the hill. But gaining happiness from thrills is usually short lived where self-fulfillment from service to other is long term. It would be rare that a 12 year old would be a Patrol leader in a mature age balanced patrol. In fact, it wasn't until our troop started Venture Patrols that our other patrols started electing 12 and 13-year-old patrol leaders. The older scouts were gone and the maturity of leadership fell, a lot. It is also true that in an mature age balance patrol type program your older or oldest scouts are typically the troop senior leaders and are use to younger patrol leaders because that is how leadership development works in the program. By the way, there were older scout patrols before Venture patrols were introduced, it's just they usually were the senior leadership scouts. Not high adventure. There have been aged based patrols around since Scouting Started. They just were not the norm and not encouraged by the BSA until recently. So you have to ask, how did age balanced patrols make it up to this point? The answer is the adults. If you have a troop where in general the older scouts are having trouble with younger scouts, odds are it's because without knowing it, the adults are allowing that attitude, and may even be encouraging it. We've had a couple adults like that in our troop. One left to start a Venturing Crew and now admits he wanted to get away from the younger scouts so he could do more high adventure. National encourages aged based patrols now, so there is nothing wrong with that type of Troop. But if you are doing it because the adults think older scouts can't or don't work well with younger scouts, then the adults are the problem. Don't underestimate or box in our young people. One reason I am so strong toward aged balanced patrols is because these young men can and do learn to enjoy working with each other. But that attitude does have to start with the adults. As I said earlier, we adults seem to have low expectations of older scouts anymore. Have a great Scouting day. Barry

>>The goal of a troop is not to have evenly balanced (except for pure numbers) patrols. I remember when I was seventeen, my idea of a good time was not hanging around with 11 and 12 year old boys.

This is a great question. I've had thoughts of trying something like a Green Bar Patrol. All the SPLs would have a meeting where the Green Bar Patrol leader would be handout the same district information and annoucements that SMs normally receive, and then do a little JLTC leadership development. Then they would meet with the SMs to learn ideas for program. Hope we get more great ideas. Great subject J. Barry

I must admit I have too much time on my hands to reply to this thread. But not to long ago someone asked what does a person do to get re-energized for that one hour a week. For me the uniform in scouting is a tool of pride and discipline for the boys. But it's only a tool. While many struggle with how to wear the uniform because they don't want to be in "violation" of the code, I see the code as a guideline to look uniform. No more or no less than the guideline the scouts have in their handbook. "Violation" seems such a harsh word for the adult who gives fives hours for that one hour a week and does so because passion drives him or her to do it. While I was SM, I asked adults set the example by wearing a full uniform properly. How strict do I have to be for that request? I explain to our adults, role modeling is 90% of building men from boys. Wearing uniform is easy compared to behaving properly 100% of the time. But how concerned can one be if the adult wears his nametag on the wrong side of the shirt or a patch wrong? One poster says he has never seen an adult ask to change his uniform when worn incorrectly, but I have seen one chewed out in front of many for just that nametag. For me the uniform is just a tool for building character. That combined with my personal philosophy of: the main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing. I am not saying that adults shouldn't set the example and follow the code. Heavens no, I know that setting the example is the most important for building character in boys. But for some strange reason, I feel hurt that mk9750 shouldn't show his passion for the scouting game. Given the choice of adult who I want my scouts modeling from, an excited mk9750 who expresses the love of scouting even in his jacket, or the grouchy old guy who embarrassed the SM in front of the whole District, I choose mk9750. A few years ago I was walking our Council Scout show and noticed a one legged SM also wearing a wooden peg leg. The peg leg was obviously carved out by hand and it had what looked like a million signatures on it. I asked the SM about it and he said it was his Scouting leg he wore while scoutmastering. He along with the scouts in his troop carved it out of a tree limb, and he lets any scout willing sign it. How cool it that? I over heard him tell another adult he doesnt wear that leg at Wood Badge. Its hard for me to explain the fuel of my passion when some nobody says, its just boy scouts for goodness sake. But in a discussion like this, I want to yell, Hey, this is Boy Scouts for goodness sake. Not to simplify our program, but to bring back the focus of why we do the scouting thing. How do we keep the flame of passion lit when the five hours we cram in the one-hour a week feels like 20? I think you have put scouting on. We all do it in different ways, but there is something we do that makes us feel good about ourselves when we are scouting. I am not one who shows my passion on the uniform. I have a lot more knots waiting to be sewed on than already on my shirt. I have a smoky bear hat Ive never worn and I dont have the Red Jackshirt yet. But Im going to Philmont this year and I have to sew that bull on something. Still, I like to set a quiet example and red is not quiet. I do like other adults wearing them. I like them wearing patches. I love the staves adults take with them everywhere. I believe every troop needs a peg leg, or something like it if you know what I mean. There needs to be at least one adult who wears that boyish excitement of scouting. We need the adult that every boy counts on to reflect that romance that most of us feel when we go scouting. Should we adults wear the full uniform properly? You bet, as a preacher of the Three Aims, role modeling is the most important for me. Should we hide our emotions and passion when they appear in violation? Well thats hard to say. We each have our own drive to be a scouter. We sacrifice, we endure, and we give our all. We have the love of scouting that most cant understand, except the Scout. The scouts can see it. They still have an eye for adventure and boyhood glamour. They know the adult who works scouting, and the one who wear it. Do we sometimes punish the passion needlessly? I dont know why this subject seemed to disappoint me so much. But maybe it was the choice of not showing off a million signatures to the adult patrols in a Wood Badge course. And I wonder if maybe we adults can sometimes be too adult even in uniform. I guess I want to say the main thing is to keep the main thing, the main thing. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Given a choice of being with friends or going to a better program, nine out of ten boys will choose friends. I've had a few scouts like this and they do fine and actually do better than at school because the scouting program encourages a scouts to grow at his pace, not the expectations of others. When allowed, we humans excel toward what makes us feel good about ourselves. If the adults are willing, he will do fine. I like to tell our adult leaders that we are doing OK when a boy goes home saying "I like myself when I'm with the Troop". I love scouting stuff. Barry

>>I believe what was waged here was that people disliked the ways our troop does things

Cool! Your troop doesn't sound so different from ours. You said that you do JLT type training. How often do you do it? Do you give your Patrol leaders any kind of specail training for their job? If you do, who does the training? I'm guessing you meet once a week. Our basic meeting agenda goes something like this; Opening Patrol Corners Program Game Closeing and SM Minute How does your meeting agenda look? Where are your crews going next? Barry

Hi Again I'm not sure we are to the "lack thereof" place. I'm just trying to learn how your troop can work. A couple questions from your last post: 1.You said you get calls out to the patrol leaders for input, how many patrol leaders do you have? 2.Does the SM help you run the meetings or do you write your own agenda and run it yourself? 3.Who thinks up the activities, just the SM? Do you have an annual planning meeting and who attends that if you do have one? 4.What kind of activities do you all do? Campout every month? Any High Advernture type stuff and where? Where do you go to summer camp? You describe a very interesting troop and it must have something going for it if so many scouts enjoy the program. Thanks for you input. Barry

Hi Chucklehead. I have to say, you bring to light a different sort of Troop. I know you said there are other troops like yours, but Ive not seen one. If you wouldnt mind, could you tell me a little more about your program? The original design of a troop is actually a group of patrols, not the other way around. The intent was putting a small manageable group of boys together to practice real life lessons of leadership, follow-ship, teamwork, democracy, diplomacy and compassion. One definition of leadership is motivating the group to accomplish a common task. It sounds to me like what you have is a gigantic patrol, not a troop without patrols. I see nothing wrong with your program anymore than a small troop of eight scouts running the same program. What I dont see is how you can do it without the adults running the program sort of like a Cub Scout pack. I am sure you arent running an over-aged Cub Pack, but this is where you can help me understand better. The ideal patrol is about eight scouts give or take a few depending on the abilities and experience of the scouts. There are several studies that show even adults cant manage or lead more than 12 to 15 people without loosing efficiency and maintaining a positive attitude in the group. That is why a leadership structure in most companies is design so that managers directly work with a small group of workers and other managers. Anymore than that and you loose the ability to understand and hear the folks you lead. You become less of leader who motivates through positive teamwork and use more of a dictator type leadership to accomplish your task. While there are appropriate times for dictator type leadership, it is not appropriate when it means intimidating or forcing someone against their will for your satisfaction. Here is what I cant see in your troop. HOW do you guys get your troop organized to start a meeting. In our Troop the SPL tells his patrol leaders to get their patrols together and give their attention to the SPL. Our SPL doesnt have to yell, he only needs to ask his leaders to do their job and get their patrols attention. In fact in most cases, we see yelling as a sign of failing leadership. We have an active troop of about 60 scouts, so its about the same as yours. In our troop, you will not see the adults help the SPL because they dont belong in any of the scouts patrols. The adults dont put up their sign until the SPL puts his up. I am trying to imagine how you get your 60 scouts attention without patrol leaders to help you. In your words, paint me a picture of you getting the attention of 60 scouts and starting the meeting. Who are your helpers? Where are the adults and do they help you start and run the meeting? How do you keep control? Im very interested. That will help me understand your program a lot. One other thing, you said the goal of scouting is to teach new skills and divide the cream of the crop from the garbage. What does that mean? It is true that four percent of the population are natural leaders while the rest are instinctively followers. But scouting is one of the few programs in our society where a boy can be from that 96 percent of followers and still become a great leader. Is that what you mean or do you have a different idea of scouting and leadership. Hey thanks for teaching me about your troop. It very interesting to say the least and maybe we can all learn something from your program. Barry

It sounds great. We started about the same way several years ago and eventually developed two JLTs, a Patrol Leaders Development and a short Leader Specific training. We do a Patrol leaders Development course once a year for any scout who wants to be a leader in the PLC. This is very much like yours and is planned and ran by the older scouts. The only requirement for this course is firstclass rank and the scouts only take it once. Our other course is a three hour course we do after each election. Every one in the PLC is required to attend. The first hour is a review of the leadership positions and the responsibilities that go with them. The second hour is with their counselor where they discuss the socuts responsibilities and set at least three goals that usually work toward the SPL's goals. The third hour is a PLC meeting and time where the SM and SPL speak on leadership. Lately our SM has asked the adults to attend this part of the training to explain Aims and Methods and who is responsibile for them. The advantage of the the three hour course is scouts don't mind repeating the course because it's short, they learn new skills required for their job and they usually have a lockin after. I really enjoyed your post KS. Sounds like a great troop. Barry

Hi Chucklehead, just wondering what do you think Patrol Method is? You were elected SPL, so you have some form of it. What part of Patrol method do you not like, and why? Barry

I guess I see a different problem here. Where was the support of the committee for these leaders? When it comes to being a leader in the scout program, there will always be the unexpected whether it' skits, off color jokes, scouts not running a meeting correctly or even just the way they cook. When a situation where one adult pulls rank on the leadership to the point of upsetting the program, the unit leaders need to come together quickly to resolve the problem. Even if that adult was right, it brought the wrong results because the situation was handled wrong. If your unit adults don't work as a group of one, you will loose good leaders who don't need to put up with that guff for giving one hour a week. I entered a discussion on this forum about the expectations of adult leaders in a unit. I said something about who would allow someone well known in the pornagraphy industry and I was surprised to read someone say that it really depends of the pornagraphy. While this Oklahoma grown God loving boy doesn't really see a gray area here, he is right to some degree. What is offensive to you may not be at all to me. Just look at the comments on this subject. Your unit needs the support of the group to make sure the program follows a standard that all leaders are willing to support when the unexpected happens, and it will happen, a lot. If adults don't agree with your program, they have choices. I have seen it work in some very tough situations. Scouting is hard, and we don't always see eye to eye, but we can learn to handle tough situations by getting together and dealing with them as a team. When an adult or scout decides to behave badly in the wrong place, one adult may be doing the talking, but that person sure better have the unit standing behind ready to give support. Such persons are not as common as you would think. I hope the committee calls these two leaders and ask them to come back with a promise of support. Barry

This sounds to me like the next step going toward those changes you were wanting to make in your District that you talked about a few months ago. I have this strange feeling that this is just the next step in bigger things to come. Best of luck to you. I love this scouting stuff Barry

Hi Many times its the adults that limit change and growth in scouts and program. I've watched our present SM struggling with how to encourage a boy run troop without letting the failure go to far. I believe boy run works best when you can get the scouts to put their dreams into actions. Our culture doesn't allow our youth to dream, much less live them out. But the scouting program is different that if the adults get out of the way, dreams can come true. Your first challenge is to let the scouts know it's OK to come up with some different and wild ideas. Our Troop sent a Venture Patrol to Alaska last year. That started out four years ago as a wild idea. Encourage your scouts to think outside the box and let them learn how to bring those dreams in the box, or pull the box out to the dream. I've also watched adults not let the scouts struggle enough. Have you ever watched a PLC meeting where the SPL stops to look at you for approval on some idea? He still doesn't trust that you will let him run the meeting and plan the program. He is trying to satisfy you, not the scouts. True, it's kind of a boy run program, but its only boy run to the point that you will let them do it. Try this, let them have a have a meeting to themselves. Tell them you will be working on something down the hall for questions, but you can't attend that meeting. Challenge them to plan a really cool program. They may not get far, but they will see you giving them full responsibility. Learn where they struggled and work with the SPL grow from there. Keep pushing for new ideas and let them do them. Eventually they will start to pull out some fun stuff that they see themselves planning and doing. They will start to see you as guide of character and leadership skills, not the program planner. And help them with other ideas, this is a wonderful place for new and different ideas. Either way, the adults will have to make the shift so the scouts have room to change. But I think while many adults find giving scouts more room uncomfortable, they also will find the rewards much greater. Hope this helps. Have a great Scouting week. Barry

I have had this and the best answer is feel out the patrol. If the patrol has some mature scouts who are willing to take over for the two months, they may want to do that and give the scout a chance when he gets back. If your patrol is mostly 12 year olds or younger, it's probably best to have another election. It's also important that you go over to the scout's home, or at least call him and explain that we all have priorities in life and this is the best thing for him right now. He will come back and no one will think the worst of him because everyone supports him. At this point, there shouldn't be anyone feelings blame or the scout may feel badly about the situation. After this happened to us, I created a contract for our youth leaders that explained the scouts responsibilities andommitments. The contract stated the times and places of the PLC meetings, patrol meetings, troop campouts and the responsibilities of the youth leaders to do the best they could to attend those meetings or make sure they call someone else to be at those meetings. It also stated how we are all in this together as a team and we needed to support each other the best we could, parents included. The scout and the parents had to sign the contract. This helped us a lot. Good luck, it's a tough situation for you, the patrol and the scout. Barry

Great responce Bob. I few other things I've heard from adults in Eagle mill type programs. Summer Camp and Merit Badge College are part of the Troop advancement program. Either you go or you don't advance. If the scout misses a scout skills class, he has to wait for another class before he can get that skill signed off. If a scout just shows up to a class, he gets signed off or earns the MB without really proving he learned the skill. Good stuff, Have a great week. Barry

I would dump the Venture patrol idea and add a section in the Scoutmaster Specific Class teaching adults how to encourage a program that is challenging and rewarding for all ages and maturities of scouts in their troop. Barry

I believe the JASM should have responsibilities that you would give to an adult, but not necessarily a scout. For example the JASM could help the Advancment Chairman keep up the records, plan the list for scouts going in the BOR. Maybe introduce the Scout to the BOR. He could make sure the SPL get the patches and who they belong too. The JASM could help Grubmasters find recipes, set up monthly cooking themes, train them in proper food health. You could help Life Scouts plan toward Eagle. I trust many of our older scouts more than some of the adults for planning Eagle projects. What ever your responsibilities, they should be challenging for your age, rewarding and a big help to the Troop. Just sitting down with the SM should be fun and what you start will go on to other scouts after you. Good luck on your new job. Barry

>>I believe it is very difficult for a 13 year old to see into the future (or even think past the next meal.

Hi All Last night one of our older scouts, who was our SPL two years ago, stopped me and told me that he has been working hard at student council but the efforts of the students have been block by the bad leadership of the adults. He looked at me and said, I just realized that most adults dont have the leadership skills that I learned in this Troop. He then said that he was running for next years Student Council President and was going to teach them how to be leaders. I felt the erg to tell him that those adults may not have the humility to see themselves in a youth run program like troop leaders. But I didnt, I think he already learn that this year. I did tell him now that he knows the secret that most adults arent great leaders, he is going to be their teacher for the rest of his life. This scout is also our Council JLTC Youth Director for our Fall course. My experiences in life have led me to believe that we are called to be where we are in life today. Its up to us to use that opportunity to serve. For those of us adults who love this scouting stuff, we are at the right place at the right time. I thank you for what you have done for our sons, and for what you will do. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Now, why ban group computation Eagledad?

>>However, there is nothing wrong with having fun for fun's sake either.

I live by the saying that Scouting is the Game with a Purpose. And I am one of those anal adults who seems to look for values in everything we do and my scouts know it to the point that I heard here he goes again a lot. In fact, I also encouraged scouts to challenge anything and everything in our program as a values building experience. If I couldn't justify it toward building character or citizenship, they could throw it out. Nothing was thrown out and the challenge forced me to learn how to apply everything we did in our Troop toward building habits that lead to better character. Now I know some here like to pick apart broad terms, so when I talk about character, I mean those habits that raise the level of values expected by men of integrity and moral decision making. Saying that, I know of packs that forbid any kind of group computation including pinewood derbies. I know packs that look to compete with other packs in soccer and baseball. Some troops discourage any kind of game that implies militant style activity, others have a dozen different versions of Capture the Flag and British Bulldog. We adults tend to direct or children by emotions formed by life experiences. Some of us guide out of fear, others out of pride or self-indulgence. Its hard to change those habits, but the scouting program works best when we take the emotion out and ask, how does this activity encourage habits of character in the boys? Sometimes its not so much that the activity has to have value as much as a reward for the actions behind the activities. Our PLC likes to have an all night lock in of video and computer games. Its a reward that with great benefits down the road. Learn the Guide to Safe Scouting and give it to your PLC. Most of the time, the scouts can and will limit their activities within the appropriate guidelines. The other limitations will more than likely come from the adults. Thats OK if the scouts understand the fears or values behind the adult restrictions. Its even better when the scouts agree. But while some rules are very clear, some restrictions can fall in that grey area, and thats when the wisdom of the master scouter needs to come in play. Thats when we have to measure the value of the game. Read the handbooks, get to know the BSA published material and practice applying values to your unit actions and activities. I think you will find that in many ways, you wont take away activities so much as you will make sure they are run with a purpose. And personally, I think that plain old fun has some positive value too. I know this seems like a wishy washy answer, but my real point is many times there isnt a right or wrong answer. Its going to be up to you to decide what values your scouts get from your limitations. Thats when understanding the Purpose of the Game is the most important. Thats what separates the adult leaders from the boys. Sorry this was long. I have been very busy and its hard to participate in the whole discussion. Have a great scouting day. Barry

Bad choice of words I guess. Controlling the situation if you want. Sending the scout home, sending out of the room to the SPL or SM, sending them off away from the group is a few of the methods of controlling the situation. Also our PLCs have asked the scout to write an oppolgy, with the parents approval. Depending on the circumstances, I have seen the PL ask the offending scout to help at KP or retrive water the rest of the campout to keep him busy when he contiues to be a problem. He may be asked to sit out an activity dependning on the problem and situation. Our point to the scouts is get them out of the situation so the leaders can continue their job and prevent further disruption. If a scout does something away from camp or hurts another scout, the SM will confere with other adults and the SPL. Thee SPL is usally included unless it is something we need to keep private. Punshment? Let's say motivation to change. It is interesting that I have get several request about disapline in every Scoutmaster Specific Class I have taught. One area that is lacking in todays BSA materal is down to earth suggestions for controlling behavoir. Oh there is some out there, but not near enough to answer the basic problems most unit leaders run into. I have not presented anything yet because it needs to be supported by BSA materal, I am seeking ideas from council, but they want me to lead and see where it goes. A chicken or the egg type thing. I think I'm the chicken. I won't use the word punish. Barry