Eagledad

Yep, I believe this one addition to the program is the greatest killer of Patrol Method. NSP was the beginning of a National's push for age based patrols. Aged based patrol took out the older scout roll models and replaced them with adults and Troop Guides that taught the new scouts with school house style teaching instead of continued observation. NSPs also encouraged adults to push leadership responsibilities on the 10 and 11 year olds that were typically older scout roles. Most youth don't have the maturity for leadership until 14, so the adults were unknowingly dumbing down their program to something boring to scouts 14 and above.. A word of caution; after National change the membership policy in 1990 to allow women as troop leaders, they found the unintended consequence of inexperienced adults using WB as a template for their troop Patrol Method. WB at the time was advanced teaching course designed for experienced leaders. It used the Troop Patrol system more for the convenience of putting the adults in manageable groups. IT WAS NOT intended to teach Patrol Method. BUT, the inexperienced adults took the Patrol Method to heart and tried to duplicate it in their own troops. The problem was that the course had many applications that weren't typical to a troop program, like the staff eating their meals with the patrols. Scouts all of a sudden found themselves preparing and eating all their meals with adults. Certainly not what was intended for patrol method. But the real harm that was causing scouts to bail on the troop was the adults directing the patrols to follow the WB program exactly as they experienced it. Thus taking the decision making process away from the scouts. It was causing enough problems that National scraped the Leadership teaching WB course and replaced it in 2000 with a general Leadership Team Building course. Not the same thing at all. BUT, the point here is that inexperienced adults will likely not understand the objective of Patrol Method with only two weeks experience and instead force their experience on the scouts, which is missing the point of patrol method's intention. From my years of working with and training Scouters, I found the biggest hurdle for adults to get over with the Patrol Method is simply trusting that it works. The idea that scouts learning to make better decisions simply by making bad decisions is a lot for todays adults grasp. I was asked to observe a brand new troop of 40 scouts. The troop was led by 3 women brand new to the troop program. After six months, the women were still leading the troop Opening ceremony because they couldn't grasp that their 11 year old scouts could lead it by themselves. While that example is a little extreme, it gets to the heart of the problem with MOST troops, and that is they don't trust their scouts to make good decisions. And that is the point, scouts are supposed to be allowed to make bad decision in the patrol because that is safe place to learn from the decision. Adults just wont let it happen. I tried many activities and programs to change the mindset of new adults without a scouting experience and nothing really works better than them just observing Patrol Method in action. Once the see it, they start to get it, but that is not and instant way to change their perception. Basically what you want to do is get adults away from being a parent and instead be a mentor. A lot more difficult than it sounds. This is not a bad idea, but I think the intention is for the wrong reason. New Scouts struggle because they are taken out of their comfortable environment. My wife and I traveled Europe a few years ago and found myself really stressed before the troop just worrying about the language. We travel a lot, but the difference in cultures and language were a big concern for me. But as in all changes from our comfort levels like job changes, location changes, school changes, we have to adapt with experience. Our pack gradually adds responsibility to each age group to help them mature. I remember asking our new 2nd year Webelos to lead the Pack Flag ceremony. One scout was terified with the idea. After talking to him without change, we let him stand at the back of Den while they performed the ceremony. As the year went on, I watched him stand closer and closer to the present until at the end of the year before crossing over, he volunteered to led. I learned a lot from that experience. But, what really made an impression on me was meeting with my SPL after he had been running the troop for 2 Months. I asked him out for pizza so I could give him a pep talk on how to improve. When I asked him how he was doing as SPL, he spent the next 20 minute bragging about how much he had grown from the experience and all the dreams he was confident in trying. I was floored. I was the recipient of a pep talk on how to let a scout grow confidence by experience of little steps. History has proven that new scouts are going to have anxiety joining a new troop because that much of a cultural change is scary for most normal youth. The anxiety will always be there. But, what we can do is temper the anxiety by reinforcing that they are in a safe place. Youth leaders are actually confident in keeping them safe on campouts. Making wrong decisions about anything is OK because they will not only learn from the bad decision, their comrades in the patrol will help them through the uncomfortable experiences. Building a program that gives new scouts an experience that builds confidence in the troop isn't easy for troop leaders to learn, but it reflects in other parts of the program because Patrol method is really about building a scout confidence to take the next step into an area out of their comfort zone. It is a life skill that will benefit them the rest of their life. The method and techniques for building confidence are worthy discussions. But the methods and techniques should be about making building blocks to higher level experiences that challenge the scouts without discouraging the scout to consider quitting. It's a life skill we want to develop. Barry

I don't thinks so, your theory isn't supported by studies and polls. But if you want to push that theory, than the solution is another year of Webelos. What age do you think it's OK to quit holding the scouts hands? If you want to change the Patrol Structure, you need a different argument. The stress of making personal decisions has little to do with the structure they make the decisions, it has to do with the new practice of dealing with the consequences of making decisions. It's a matter of developing the habit through practice in a safe place. Barry

Is it possible? I have said many times over the years on this forum that adult run programs are usually advancement programs because they are so easy to follow. They don't require much personal guidance or coaching because the results of the scouts actions are obvious to everyone, especially the scout. The uniform is the same, most Eagle Mills are the best dressed programs because a uniform is basically a check list. Patrol method program are more ambiguous because counseling is deeper into how to make right decisions based on the Scout Law. Uniforming a patrol method troops is less tidy because the dictates making right decisions based on his growth and maturity. By the end of my Scoutmastering, I could identify a boys level of maturity or general attitude of life just by how he wore the uniform. Allowing a scouts to grow in the decision making process requires a lot of patience because that process takes years. And maybe that style of adult guidance isn't piratical in this culture. But I wonder what growth comes from following instructions to Eagle. The largest Troop in our district is a bragging 200 scouts strong program that promises Eagle by age 14 if they follow the Troop advancement map. The troop sets a goal of at least 80 new scouts a year, and usually reaches that goal. I used to wonder why the troop wasn't bigger. 80 new scouts a year is a lot. 80 new scouts a year every year and only 200 scouts total. I learned the troop also looses at least 80 scouts a year by age 14. Scouts aren't asked to leave at age 14, but the program is so structured to reach Eagle by age 14, that there is nothing much for those who stay. I can go on and on, but the troop is truly an adult run program. Walk in and follow an adult to the next stop on the map to Eagle. Finish that step and follow an adult to the next stop to Eagle. I once had an Eagle Scout from that troop lead our NYLT course. He was impressive and I asked him how he manage to stay in the program so long after age 14. He said, a few of us actually liked other parts of scouting. I realized he is one of those special rare scouts that is a natural leader and can't get enough of it. He loved our NYLT because it truely was the first time he was the leader of the program. No adult telling him what to do. I don't know what to say Matt. Our troop was half the size of that troop and had the 2nd most Eagles in the district. We were the opposite of an adult run troop. We were certainly not an advancement program. The difference between our programs was our average Eagle was almost 17 years old. Almost half of our scouts where 14 and older, and we had the largest group of older scouts in the council. That includes all the Venture Crews and whatever else. I believe there are two paths being discussed here: one is your suggestion of a planned out step by step program where the scouts check a box and move to the next step. Same as the Eagle Mill I described. The other is plan of personal development by putting a patrol in situations where they have to decide how to go forward. I agree the Eagle Mill is easier for the adults. The Patrol Method route develops more personal growth. I've seen it and understand the two paths. But, the future of scouting appears to require inexperienced adults who need a step by step plan to know when the scouts actions are successful, so they know when their own actions of managing the program are successful. I believe adults have a role, but their role in the traditional program was limited with the intention to guide young adults to grow in adult skills. That requires the adults to grow as much as the scouts to be successful, and maybe that is asking too much of adults anymore. As I've claimed before, the changes folks in this forum seem to want for scouting leads to a more after school type program where the adults know exactly where the scouts are in location and can measure where they are in the program at all times. Maybe that is all this culture will allow now. I'm settled with that, but it's not scouting for me. Barry

Whatever you need to justify your feelings of the BSA. I get it. Barry

The next town is still local. And if scouting was thriving for you, what has to change. And what is the National frustration that you mention? There are all kinds of frustrations, especially at a local level. I was scouting during those years you were scouting and I learned a lot of the National issues going on at the time, but very few people understood of the problems because they weren’t obvious at the local level. For example, admitting women leaders into troops caused a lot of unforceen issues and numbers were dropping. Enough that National scraped Wood Badge and started over to build a training program for adults without a youth scouting experience. But, the issues had to be seen at a National level data, local units wouldnt see it. The easy solution was stop accepting women. Is that where you would have started changing the BSA. If you don’t understand how parts of the program effect other parts, then you can’t respect the challenges of making changes. Nationally the cubs program looses more than 50% of 2nd Webelos after crossover. The reason is very complicated, but it comes down to adult burnout. And, take this fact into account as well, scouts go where their parents go. Loose the parents, and the program likely looses the scout. National has a lot of challenges to deal with, if they want to deal with them. Trends tend to take about five years to show up in the data. So, membership trends are more important than annual numbers. We even predicted some membership trends on this as a result of some unwise changes from National. And then the problem is identifying the cause. You imply the BSA needs an overhaul, but I can argue with facts that it only needs a tune up. After all, even your troop was thriving. Why change that? Barry

Statistically BSA looses more scouts in the first year of the troop program than any other age group. It’s been that way at least from the 60s, which was as far back as I could find. But, I believe it goes back much farther because the reason for the huge drop is the large change in culture expectations (independent decisions) between the two programs. Cubs are still led and guided by adults during the program, while Troop scouts are expected to make Independent decisions about their health and safety in the cold dark rainy woods. Even making a menu for the next campout can be stressful. Most scouts way over pack for there first campout because they are scared they won’t have something they need to be safe or comfortable. We learned new scouts need some lighting by the bathrooms or they will do their job by the tent, which gets smelly. We forget how scary a dark campsite in the middle of the woods can be. I first experienced that problem with Webelos. Independence sounds good to a scout joining a troop until they see the risk of a wrong decision. Youth up to 10 years old have not been given much independence experience by adults to makes choices. It’s a shock. National tried to work this problem with New Scout Patrols thinking friends together are likely to feel better about the fear, but numbers haven’t changed. It’s literally a culture shock. It is very stressful and adults don’t deal with the problem very well. The BSA says if a scout will hang around for a year, they will likely stay for at least 3 years. My data found that if scout gets through summer camp and liked it, they will stay for several years. So, the key is to wean them through through the program past summer camp, which is long enough to get used to the independence expected of troop age scouts. im not a fan of Eagle Mills, but they do have a better average for new scouts staying because the adults are still so hands on. Barry

Scouting is local for local scouters. When I read that change is overdue without a substance of reason, the author is typically applying a local frustration to a national level. In fact, no improvement is likely. You only have to read the variety of posts here to see that very few folks understand the big picture of the program. They just apply their usually emotional fixes to their local experience. well at least there is some reasoning here. Still, these are reasons based from emotional irritations, or just general hate of the BSA. The author is consistent giving negative criticism of the BSA. I always wonder, is consistent whining a type of integrity? I remember about 20 years ago on this forum when several posters felt the gay issue was the reason for lost membership. No evidence, just conjecture. I remember thinking, where is that coming from? I was tuned in nationally and nobody was complaining. I didn’t know what a troll was then, but the issues of the time where nothing compared to today. While National has not manage the program well. It’s the law suit that is got everybody wondering how the BSA will survive. Everything else is just irritation. I would liked to have seen how National would of reacted to problems before the lawsuit. This could be the killer. And, what will the victims get out of it after the lawyers get their cut. Barry

Tomatos - tomotos. Sheesh! Barry

Nothing here changes my post. people want to support scouting, at least they used to, and products give them that opportunity. Our troop did car washes for donations. Some of those donations were over $100. Only a few were less than $20 at a time when $5 was a the most anyone would pay at a commercial car wash. AND, there is arm no bending to sell cookies, candy and popcorn, it’s their choice. Barry

From the OP: “Thanks for your advice. Unfortunately, the facts of the Advancement Guide had been presented to all levels including to council but they have decided not to intervene. ” Of course more details are included, but you can read all the posts yourself and decide. Barry

Really? The scouts take responsible for success in one and grow from the experience , while the adults take the growth opportunity away from the scouts in the other. Let’s not suggest selling high priced items to raise funds for scouts is new. It’s been a tradition at least since the 60s when my sisters and I were scouts. I haven’t seen the Campfire Scouts selling their candy in some years, but if I ever do, I will donate, A LOT. Barry

What a strange situation. I’ve never heard of so many adults at so any levels of a youth organization not want to support a youth’s endeavor toward a noble dream. Why? Barry

I’m on a lot of forums and I always wonder why someone chooses to enter a discussion they don’t want discussed. It boggles my mind. Role model some character and quietly find a discussion you enjoy. All discussions eventually live or die by the interest that holds them at the top of the list. Barry

Lawton is the southern office in the Last Frontier Council. Call the OKC office, which is the main office for the Council and ask for the Field Director because that position knows exactly who you should talk to. If they point you back to the Lawton Office, then explain your frustration. You may not be asking the right questions. Fees, while important, are not really your starting place. As John-In -KC stated, you need a charter organization and a few youth ready to join. Lone Scouts might be an option, but even then you still need to understand how the program works and that requires guidance and training. Barry

There are two offices you can call for help. The Lawton office is the closest for you, but the OKC office will have someone who can help as well. The present situation of the program is pretty dynamic. Fees being one of the challenges. I would ask specifically for the Field Director. They are close to the program and know who should be your professional contact. Barry

Depends if the outfitter comes with you, or you just rent their gear. I think it is comparable if you just rent gear. Prices vary with choices of gear and food as well. We always rented the higher priced Kevlar canoes because the lighter weight is very manageable for single person to portage. The outfitters usually know where to catch fish. We've never gone through the BSA NT base, but we have canoed some of the NT lakes and found the Canadian side Boundary Waters less populated. Canada does not allow motorized machinery on Boundary Waters. Barry

I agree with CynicalScouter. For years our district believed that the SM had to be the final authority on MBs. We use the White Sheet MB application that requires the SM to only sign before the Scout starts his work with the MB Counselor. It took a couple years to retrain the SMs in our district. I could go on with advancement myths, but the point is to make sure you understand the guidelines to fully understand who is out of line. Barry

Our troop kind of did this out of necessity because of seasonal sports, band and other activities. With a members of 100 scouts, our meetings averaged 60 participation. Except for summer camps and holidays when we usually averaged around 90%. Scouts it figured out. Barry

Weird topic, discussing a program whose advantages hasn't been described. I learned several years ago with KUDU that good scout leaders will make any program structure work for their success. Baden Powell Scouts, BSA Scouts, Lone Scouts, it really doesn't matter. It's not the program structure that makes success, it's understanding how all the parts make the whole of the vision. Experts say that 4% of the population are big picture people. Program structures are created for the other 96%. My High School Principle son told me once that the difference between the quality of schools is the common vision of the teachers and administration. More often the problem is the lack of the common vision. Rare is the program (any program) guided by a visionary who manages the small parts successfully to achieve above average performance. MattR and I don't always agree, I'm not sure why. But, I strongly agree, "Try It". Nobody will stop you. Nobody stopped me. Extreme. Radical. Or, maybe the program is closer to the original design because the others got off track somewhere way back. MattR says "If it works then let us know". That's why he is here, and why I'm here. Many of us are here because we have the T-Shirt. We know. But not in the since of "My way of the Highway". We know in the since of principles and youth psyche. The T-Shirt is torn and stained with blood, sweat and tears. I've watch this subject and I have yet to see anything in small brief description of Lone Scouts that our troop wasn't doing. After shucking away all the anger and emotion, Lone Scouts is just another scouts program. Make it work. Barry

""During the early stages of the project, Girl Scouts and FIT conducted focus groups with current Girl Scouts to tap into the inspirational brains of modern girls and gain insight into what they hoped to see reflected in the new designs. "" This is what young adult female designers and current Girls Scouts think Scouts should look like. This is in contrast to discussions on this forum that seem to go away from traditional scouting uniforms. Barry

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/girl-scouts-enlists-fit-fashion-design-students-for-uniform-redesign-and-new-apparel-collection-301117925.html In our discussion of uniforms, the GSs approach for a new uniform is interesting. Appears the designers like a modern approach to tradition. I like it. Barry

Mmm, OK? Have a good day.

I did not have the maturity at your age to be a good Scoutmaster. However, a mentor who I copied much of our program was a SM at age 20 and recently retired from the position at around the age of 60. I don't know if you are even ready, but I will say that I believe the position to be be more of an idealist guide than a adult teacher or leader. Your two examples are extreme opposites, but I wonder which would be more satisfying in developing as a successful program. As a 40 year old father of three kids and two Boy Scouts, I took the safe route (safe being I started a new troop with my Webelos). But, as a young man with lots of energy and few responsibilities, I might have made a different choice. Barry

You simply are over reacting. I'm not sure where it was created, AND I don't care. Origination has nothing to do with you wanting scrap the current patrol method program. AND, you haven't yet given a good program example why Lone Scouts would be a good replacement. You just sound angry. Barry

You seem to be using registration as reasoning for how Patrol Method is used, that is not the case. Patrol Method is team actions actions intended to force each scout to make decisions based off the Law and Oath. Lone Scout was created for boys in rural areas where meeting as a group is not practical. Meeting a few times a year as a group is not a reasonable application of patrol method because the scout doesn't make enough decisions to develop habits of good character. I'm not saying it can't be done, I'm just questioning why. Since Lone Scouts wasn't intended for using Patrol Method, why would anyone need to try when Patrol Method already exist? Seems you are going about this backwards. Why not instead use some of the advantages of Lone Scouts to improve the existing patrol method. I'm not sure what those advantages would be, but registration has little to do with youth activities intended to drive decision making. Barry