Eagledad

I can't but help feel that everything happened the way it did for a purpose. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi Rooster I am not sure I understand what you are saying. I worked differently with my SPL Rooster. First I will start by saying that out of the thousands of PLCs I've attended, I never saw one where the scouts discussed in some way hurting another scout. I'd be curious if someone on this forum has. As for always being present at the meeting, well I worked in the "teach them, trust them, let them go" style. If you don't trust your scouts to perform in an expected manner, then you train them until you build that trust. Eventually most SPLs master running meetings. The rest of the of the Patrol Leaders Council master sitting through them. The next step of building confidence would be staying out of the meeting to see how they perform. I feel if adults attend meetings to prevent problems, then they are probably not allowing a lot of growth because they are afraid of the results. I am not saying that adults should not attend scouting activities because we have to see them in action to understand where they are in their growth toward manhood. I am saying for a program to grow, the scouts have to be trusted, or trained so they can be trusted. If you are afraid scouts will plot against of other scouts, then your program needs run in such a way to train your scouts until you can trust them to not behave in that manner. My scouts have run many meetings without the SM attending. Sometimes things didnt go very well, but thats what we learned from the experience. Comments? Scouting Cheers Barry

>>If you take the position that only a parent can know what information is important, aren't transcripts of all our conversations the logical conclusion? Otherwise aren't you making a judgement as to what you do and don't tell a parent?

>>MW, what if your disclosure resulted in the child receiving a severe beating from his father who tuned out to be a closet child abuser? You had no idea about the father, but the child knew, and thats why the child came to you.

>>Time out here folks

>>I would violate that confidence therefore not being trustworthy. And to me, my word is far more important that a rule.

Hi All There is another part of this that needs to be looked at. The adult has to be seen as the person of wisdom. Wisdom being lifes experiences. I know from experience that boys will have a higher respect for that wisdom when they know its limits. One of the limits is no secrets from the parents. I don't even feel it's a "don't ask don't tell" type thing, it's a moral relationship. A policy of no secrets actually takes away barriers and opens up the SM and scout relationship. While many here think scouts will view this as the adult telling on the scout, I found the boys viewed the relationship as another valued resource for advice and guidance. It is the one part of Baden Powells description of a SM he describes as a big brother. A big brother would not hold important information from the parents. The wise SM would not hold back a secret from parents that he views harmful to the son because that would violate the relationship of the family. Scouts won't run from this, they are attracted to it because they can count on it and it is noble. Now for the liability side, I just watched a close friend have to defend himself from a parent who wanted to know why she was not informed about her sons bad behavior on a campout. The friend knew better but wanted the trust of the boy. However, he lost the trust of the parent. Sure things come up that is hard for the parent/child relationship, but that is not for us to judge. The police and DHS have called me about scouts in my troop, but even that has its protocols. Also, I always conferred with other trusted adults on most boy matters because sometimes my guidance could be wrong and I wanted another opinion. Barry

>> Cooking on stoves is here to stay, but knowing how to build a fire and cook on it is pretty important and not as basic as it may seem.

>>Needless to say our troop of soon to be Tenderfoot scouts beat these "older Scouts" hands down.

Hi David Lots of great ideas. Eagle74 gave you a great start. I will point out the first one, even the second annual planning are the hardest because it's. It can be hard for the SPL to maintain control when he doesn't exactly know what to expect, so keep the expectations of this one very simple. 1.You may not see it this first time, but as you grow you will see that goals are the rails that keep good program and track. Bob gave good advice to start with goals. I would suggest for this first time, have your PLC set only a few goals so that you guys dont get lost in the details of what your doing, maybe as few as two the first time. I also suggest that you and your SM walk in the room with a few goals in mind already so you can start the discussion with some examples 2. Just like Eagle74 suggested, break your meeting into small controllable blocks. Our PLC started with about 30 minutes devoted to setting troop goals. Then the SPL ask for ideas for the Monthly theme, then the Campout Themes, and after that campout locations. Some troops combine Monthly Themes and Campout themes together which is fine. But the point for you is break up your meeting so that you can control subjects. Or else everyone gets distracted with to many ideas and starts talking. 3. Our Troop also allows everyone to give ideas, but you will loose the meeting quickly is you dont hold some kind of order. One idea is allow only patrol leaders to give the ideas for the patrol. The adults are considered a patrol in here and while all adults can give ideas, only one can speak for that patrol. Set a maximum number ideas for each patrol. For example, during the Monthly them section, each patrol can give five ideas. You go around the room ask each patrol for one idea, then go around again until youve done it five times. Do the same for Campout Themes and again for locations. This allows you to control the flow of ideas to one person at a time. This also allows the adults to give ideas they feel is needed for the program. Then allow the scouts to vote on the ideas. Our patrols are allow five votes on each subject. We take a break let the scouts discuss among themselves likes and dislikes of ideas then the patrol leader put a mark next to the idea his patrol likes. In our troop, each patrol is allowed five votes for each block. I dont where the number came from and you can certainly add more. Allow SHORT breaks so the scouts can talk about the ideas and to stay fresh. Our experience is four hours is about the max for staying on topic, even with short breaks. After that, everyone starts to just say whatever they feel just to finish the meeting. A lunch break is a great idea. I also like the idea of using the SPL Handbook to plan the meeting is an excellent idea. Finally, I found that a meeting with the SM, SPL and ASPL the day before made it easier for us all to understand the goals. I would suggest that the ASPL be the guy trying to pull ideas from the quiet scouts, and also the controller of scouts who want to dominate the meeting. This allows the SPL to keep focus on the subjects and keeping the flow of the meeting going. The SPL from the very beginning has to show control. If not, the meeting gets long real quickly. Don't be afraid to put your sign up to get attention back to you and the subject. There are a lot of great ideas here, many come from PLCs with a lot of experience. You are new, so keep it simple, learn from thisexperience and then change to improve the next one. Our First Annual Planning went to 4:00 AM. About ten hours. Now our guys do in about three, and they get a lot more done. It takes practice. Good luck Barry

My SM had a way of getting me set higher goals. I liked myself when I was around him. When I got my job at the FAA in 1995, my building was across the street from him. But when I looked him up, he had passed away six months before. Barry

>>Mark: >>I wish everyone saw it your way and did what your troop >>does. Most do take the summer "off." I wish it were >>otherwise. Like Mark, I'm a little surprise also. We take a week off after summer camp. Otherwise it's pretty much business as usual. This is typical for most of the units in our area. We may change the meeting agenda when the Venture Crews are out because that's usually most of the PLC. This is very interesting. Have a great weekend. Barry

Camp Slippery Falls in Oklahoma Camp Arrowhead in Missouri Camp Pioneer in Arkansas Camp Alexander in Colorado Camp Frank Rand in New Mexico We learn a lot about Camp Spanish Peaks in Colorado while using it for a backpacking base camp. A Kansas Council owns that one. Our Troop is going to Camp Hale in Oklahoma this year while I'm at Philmont. Barry

Hi All >>Ah, yes the 13th point of the Scout law for adults - be flexible.>Let's just say that I love the scouting where the rubber hits the road. I enjoy inter-acting with the volunteers who are doing what's best for the boys. I respect the heck out of the national and regional offices, but I'l stick to local council operations. The good, the bad, and the ugly.

Happy Days All Does anyone know if there are any changes to the advancment requirments or a 180 degree shift in the context of the material. If not, I don't think you have much of a problem. When the Boys Scouts changed their books, they looked completely different and the order of the topics changed. However the context of topics and subjects changed very little. If the advancment requirements don't change in the Cub books, I don't think a scout buying the old book this year will have be a big problem. I would suggest that the den leader ask all the scouts in the den get the same book to prevent confusion when trying to instruct or reference from it. Barry

Great advice Ed. Also you guys need training. I know, everyone says that. However I'm not saying that because I'm compnay guy, but more because I was once where you were at. The first thing we did was Eds advice, close all accounts and start over. Then we looked for help and training. You need to learn the business end of your Pack program pretty fast. Sign up for training, that is a given. But I would also suggest you find another Pack with a solid program and ask them for little guidence. District and council training are important, but a big brother is worth it's weight in gold. If done right, I think you will be at full speed in a few months. Call your District Membership Chairman and ask them to name packs near you who have a good program. Then go and visit the CC. Visit thier committee meeting. Watch the Pack meeting. Take what you like and change what you don't. But get to know some folks who are willing to answer questions and help you get up to speed. The sooner you get up to speed, the sooner you will be thinking how you love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Why assume that character and integrity are gendered?>Surely it's not that we (as a society) take character and integrity for granted in women and find it so rare in men that we have to hunt for examples! :-)

>>Don't be afraid to totally "roll your own". If you have a solid camping program, you can do this!

Have you looked at the Pecos trek sponcered by Camp Frank Rand. Our scouts feel Pecos was best and most challenging backpacking trek our Venture Patrols have done. Rand gives you a guide with any patrol gear you don't have. You can add or take what ever gear you prefer. They get their food from Philmont. The Pecos Wilderness is very large, so you can pick as challenging Trek as you want. And there is some routes with fishing. I don't think you will be disapointed. Great trek. Anther one we liked was Spanish Peaks at Camp Spanish Peak near Walsenburg Colorado. They also include a guide and you can plan the trek as challenging as you want. I believe their routes can include climbing and rappelling. Very nice as well, but our guys rate Pecos first with Philmont next, then Spanish Peaks. Barry

Hi All Call your DE and ask if there is a troop these boys would fit in. We had a local troop that would take these boys, but it was not well known to the general public. A Troop like that may be waiting for your call. Barry

Hi All One aspect of scouting I like to teach adults is that bad behavior is not a reflection of your program performance, How you work with the scout is. Adults should never take a scouts behavior personally. Bad behavior is part of scouting and are opportunities to be a scout leader, not embarrassments. Developing habits of behavior Is our Job. Behavior is the main product of Teach-me, Trust-me, Let-me Go. I learned that every time adults get excited about misbehavior, the scout is held less accountable because the adults take the burden on themselves. Its the scout's responsibility, leave it that way. Your job is holding him accountible and teaching the boy habits of a man who controls his feelings. As you continue developing your Troop, you will eventually work yourself almost out of job. Your 17 year old scouts will teach the scout skills, advise the SPL, train the new scouts and play capture the flag. So while you're relaxing on your Campmor Camp Easychair counting locus in the trees, you look forward to opportunities to work with the scouts. So when something like this comes up, jump into your nearby tent (make sure no one else is in there), change into your SUPER SCOUTMASTER Tights and rush to work with the scout. I agree that in most cases you should work with the scout one on one without other adults standing next to you looking like they are waiting to baste the turkey. You can have a conference privately with scouts and still be close to the others by simply getting jsut far enough away that your conversation is private. Probably 95% of my SM Conferences were done only a few yards away from the action. Make sure you ask questions and dont show anger. Disappointment yes, but not anger. Just lay out the facts. You are not mad at the scout, but disappointed in his behavior. Always talk eye to eye with the scout either by sitting down with him or keeling on one knee. He needs to see that this is a conversation between the master of wisdom and the learning scout, not the big giant adult jumping down on the bad boy. The troop is the adult world scaled down to a boy size, so the SM treats all his scouts like adults. In fact, I find scouts tend to act more like adults than adults in many cases. During your conference, the scout should be able to admit his bad action, explain where it conflicts with the Scout Oath and Law, set a goal of how to react in a positive manner the next time, and express regret. He can express his regret in many ways, apologizing to the persons he hurt and offended is a common one. Usually its the apology, by words or letter, that makes the scout really reflect on his action. You can add more rules and policy in your troop if you need, but I find most troops react this way when the adults are inexperienced with working with the boys and the troop is young. Most boy run Troops eventually learn how to just use the Scout Law and Oath as their guidelines because the other rules tend to only give adults more opportunities to get more in the way. So if you feel you have to create something, keep it very simple. I agree the PLC should be part of the process in these rules. Leadership is a wonderful tool for finding the real boy. Most of use can control ourselves when all is well, but the struggles of leadership seem to pull the worst out of us. So be ready for it. Dont get angry or over react. You are the Scoutmaster. The Leader of Wisdom and if the scout is to respect the Wisdom, he needs to see it applied from the quiet mannered adult. If the scout respects the Scoutmaster, he will feel more badly that he disappointed him than just getting a lecture. I once had a PL come in crying from hitting a scout. Without me ever saying a word, he confessed, explained where he failed in the Scout Law, told me how would do it different next time and ask to leave to go apologize. He did let me talk to his parents, but he took the rest of my fun away. Great kid though. As for reporting to parent and committee. I report everything to parents, good and bad, I like to brag and I want the parents to know all. But when I tell them about the bad behavior, I keep it in context. I might say, mention it to him but dont make it a big deal because I want to see how he reacts to our conference. Or if it is serious, then I will ask for their help. As for the committee, I have never had a situation where I needed to call the committee together immediately. I have with bad adult behavior, but not with scouts. Remember, behavior is our job and if it gets that bad, then the problem should be handed over to the parents. But, I would give a report to the committee at each meeting. Give one-line reports on the scouts for both good and bad things that happen. Let the committee know what goes on in the troop and how you deal with it. Oh, I like to talk with other adults after a conference for two reasons, one to allow the other adult to give another opinion, (Super Scoutmaster is Humble), and to have a witness that an action was taken. This is a lot, Im sorry. But I think this is an important subject. Good luck with this scout and remember, as your walking back from your SM conference to change back into your mild-manner adult leader outfit, dont trip over you cape, its embarrassing. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Wish I could share the eggs with you all.

>>Woodbadge is not to train you how to run a troop it is to develop leadership skills. Not Scout Leadership skills. >In all due respect, the proglem is not that the Wood Badge course is missing the target, the problem is you misunderstand what the target is. >Experience can only build confidence if the individual has a thourough understanding of the tools and what they are supposed to be accomplishing with them. Bad experience can even help make a better leader, but only if they recognize that it was a bad experience.

Hi All I'm a little lost on what National wants of WB. When I ask, I get different answers. I did not think the old Boy Scout Wood Badge contributed much to helping adults run a troop. I had fun and took away a few new ideas from the old course but I went in with several years of Troop experience and was only looking to build on my experiece. It was not a mountain top experience, but an addition of training. I feel Wood Badge was design for those with some experience to bring perspective to their WB experience. On the other hand the Cub Scout WB sounded more like the type a of training a new leader needed to be a better leader. It was an intense week of Cub Scouting presentations, applications and how to work hands on with Cub age boys. I think this is what the new WB program is now, am I wrong? Just last night I talked on the phone with a Troop leader who is sending me six brand new adults for SM Specific this weekend so they can get ILOS and be ready to attend WB in the Fall. Is that a good thing? I would say no two years ago, but now I think it is. Other than WB, I don't think the BSA teaches how to work with boys. I will have to wait and see the new course, if I ever get invited. But there is some concern on my part that how much training can we do before VOLUNTEERS stop volunteering. Our council is even REQUIRING adult training at our JLTC course now. I implemented that requirement and I am pretty sure that is the coming trend because we learned a couple of years ago that JLT is worthless if the adults are clueless about the training youth leadership. So where does it all stop? I am passionate about Boy Scouting. There is no other program out there that does as good a job as Boy Scouting for building character in boys and preparing them for life as an adult. But I do feel that fewer adults understand how or why, and because of that, the program is migrating away from the very attributes that make it great. The only way to save the program is educating the adults. While I am more of a purest who believes that experience builds competence, I hope WB works. Barry

Aero Engineer for the Research Division of the FAA. Barry