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Everything posted by Eagledad
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Learning experience vs. letting them fail
Eagledad replied to Zahnada's topic in Open Discussion - Program
>>When the boys know there is always going to be an adult there to "bail them out" or worse, override their decisions, they tend to get lazy or disinterested. -
>>Why do you think homosexuals should or should not be banned from Scouting?
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Learning experience vs. letting them fail
Eagledad replied to Zahnada's topic in Open Discussion - Program
>>. I also think it builds more positive relationships between the youths and adults. Shouldn't "...help other people at all times..." apply to us, too? -
Questions for Scout Leader Trainers.
Eagledad replied to Bob White's topic in Wood Badge and adult leader training
>>Just look at the wide variety of methods expressed on this board from similarly trained leaders all using the same book. The reason I believe is that too many trainers each alter the course "just a little" then the person who is trained alters it a little more, and so on down the line until what happens at the unit level resembles scouting in uniform only. -
$89.99 at Campmor. A little pricy for a stove and we only bought two at first to try them out. But after six month testing by the Venture Patrol, we got one for every patrol. Well worth it. They make up for the prices that you can use them for your high-adventure treks. We had so many problems with the Coleman Dual-Fuel Camping stoves. We had several fires from over pumping where no one was hurt, but they sure woke us up. We converted to propane for safey, but they still seem to require constant maintenance. We had to take a spare every campout. About thsi time the troop wanted to get away from the heavy patrol boxes, so we decided to find a new stoves. We stumbled on to Coleman Exponent. Buy one and let each patrol try it out for a campout. I think you will like them. It takes little while for the scouts to relize how little flame they need to boil water. Our patrols use to go through two bottles a campout, now some can get two campouts out of one bottle. We generally go through about three for a week of wilderness camping. That is useing two burners most of the time. Barry
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HI We also use the 2 burner Expeditions. Our Troop converted to Troop Light five years ago to get rid of the patrol boxes. We wanted to be a troop that could pack everyting to our campouts. We have use seven of these stoves every month for four years. They have also been to Philmont, Pecos Wilderness, Spanish Peaks and a few other Backpaking treks, Northern tier Canoe trips and loaned out for personal campouts. They have worked well at 12000 ft and 10 degrees below zero. They have been stepped on, kick on, tossed around, left in the rain and dropped in the lake and all seven of our stoves still work great. I believe they are the safest stove a scout could use. I'm not trying to sell the stove, just give you our experience with them. If anyone is at Philmont between June 19 and 30th, look for Troop 386 and we will show it to you. Great Boy Scout backpacking stove. Have a great scouting week. Barry
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>>Small Scouts & big knives don't mix well.
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Good Morning Ed. What safety issue do they state? I once ask a camp director in another council about the sheath knife restriction. He said it was a Council Policy and did not know why. Nothing was said about safety. We once had a discussion on the safety issue of sheaths hanging on belts, but it was brought out that many adults and scouts are allowed to wear the pocket tools, even flash lights in sheaths. I not challenging you Ed, but saying safety doesnt make sense. I feel it must only be a response to image. I rarely carry a knife and only a small pocket knife if Im alone in the woods. So its not personal. I beleive sheath knives to be as safe, if not a little safer than some of the pocket knives that we consider acceptable. If a camp thinks sheath knives are less safe, fine. But explain how and why. They permit saws, which have the most injuries of scouting woods tools, and axes, which require more skill. But not a sheath knife? Thanks for your reply, have a great scouting day. Barry
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Hi Purcelce We had a district that did something like this under the backpacking theme. All the patrols got up, packed up and hiked to different events with the last event setting up camp again. I wasn't there, so I don't remember the events or how they judge the scouts, but each patrol got in a two or three miles in the day at Slippery Fall Scout Ranch. It was planned and led by backpacking Ventruing Crews. Scouting Cheers Barry
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>>The summer camp we attend has a ban on sheath knives.
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I saw where the question was specific to Bob White and Desteele. I was not trying to grandstand, so please accept my apology. I await your wisdom as well. Scouting cheers. Barry
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Hi All We all agree that the best YP is two deep. That was not fboisseau's question and I wanted to understand National's intent because his question effects us at so many levels. I asked a trainer lastnight and she siad this: These discussions need to include Merit Badge Counseler training because it doesn't teach 2 deep leadership, but that a scout needs a buddy. TWO-DEEP leadership applies ONLY to trips and Outings. YOUTH PROTECTION applies all the time. TWO-DEEP says there must be 2 adults present for trips and outing. YOUTH PROTECTION says that an adult must never be alone with a single Scout, not his/her son, at any time. The Den and Troop Meeting would have been fine with one adult and three scouts. It's kind of funny how she seem to make it sound so simple. And I am not saying this should be the final word, just what a trainer in our Council has taught. I believe the best rule of thumb is to conciously stay out of situations of question. Have a great day. Barry
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Hi all Along with some of the ideas already mentioned, in the last six months of our Webelos program, I had my Webelos meetings at the same time and place as the troop. I did it with the intentions to get the Webelos more comfortable with Boy Scouts. The only time the Webelos and Scouts were together was for openings where the Webelos would stand in formation as their own Patrol. After that we seperated from the troop and did our own program. My Webelos were surprised to learn that the Troop openings were almost identical with their own openings they had been doing for the last year. When they weren't needed, I noticed the parents of my Webelos would drift off from time to time to go watch the scouts in action. Sometimes we had a problem with the Webelos having so much fun with their program that the Troop scouts came over to watch. I had sixteen Webelos, eleven of them are Eagles now, with another, my son, on the way. I think meeting at the same time as the troop was a great experience for the boys. I love this scouting stuff. Barry
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Hi mk When I was new to scouting and naive, I used to think the SM was THE position with the most influence on the scouts. Since then I've learn the adults behind the Scoutmaster who see the big picture and think outside the box are the real influences in great troop programs. I wished I had you standing with me when I we were blazing trail. They cant see it yet, but like the new super-fast rollercoaster ride that we hesitate to get on, everyone will be smiling from ear to ear when its over. Your troop will never be the same. Man I love Scouting Stuff. Barry
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>>During the meeting the SM acts as the Sargent at Arms. He or she is there to make sure that no one interrupts the flow of the meeting and to insure the rules of Scouting are not violated.
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I feel this is a PC issue. More of perception than utility. A boy walking around with his knife strapped to his side is not as PC as the scout with a knife hidden in the pocket. There is the percpetion that sheath knives a much bigger than the folding knives. I carry one of each while hunting and my sheath is very small and light. I use it when I need a tool put under a lot of stress like hides or bone. My experiences with scouts and knives is that sheath knives are safer than folding knives. When used under a lot of stress, some cheap folding knives can fold back into the fingers or break at the handle. I know that most knives lock very well, but some don't lock at all. So on the purely safety side, I feel more comfortable with scouts using sheath knifes. But very few of our scouts use sheath anymore because the the new high-strength lightweight folding knives are the style. Have a great scouting day. Barry
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Webeloree, that's kind of hard to say. I'll bet it is the same thing. We have great success with it when planned well and it's basically Troops demonstrating and teaching skills to the Webelos in a Camporee setting. We've had a few Webelos Woods (Webeloree) that were ran better than our Camporee and the Troops felt were more fun. Of course that is a different issue. Many districts use Webelorees to train adults while the scouts are working with their Webelos. Barry
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>>Wouldn't you rather see Webelos at a Camporee on council property getting to see scout skills being performed as a competition than taking them on a primitive campout in the boonies with a latrine trowel and running them away for good?
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Wonderful Day All I had an interesting experience this morning. We took my almost 13-year-old daughter to the bus for camp. Not a scout camp, a church camp. I know, I forgot too. There are other camps besides scout camps. Anyway, this is the first time in a long time that I was not one of the adults in charge or responsible for this group, much less even going. I was just a parent standing and waiting for the bus to shut its doors and leave the parking lot. It was fun watching from the other side. Same as scouts, there are two different groups huddled together laughing and talking at world record speed. One excited and slightly nervous smaller group who I immediately identified as the new kids who have not been yet, and the other group of been their done thats. Same as the scouts, but much clearer when you not the adult everyone is trying to ask those last few questions of how much should and what happens if. While the moms giggled in their uncertainty, the father of my daughters best friend walked over and ask, I guess youre used to this, arent you?. Yes, I said with smile. But I wasnt thinking about that really. I was thinking back at my first summer camp to Slippery Falls Scout Ranch in Oklahoma. That crisp clear cool early sunny morning with all the scouts in full uniforms. Me running to my patrol and jabbering about everything, but saying it so fast that it came out as nothing. There was the smell of canvas tents and exhaust gas fumes from the waiting bus. And that energy in the air seems to make it all feel like a dream. I remember mom and dad hanging around with the other moms and dads just quietly watching me, and I wondering why they didnt go home since I was in the care of our Patrol Leader. It was just summer camp for goodness sake. But I learned 25 years later that it was more than just camp. It was the first time one of their children was leaving for any real length of time. It was the first time they were catching the first glimpse of their oldest child turning into an adult. For them and many of the first year parents, it was the start of a week that seemed like a month. It was the beginning of the next stage of parent hood. That was early 70s and the school bus had no A/C. a couple hours on I-35 and all the windows were open in hopes that the breeze would push the almost 100 degree air out the bus. There was singing and jokes. The older scouts telling stories (slightly scary and untrue) to the younger guys. And the adults up front chatting among themselves. Im not going to summer camp this year. We have a new SM taking the reins and my sons are taking me to Philmont for two weeks. But as I stood there watching my daughter going to her first weeklong summer camp, I was pulled through a lot of emotions. Parenting, adult scout leadership, and perfect youthful scout memories. All of a sudden, I wanted to trade my Philmont trip for summer camp. I envy all of you going to camp this year. I will be thinking about you as I sip my coffee on the way to work. My memories will help my coffee have that fresh brewed summer camp taste as I reflect on those crisp cool mornings. There is that sliver of time between watching the sunrise over Troop 386 and when the SPL gets up to wake his troop. Its that precious time that seems to stop for a just a moment while God smiles on the troop. Driving home this morning from delivering my daughter to her first experience of self-independence, I realized that watching the new SM take MY Troop to camp without me was just the beginning another phase in my life. As one adult leader to another, you all are the best. You give so much and get back so little. You are Gods blessing to our sons. Thank you. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry
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HI MG Dsteel beat me to the punch. As a parent you are obligated to protect your son, and I blieve the other scouts in your Troop. In a similar situation, we had an adult who knew he had a bad temper. But he felt his actions toward scouts (physical and mental abuse) was not over the edge because the SM was the only adult confronting him. Since the Troop Committee appeared not supporting the SM, he thought they didnt feel his behavior to be dangerous or abusive and the SM was just over reacting. The problem with the CC was hoping the problem would go away because this adult was a very hard worker and he didnt want to loose him. The other committee members didnt want to offend either the SM or the other adult, so they just stayed out. After a few months and another close call, the SM called and emergency committee meeting and told them that he was reporting the adult to the CE because the committee failed to keep the scouts safe. Either the committee would support his actions or become part of the problem. One adult stood up and said he would talk with the adult and tell him the committee wanted him to step away from the scouts. I believe everyone wanted to do this all along but they needed someone to start momentum. Once the committee as a whole confronted the adult, he voluntarily step back from personal contact with the scouts, but stayed in the program. He is very active Nationally and we are all friends now. Part of your SMs problem could be that your committees timid reaction is sending a signal that allows him to feel is behavior is appropriate. And that is very dangerous. It's not just your son who is in danger. This man cannot control himself and someone is going to get hurt. Good luck. Barry
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eagle scouts: quality vs quantity
Eagledad replied to scottsuny's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Good Morning All I enjoyed your post Red Feather, thanks. I have a few friends in Mic-O-Say and I wish we had it here. Like your Troop, Eagle was never a focus for us. We push a fun boy run program using the eight methods for leadership development. Lately we seem to around average ten eagles a year in a program where the adults do not set the goals for the boys. It's not easy to build a program like that, you have to have an attitude about you because there are so many adults who are Eagle focused. When ever someone in our District talks about their troop with a goal to make every scout Eagle, I ask them; if given the opportunity to have one boy for one hour in your troop, what would you want him to leave with for the rest of his life? He doesn't have time to be an Eagle, so what then? If every boy who comes to your troop changes just a bit to be a better man for his family and community, then isn't that a better success. If a Troop with the goal to make every scout an Eagle misses one, then that program has failed. In a program where only 2% of Scouts make Eagle, isn't it better to focus on an outcome that has more favorable odds. I once watched a commissioner tell tiger aged parents they had to join scouts so they could get the Eagle for getting into better colleges. I wondered then, what are we doing here? The Eagle hangs above Troops like a dark spring cloud ready to burst. We adults control the program of how a boy can grow to be a man and work to be an Eagle. The best and most fun Troops in our Council seem to the ones who build a program around the other 98% of the scouts. I love this scouting stuff. Barry -
eagle scouts: quality vs quantity
Eagledad replied to scottsuny's topic in Open Discussion - Program
Hi all Quality or Quantity is pretty much up to the unit leader. In most cases the adults control how the scout works toward Eagle. That is a given and it's been that way since the beginning of Boy Scouts. But what has changed is direction of National on our program. Until 20 or so years ago, scouting was about skills and leadership. Use to, scouts learned skills to be good leaders and those who wanted more (about 2% of the population) went on to get Eagle. I remember well when First Class rank was considered it's own honor because that was proof of maturity in the troop. Now it means the scout can join a regular patrol. Look at the program now and you see encouragement by National to get the new scout to First Class in one year. While scouts still have to learn skills to get to rank, time is more important than expertise of individual skill. A scout controlling his own destiny is being taken out of the equation. Advancement is becoming more important than the skills required to get the ranks. Why the shift in First Class Scouts, because of numbers. The BSA says that scouts who get first class in one year are more likely to stay for several years. National says we have more Eagles because we retain more scouts. Maybe that's true, but let's hope that Eagle Scouts have the same respect in 20 years that they have now. Barry -
>>As long as National encourages and does not require, we will not look like a BSA training video. I'd like to have a fully-uniformed Troop, but without a BSA hammer, it's only wishful thinking.
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>>"Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings.
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Good morning All A lot is always assumed and said from adults about scouts should wear the Uniform. Sometimes we can get a different perspective on things by asking the same questions from in a different way. 1. Uniform is one of Eight Methods that help us work toward the Three Aims of Scouting, Character, Fitness and Citizenship. What traits of Character, or Fitness, or Citizenship does the Uniform help us give the boys? 2. I'm not sure how many here have read it, but the Scout Handbook section on Uniform tells the scout what a Full Uniform should have and when to wear it. If the Scout Handbook is different from what we adults say, what should the scout do? I hope these are fun questions. Barry