Eagledad

>>As Bob White has pointed out, there are Venture Patrols and there are Venturing Crews. A Venturing Crew is a BSA unit separate entirely of Boy Scouts. A Crew may be all male, all female or Coed.

Hi All I have a saying that our district is starting to repeat. If you cant run a program without the Venture Patrol, what makes you think you can run one with a Venture Patrol? Please dont misunderstand, Im not a glass half-empty guy, but I believe that the proposed Troop Venture Patrol by National is the most destructive part of a troop program in the BSA because it is applied as a fix to a problem instead of an additional opportunity to enhance program. After a few years working with other troops, our district Venturing Chairman now agrees. Btps, you need to understand that a Troop structure is naturally designed for the scouts to grow with the maturity of the program and to become the leaders and role models of the Troop. Where Troops seem to fail is when the Troop program doesnt mature with the older boys and they become trapped in an immature program that becomes boring and belittling. When adults see teenagers dreading program, they automatically think the boys have outgrown the Troop activities and younger scouts. They create a Venture Patrol with the idea the raised excitement and risk of the activities will keep the older guys in the troop. But! rappelling is only fun so many times. These Troops find later that not only are the guys still bored standing around the meetings, but now the junior leadership is less mature and requires more adult intervention. The older scout role models arent around anymore the younger scouts to learn from and when they are, their attitudes are not what we want the younger scouts to see. The maturity of the whole troop falls two years and the adults have to take over more and more. I have watched this scenario played over and over. There is nothing wrong with a Venturing Patrol. But let me suggest a few other ideas to get your older boy program aligned. Keep you older scouts in patrols as long as you can. Every time a scout has to jump to a new patrol, he automatically is the low man on the pole and has to start over earning his way to leader. And Role modeling is at least 80 to 90% of boy growth. If you take the role models out of the patrols, you will see your leadership become less mature and younger. You will also see the adults have to get more involve to maintain any quality in you program. I found cooking is a great measuring stick here. Watch the quality of the food of your patrols. IF they get worse, I am willing to bet the older scouts arent around. Dont set any age requirements in your activities. Instead set maturity and experience requirements. BSA says you can have Venture Patrol at 13, but we have to ask Bob White where that number came from. Why would you keep a 12-year-old bike racer out of a 100 mile biking trek when he is probably the most qualified scout to do it. Allow any scout after the first year to join any Venture Crew he can qualify for, but only for the length of time that crew exists. Once the trek is over, you go back to your regular Patrol. I know what your thinking, most scouts will jump into Venture Treks as soon as they can, but you will find that maturity and experience will limit most scouts until they are 13 or 14 in most cases. And whats wrong with a 12 year old crew that organizes for a couple of months to plan a trip to Six Flags. It's pretty cool to watch. Now for you older scout program. Learn these two sayings. ""Your job in this troop is to put the adults out of a job". And, "dont do for a scout anything he can learn to do himself". Boys naturally are attracted to personal challenges. It's true and adults have a hard time thinking boys can do adults jobs. Experience proves that a 16-year-old boy is pretty much a man and can do anything an adult is willing to give up. Push you older scouts into mature responsibilities. There is no reason why an older scout cant work with the advancement chairman, or Planning Chairman or even the Troop Treasure. Create apprentice positions. Scouts do most of our Web Site. Why shouldnt a scout who has been in the troop for several years advise all the Cheer masters, grub masters, or Quarter masters. Can an adult really do it better? Also, allow the older scouts to be adults. Talk to them like adults, treat them like adults and hold them accountable to the maturity of adults. IF you see a new scout running barefoot in camp right in front of the 16 JASM, dont jump on the new scout, hold the JASM accountable to his responsibility. Let the older scouts act like older scouts. We have several older scouts with jobs. They cant make a whole meeting, but they will help do what they can if they adults allow. We had several JASMs who could only make the first 30 minutes of the meeting. So we created a plan where they did their job before the meeting or in the first 30 minutes. I can give more suggestions as this thread moves along, but my point is this, creating a Venture Patrol to solve your bord older scout problem will not fix your problem. Fix your problem first by maturing your program so the older Scouts feel challenged in your Troop mentally and physically. Dont take them away from the younger scouts because you automatically lower the quality of the whole program. Let the younger scout watch the older scouts. Listen to you older scouts, they complain about the program of 12 year olds, so dont make them do 12-year-old program. Make them teach, change it, advance it, but dont make them repeat it. One example is having your older scout plan a Trooporee. They invite three other troops to do a mini-camporee all planned and ran by your older scouts. They will learn planning and leadership skills like you wouldnt believe from this experience. Your troop will mature and the other troops will really enjoy the program. Once your older scouts are feeling challenged, then create temporary Venture Patrols designed for additional activities. Use the Venture Patrol to plan and ready the scout for the activity like going to Philmont, then kill it after the activity is over and start another one. You might have as many as five Venture Patrols running at the same time for activities and the next year only one. If the Venture Patrols take to many scouts from the regular patrols, then have them meet separately because patrol method is the highest priority for scout growth, not jumping into different patrols. Make it fun, make it work, but dont take away from the methods. I know that the BSA is only trying to help Troops mature with Venture Patrols, but in most cases, Ive seen them planned incorrectly and actually forcing the troop to become more dependent on adults. I wish National would instead teach adults to encourage how to grow into a more mature program. As I said before, if you dont have a good older scout program before a Venture Patrol, why do you think it will be better after? Boys need mental and physical challenges. Learn and practice giving them those challenges. Give them the responsibilities of adults. It works very well. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>you can go to any carpet store and buy a few feet of non-skid material. This is the stuff that carpet installers put underneath an area rug.

>>We see the board of review differently. I see it as a review of what scouting has shared with the scout and what the scout has shared with scouting. Some see it as a challenge or gauntlet for the scout to run. Others use it to see if the scout can think on his feet.

HI All You have to motivate scouts to do something, or not do something. We allow scout to talk so long as they don't disrupt other scouts. Once that happens, they get a warning. From there its a matter of creativity. The best thing that worked for me was a midnight hike. No one yells or gets upset, we just ask the scouts to get their shoes on and go for a hike. Along the way we talk about the stars, night critters and so on. Eventally at a quiet place far from camp (about a mile for me) we sit and spend a few minutes on Friendly, Curtious and Kind. And obediance. You know. Then we hike back to camp. I never seem to have trouble with that group again. But if you do, then maybe up an hour eariler to collect fire wood or start the fire. Since they kept us up, it's only fair they allow us to sleep in. If you have the patience, this works pretty good. Like I said no yelling, no getting up set, just a quiet way to motivate a change. Has worked most of the time. Usually I allow the SPL to give two three warnings, but after that, I get the boys up and tell them to "take a hike". Scouting Cheers Barry

Hi Bob, Thanks for the reply. >>I have never pushed hard for Scoutmasters to do the First Class emphasis program..... The BSA pushes hard for it..... I push hard for Scoutmasters to manage the BSA's program correctly.

Hi All One of the adults in our crew was complaining how he keeps sliding off his Therm-a-rest. I've seen this brought up before, but since I don't use one, I don't remember how to fix that. Andy Ideas? Barry

Hi Mike Just for fun, would you mind giving us your list for a 10 day trip. I would enjoy comparing. Do you have any tricks to shave a few ounces? Barry

>>i feel like I shouldnt have to constantly remind them what they should be doing

Hey thanks guys. I might be able to trim a little fat off that pack if I look hard, starting with an LCD flashlight. But I was just looking at the Philmont guide and it suggest 20 to 25 lbs with basically the same gear. They also suggest max pack weight to be 30% of my body weight. Hmmm, I think I feel my knees starting to hurt Mark. These are great days. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All I've never weighed my pack in past yearse, but I guess I'm getting old and I'm watching the ounces a lot closer. Our Philmont crew met lastnight for a final pack check. Without water, food or Philmont crew gear, my pack weighs about 35 lbs. Is that good, average or bad? I'm guessing another 15 to 20 lbs for the rest from Philmont. Barry

Hi Ryan Good Stuff Bob. Also, what is your program? Sixth graders require a busy FUN program, not long lecturing ones. Are you setting any kind of goals for the group? For example, what would you like to improve in your Patrols and patrol leaders? Setting up camp, breaking camp? Teach them how and then have games to see who does it the best and the fastest. Can they do this on their own or do they require a little pushing or pulling. What about meals, or knots or lashings. Pick a subject, I was just reading about orientation and five-mile hike. That can even be a meeting. So, sit down with the PLC and SM and set a goal of teaching learning something like orientation. Your program is teaching the skill for about 15 minutes and then doing a game to practice that skill. Our Troop likes to go to a local park where we set up a course. Others do neighborhoods and so on. Get away from your normal meeting place and go to the park, lake or even the field behind the church. I get my scouts in the habit of asking, "Was that FUN?", "IF not, WHY?". "HOW do we CHANGE it?". It might not be that they are hyper sixth graders so much, it could be a bit of boredom. So have some fun and build a FUN program. Ask them how to make your five-minute Opening fun, your program theme fun and the games. Use your handbooks, and take each step in SMALL fun bite size chunks. Make the Flag ceremony something new and fun. Closing the same. Make sure you have a SM minute, it might be boring for you, but as a SM, I love them. OK, just for fun, tell you SM he has ONE minute and time him. Once you get to that point, you will find your scouts looking forward to scouts and wanting more. OK, what questions do you have from these few post? Barry

Hi Eagle Foot What ever you choose, stay or not, you have improved the program by bringing this problem up front. I hope you stay. My prayers and thoughts are this burdon will be taken off of you. Barry

Hi Bob Good discussion. On the First year scouts to first class, you push pretty hard for the SM to control this part of the Scouts experience. But I think this is off topic and we can continue it under a different subject. On the Youth Protection, there we several different responses to the one question. Most gave the same text reference to their own answer, but no one seem to have THE answer and it was left to how each individual interpret the text and their training. I think this is the best you can expect nationally and I think that is expected by National as well. So if we vary in our interpretation of the training material, then how does one go from Council to Council and maintain quality. I think it has to come from other sources in the District all working together. You gave a few "Good" reasons for starting this post, but after working at the unit, district and council level positions, I'm not sure you can get much better results than you already have unless you make every course an online course where the human element falls out. Even then interpretation becomes personal. So what is plan B to your plan A for improving training. My suggestion is pushing National to look at Commissioners. That is not and easy solution to me, but I have gone through many exercises looking to improve certain aspects of membership, training and even better information to units. While I use to have very little respect for commissioners, I've learned it was the quality of our local program I disrespected, not the designed position itself. I keep finding myself adding new positions to fix problems like the BSA added the unit trainer. Then I wonder, why not try to use what we have? My plan B is get the commissioners back to work. National is changing cub and troop program, so change the commissioner program to work better. I like the motivation of your post because to some degree I have already been there. But I've tried much of what you propose and I believe we are close to humanly possible to getting as good as it gets with training, on a Council or larger size scale. So I'm just suggesting other options along with your options. Sorry for the long way around, sometimes I tend to paint the picture before I present it with a frame so that folks can see my motivations. If you could add a plan B to your Plan A for these problems, what would it be? Scouting Cheers Barry

Hi Laura Our prayers are with you. Barry

>>I have never seen an eagle factory that was lead by youth. Eagle factories are the by-product of adult egotism. You cannot have the majority of your scouts working on the same merit badges at the same time, and running merit badge classes during troop meetings while making any claim to being a functioning scouting program.

>>A good trainer teaches the BSA program not the program they lead as a leader.>or if they did get chosen, the topics they presented were controlled by the training coordinator.

>>When the boys know there is always going to be an adult there to "bail them out" or worse, override their decisions, they tend to get lazy or disinterested.

>>Why do you think homosexuals should or should not be banned from Scouting?

>>. I also think it builds more positive relationships between the youths and adults. Shouldn't "...help other people at all times..." apply to us, too?

>>Just look at the wide variety of methods expressed on this board from similarly trained leaders all using the same book. The reason I believe is that too many trainers each alter the course "just a little" then the person who is trained alters it a little more, and so on down the line until what happens at the unit level resembles scouting in uniform only.

$89.99 at Campmor. A little pricy for a stove and we only bought two at first to try them out. But after six month testing by the Venture Patrol, we got one for every patrol. Well worth it. They make up for the prices that you can use them for your high-adventure treks. We had so many problems with the Coleman Dual-Fuel Camping stoves. We had several fires from over pumping where no one was hurt, but they sure woke us up. We converted to propane for safey, but they still seem to require constant maintenance. We had to take a spare every campout. About thsi time the troop wanted to get away from the heavy patrol boxes, so we decided to find a new stoves. We stumbled on to Coleman Exponent. Buy one and let each patrol try it out for a campout. I think you will like them. It takes little while for the scouts to relize how little flame they need to boil water. Our patrols use to go through two bottles a campout, now some can get two campouts out of one bottle. We generally go through about three for a week of wilderness camping. That is useing two burners most of the time. Barry

HI We also use the 2 burner Expeditions. Our Troop converted to Troop Light five years ago to get rid of the patrol boxes. We wanted to be a troop that could pack everyting to our campouts. We have use seven of these stoves every month for four years. They have also been to Philmont, Pecos Wilderness, Spanish Peaks and a few other Backpaking treks, Northern tier Canoe trips and loaned out for personal campouts. They have worked well at 12000 ft and 10 degrees below zero. They have been stepped on, kick on, tossed around, left in the rain and dropped in the lake and all seven of our stoves still work great. I believe they are the safest stove a scout could use. I'm not trying to sell the stove, just give you our experience with them. If anyone is at Philmont between June 19 and 30th, look for Troop 386 and we will show it to you. Great Boy Scout backpacking stove. Have a great scouting week. Barry

>>Small Scouts & big knives don't mix well.

Good Morning Ed. What safety issue do they state? I once ask a camp director in another council about the sheath knife restriction. He said it was a Council Policy and did not know why. Nothing was said about safety. We once had a discussion on the safety issue of sheaths hanging on belts, but it was brought out that many adults and scouts are allowed to wear the pocket tools, even flash lights in sheaths. I not challenging you Ed, but saying safety doesnt make sense. I feel it must only be a response to image. I rarely carry a knife and only a small pocket knife if Im alone in the woods. So its not personal. I beleive sheath knives to be as safe, if not a little safer than some of the pocket knives that we consider acceptable. If a camp thinks sheath knives are less safe, fine. But explain how and why. They permit saws, which have the most injuries of scouting woods tools, and axes, which require more skill. But not a sheath knife? Thanks for your reply, have a great scouting day. Barry