Eagledad

>>No, not every boy needs to be an Eagle...if their mind is set to learn, enjoy, teach, participate, and as some do...lead.

"On the down side, I do have some concerns that when the Leader who signed up as a Tiger Parent and has stuck it out as a Den Leader with their son sees this, they might think that they do not have the skills to carry on. " Hi All Iv'e stated several times that this is a valid problem. I found in our district that burned out adults acccounted for at least 60 to 75 precent of the Webelos who don't cross over. I don't see the new Webelos requirements having much effect one way or another on this problem. I agree these are positive changes for the Webelos and I think will add some fun to their program. Barry

>>And you might not have even realized it. You might have thought you were letting the boy make the decision.

>>And that is a darned good reason for SM conferences being held more often than just for rank advancement.

I agree with everything you said FOG. A troop is only as boy run as the adults allow it to be. Adults basically work with scouts from three directions; fear, self-serving or serving. Some adults grow to serve through training and guidence from other experienced leaders. Others have one objective in mind and stick to their plan. I don't have much trouble with 13-year-old Eagles if they stay with the program because with or without the Eagle, they will still grow up and learn. Program has a lot to do with it. 90% of our Eagles are 16 or older. I think 30% of them get their Eagle within a couple months of their 18th birthday. They say they are very busy doing that scouting stuff. This is a great program for building men of integrity, if only we can teach that adults that better. Scouting Cheers. Barry

Hi All Saltheart said it all very well, thanks Saltheart. I found that about 5% or less of all the scouts have the drive, skills and natural talents to be a 13 or 14 year old Eagle. The rest need some help from others. You don't want a program that prevents young Eagles, but I also find that many troops beleive if the scout isn't life by 14, then they are hopeless. I don't agree that the parents are the problem. It's the adult leadership. Parent want what is best for their kids based off what they know about the program. How many Troops brag about their Eagle numbers to visiting Webelos Families? I had several sets of parents who ahd the drivers license carrot attitude and I sat down with all of them. After many many talks, most turned to our way of thinking that their son will do the best he can. In most cases, the scouts got eagle. If you're a troop that beleives letting the scout build his on trail of life, then you need to preach it, teach it, harpe on it and guide the parents. When I handed my SM hat to the next person, I told him that 50% of his job is working with the adults. Oh, and yes I lost a few familys to other troops because they only wanted the fast track to Eagle. But, our troop averages one Eagle every month, so you will find when you have a solid program with integrity, the parents can and will follow a program like that. I guess I'm trying to say that if you beleive the adults are the problem, then start teaching and guiding them. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Good Morning All If I have not learned anything else in my adult life, I've learned that our children are a result of our societys expectations of them. Our children are a reflection of their mentors (us). This discussion fits very well with the "A question came to mind" subject under Issues and Politics. I feel we live in a generation afraid of judging behavoir. Without judgement, accountiblity is only in the eye of the beholder. Barry

Good morning all. I don't think we should be afraid of the word punishment. It has it's place in scouting. But Im one that got hammered on this forum when discipline was taken out of context of the discussion. Ignoring that, it's entirely appropriate to use a MB as a guideline for teaching. Some MBs are very good and they are an easy resource for scouts to obtain. We have a first-aid theme every year and we use the First-aid MB book because it is very good. That doesnt mean our scouts have to signup for the MB. The reason the idea of making the entire troop attend a class like this is to assure everyone, parents, scouts and adult leaders that we all understand proper handling and safety. Those are not additional requirements because this in not about advancement. I wish more units would do this. I saw one adult nearly burn down a camp at an AO event because he was very stupid and had no clue about fire safety. I still cringe when I think about him. As for punishment, I don't think we should be afraid of the word. It has its place in scouting. But Im one that got hammered on this forum when it was taken out of context of the discussion. Part of growing for all of us is being accountable and learning from our actions. Our job as adults in scouting is working with the scouts to be accountable so they learn from their actions and struggles, including situations of bad behavior. Where we adults seem to have trouble is our lack of imagination and our tendency to react with emotion, which can make us want the scout feel our pain. We have to watch giving some kind of punishment just to make us feel better. What we should do is get creative and help the scout grow from HIS action of accountability. We adults should not let emotion drive our guidance toward a scouts actions. We dont defend his action as boys are just boys or that the other guy forced him into it. We dont take it personally. If we do feel that way, we ask everyone take a break until we can deal with the situation without emotions directing the action. Sometimes that means sending a scout home. Not as a punishment, but a time out for everyone. Then we adults find a way that all parties grow from this situation and be accountable. I had a scout once who misbehaved so badly on at outing at an Air Force Base that we were asked to never come back. Our PLC handled that by planning and running a two-week program to all the scouts on proper behavior. Only one scout caused the problem but I wanted the PLC to work with the whole troop because none of the scouts stopped that scout from his behavior. I felt there needed to be an alignment of understanding. It was done well and the scouts had fun. The scout who caused the problem was asked by the PLC to send a letter to the Base Commander and apologize for his behavior. He was also asked to help the PLC learn what we could do to get in good favor again. Was that letter a an act of accountability? Did the scout learn something positive from the exercise that he would take with him forever? Was that a reaction of emotions or a logical method of helping the scout grow? So how do we handle accountablility (punishment?). I believe the person who needs the accountability has to voluntarily take the action. The adults need to present the idea of accoutitblity as a positive lesson for life, but even more important, they need to get creative and come up with ways to do that. The adults should not get emotional and not act until they can rationally look at the whole situation. Once you start running your troop like this you will find a lot of respect for your program. Got to go. Scouting Cheers. Barry

I see. The committee picks the SM, if they don't like the SM's program, they pick another one. So the committee is OK. I agree the scouts don't have to sign up for the MB, but you do have the right to use the MB as a guideline for your course and expect the PLC ask all the scout to attend for fire safety. I asked our PLC to do this very thing when we had a weekend of bad fire safety practices and they learned a lot. The PLC even invited the local Fire Dept. to bring a fire truck for the scouts to tour. The adults and PLC must and are required to provide a safe place where all parents can trust the scouts and the troop adults to use proper fire safety techniques. This is a test of strength of your committee. The call has been made, stand by it. If you need some help, call the DE, DC and UC. Have them talk with this guy. Most people will be impressed by your troops response. They will support you. Scouting is a wonderful program for our sons until the adults get involved. Scouting Cheers Barry

Great Wednesday all I think the adults reaction was wonderful for the situation. I would hesitate calling it a punishment because you are encouraging the scouts to learn why the behavior was wrong, and proper handling of a dangerous tool. You are also giving them a choice. For the youth to gain independence and grow in running the troop, they have to have the trust of the adults. Learning about fire safety is helping both the adults grow in their trust of the scouts, and growth of the boys learning how to act more mature in similar situations. So I would try to keep growth and punishment in their own categories. Now I believe post here is really about an adult problem. If your committee doesnt stand together now and talk with this adult, your problems will not end. The committee has to confront the other adult about his behavior. Explain to him why the committee is choosing the action they have given to the scouts, AND that he has a choice to accept it or not participate in the program. It is important that he gets a choice. We found that when adults are given a choice and held to that choice, they dont feel trapped into lashing back, but either conform or leave. But you have to do it now and you have to get everyone on the committee stand together. This is one of those annoyances that you can nip in the bud if you take action now. I would also inform your UC and DE about this so that you have records and a third party that can give an unbiased opinion and support. I know this seems like a lot for just one adult, but for some reason our Troop has had more than its share of over dominating adults lately and when we handled it this way, the adults solve the problems for us. Parents have to learn that they cant push the program around to make if fit just their son. If every parent does that, it would be pure chaos and nobody gets anything from this great program. Good luck Barry

>>Boys are still boys, and sometimes they get curious and need a little jolt of direction.

>>I wanted him to really enjoy this time away, but I guess his expectations (or maybe it was my expectations)were too high.

>>they require the exercise (and learning) of skills, they are close to nature and the Scouts love them.

We use to use and liked the timberlines. Good quality, easy to set up and you can backpack with them. But you won't see that many used by troops in Oklahoma because they don't hold well in our big winds. We really liked the Timberline 4 and the back door is great, but that one is so tall compared to it's footprint that it was impossible in the wind. Most Domes will hold up pretty good in the winds. The couple things we have learned from the different tents we used are get a four corner tent because the round ones waste a lot of space. When found that four scout can fit comfortably in a four corner 10X10 but barely three fit in a 10 ft. diameter round tent. Unless you find a couple scouts who sleep in the shape of half-moons. And if possible, don't get a tent with a door where you have to step over the zipper because eventally someone will trip over the door and break the zipper. One other thing, there are some Web Sites out there that sell used or seconds. I bought a few Colemans that way and saved a lot of money. I think we are trying out some tents from tentonsale.com now, but I don't know which one or how they have been performing. Scouting Cheers Barry

>>A troop can complete the outdoor activity requirement for the Quality Unit award by doing a week at summer camp and 5 hikes, or other outdoor activities.

>>Barry, I think I aught to leave defending you to you. Sorry if I've misrepresented you in any way. You haven't said that, but I know I've been acting as if I understand your position. Hope I wasn't too far off. Mark

>>after reading my post then you missed the whole point of my post and I am quite chagrined and vexed in my inability to lucidly delineate the context of my essay.

>>But please, can we get over myth FCFY demands artificial advancement?

Great response Mark I agree with most of your reply. I don't know if what we really have here is conflict of presentations or respect of possible solutions. I do believe a forum is an avenue of presenting lots of ideas allowing the adult to determine the best possible solution to their situation. On this subject, Pack899 is concerned that the advancement is going to fast thus the quality of the program is not giving the boy the best possible program. There could be cause for concern if the scouts are not learning the skills that are presented in the advancement part of the program because the habits developed learning those skills are very important for leadership later in the scouts life. I find that most of the skills a 14 years old and above scout uses while he is a leader were learned in his first three years of scouting. If a boy is rushed through learning his knots, first-aid and cooking, he will miss out on developing the skills of setting goals, initiating a schedule to meet those goals, and the since of a accomplishment once the goal is met. Youth leaders who don't have those leadership skills tend to act lazy and need lots of support from adults. They aren't really lazy so much as they don't know how to get started. These are the scouts who tend to raise their voice under stress and dont come to as many activities because they are afraid of their performance. They fall behind in their duties and many times just don't show up. So I believe scouts skills in the first couple of years are critical. What you have to watch for Pack899 is how the Troop presents the classes and signs off on the skills. If all the scouts are herded in a room, the skills are taught and then all the scouts leave with that skill completed, then that is of some concern. Instead make an announcement that a knots class will be presented next week, next campout, on Sunday, whenever. Ask the scouts to write that down if they want to learn that skill. Now you are encouraging setting a goal and initiating on that goal. If he comes, it's on his plan, not the troops. If he comes, he will be rewarded by learning a cool new skill and eventally advancing. As he accomplishes the one goal, he should be asked (pushed a little) to set another goal. Write that goal down in his book and even suggest he prepare a plan in his head. It could be learning two more knots or getting second class. By the time he reaches first class, he will have set dozens of small goals and initiated on them dozens of times. He will have learned a few leadership habit most adults struggle with. All the troop needs to do is make sure they don't push the scout through the ranks, but instead teach the boy how to set his path and work toward his goals. The adults should care less about the scouts goals, but focus on his ability to get there by himself. You will find some boys goals will be two years in getting second class. So long as he is imitating on his plan, he is fine. Does this sound like it makes a little sense? Barry

>>Eagledad, Your entire post is based on a false premise.>Nowhere in the BSA resources or in any post I have ever written on this topic have I said anything that puts advancement before program.>I have begged for leaders to follow the program and the adventure and youth leadership promised them in the Boy Scout Handbook. If you provide the program that the Scout Handbook promises to boys the advancement would happen constantly and naturally>The vast majority of posts on this forum are from leaders who want to change the program or complain about the program, when in deed they have never used the program.>Why arent more posters asking "how do I make this come alive" rather than "here is what we should kill"? >First Class Emphasis is a written plan on how to make the first year for a scout exciting, fun and productive. The methods of Advancement, Outdoors, Youth Leadership, and the Patrol Method all help to extend and develop the program until the scout turns 18. And yet, many leaders on this board dont use it. Instead they flood this forum with complaints that boys dont have good attendance, quit the first year or when they turn 16, dont want to lead, dont know how to lead, don't retain skills. When will they see that it is the adult leader's refusal to embrace the program that has caused every problem they have experienced?>The problem is in the mirror, the answer is in the scouting program. >I am really disappointed that you would misrepresent me so completely. In what explanation of the First Class Emphasis program or any other post did I ever say advance at any cost?>Of course we lose the most boys the first year. Troops that do not employ the New Scout Patrol and the First Class Emphasis Program lose scouts by the droves.>It is not a poor program it is that some units impliment it poorly. >In the future please be gracious enough to ask my opinion rather than tell it to me. >There are about 7 or 8 posters on this board who really know their stuff. > But they spend most their posts defending scouting from the vast arrray of complainers who want to change a program they have yet to learn how to do. >There are also some very vocal ones that when it comes to the real program are in a complete fog and wouldn't recognize good scouting if it bumped into them.>The hope for the others is that they are able to tell the difference, and begin asking for help rather than feed the complainers.

>>BSA does not have any specs on ice climbing.

>>Units that use it see the difference, units that don't whine that kids have to many conflicting activities.

>>They can be very 'adult' like in their discussions.

Ah! That makes since Rooster. Still, isn't our job to help them through their struggles. I'm one to not hide tempation, but help them develope the disapline to deal with it. I don't disagree with your approach, we all have our own styles of doing this scouting stuff. Thanks for the explination. One other question, I think I've seen our scouts with them, but what are these magic cards? Scouting Cheers Barry

>>Second, I would not allow the game playing (Magic, cards, etc.) until after the last merit badge session.