Eagledad

>>Perhaps I'm just out of step with the 'new' definitions that society attaches to wrods here and there. But that's alright with me. I kinda like the old ones.

>>Furthermore, it appears that the gift of the candy bar was conditional i.e., it was a true bribe. >To make matters worse, most 12 year-olds do not recognize the real value of their vote. Many would willingly accept the short-term gratification of a candy bar and suffer the long-term consequences of selecting the wrong candidate.

>>When problems arise you will find more success by stepping toward the recommended scouting methods not by stepping further away.

>>I could start with 'bribery', Barry.

>>Well, you've recognized that the fault(s) lie in more than one place. But these are just kids we're dealing with here, and they're subject to that kind of thing. That's why we do what we do as leaders to help instill values that might eliminate the need to discuss these things with them as they grow.

>>The quiet, polite, non-assuming boys get advanced quickly with no regard to actual leadership. One quiet 12 yr old boy used his position of Troop Bugler to advance to Life, even though he never bugled at anything! The more rambunctious, out-going, in the middle of everything boys are told they have to wait.

Hi Mainescouter I would love to visit Maine. >>Your statement about leadership maturity not being a limitation toward rank and advancement... what is that based on?

Good day all >>The BSA believes that leadership is a learned skill and not a residual characteristic of maturity.> Also how would you objectively measure maturity and make it an equal measurement throughout a national program? The best measurement of maturity in a scout is scout spirit, his ability to live by the values of the Oath and Law.

>>What ever medication you are taking it's either not enough or way too much. Absurd comments like that do nothing to further the discussion or to develop a better understanding of the scouting methods.

Good morning MaineScouter Isn't this forum a great place to camp or what? I guess I will be the devil in the discussion though. I hate that! But while what you describe first comes of as Egos out of control, I get more of the feeling that your troop is being run with good intension guided by ignorance. Ignorance is a lot easier to change than the self-serving desire to be Caesar. It's true that the relationship between the CC, SM and Council President is wrong, not to mention just plain dangerous for all. But, this just might be a scouting family with the passion of Baden Powell looking to do the best job they can. And actually for me you paint a SM with a good heart, just bad practices. I get the feeling his goals a noble, but he lacks the skills. For example, you say he is frustrated with scouts meeting requirements to fast. Just about every SM I know goes through this phase of scout mastering because you have to test the limits to know where they are. It feels to me like your scoutmaster just needs more coaching and training. I guess I am a glass half full kind of guy, but I've worked with a lot of well-intentioned adults with wonderful hearts and terrible technique. They just need a little guidance. As for you, you are getting a lot of good advice here and ammunition to come out looking like the white knight. But in reality if you come in too strong and start pushing your female weight around the good ole boys.. Well maybe you can see what Im getting to. Oh, by the way, watch out throwing out that Good Old Boy phrase, because that puts you in a them against me place that you will never change. How about seeking to be one of boys and teaching them how WE can be part of a Great team. What your troop needs right now is information and training. It needs facts to push out the myths and old bad habits. Start researching and learning. Find the BSA documents that explain the policies and procedures of running a troop. Go to training and if the adults seem to resist that for some reason, bring the trainers to the troop. Find and hour here and there to get expert help on BORs or committee policies. Suggest finding another troop that can help coach your SM, and suggest scouting forums as a source to ask for help. Have patience and pick your battles because in reality these folks need to be your friends. Like working with scouts, I would rather assume these folks to be good, just misguided. Once you get the boulder rolling, momentum will do the rest. Be deliberate in your assistance to the troop, but have patience because you will first be seen as just a woman without much experience. It will take time to build a trust that you arent so much an ambitious adult using the troop to feel powerful. But instead a humble servant looking to build a program for everyones sons, Get the BSA resources, read them and ask us questions. Find a local friend that can help your unit. Be bold and make your case. Be humble and let facts push out ignorance. Give your adults benefit of doubt. I hope I havent come on too strong. You have received a lot of great advice in the last couple of days. This is a great campfire. Scouting is the best program going when it works. My years of scouting experience have taught me that when we adults try too hard, the boys will see scouting is great place to be until the adults get involved. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Found this in a history of BSA ranks. ((1911 Eagle Requirements The BSA adds three higher ranks for earning merit badges beyond First Class: Life, Star, and Eagle (Star was switched before Life in 1924, apparently because the five points of the Star could symbolize the five merit badges required for the rank))). Hope this helps. Strange question to hold up a scout though. That is one tough troop. Barry

The last thing I tell my students at SM Specific is I don't think we are standing in this particular place at this moment by accident. We have purpose and we've been queued in a direction to make a difference. Your courage has that purpose and who knows how many of us are better from it? Who knows how many of our sons will be become better men from it? Thanks dsteel. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>It's nice to have old timers tell you their opinion (especially when it agrees with yours).

>>It's a valuable undertaking for those who teach and guide. It can insure that the means and methods we use are, indeed, getting the message through to the boys.

>>Just letting them plan it has gotten the last three trips cancelled.

Good Morning All Laura and Hops_scout, I say this with the deepest respect from my heart, if you really believe this is just boys being boys, then you have set your expectations way to low. Have you never seen an adult election where the most popular person was elected because none of the candidates stood out otherwise? These kinds of elections happen when the people voting don't see a difference in the choices. In the troop, that generally that means the adults have been doing too much of the work and not allowing the scouts to see what happens when a bad leader takes run things. If you don't see or understand bad performance, how are you motivated to seek good leaders? The pendulum must swing both ways. The same goes for OA, if scouts don't take pride in the requirements to be voted in AO, then whats wrong with electing anyone or everyone. There must be a since of pride that comes with responsibility. Pride usually comes from feeling good about yourself, which comes from hard work and doing a good job among your peers. Sagascout, you have a more difficult problem because of the dad. 50% of good scoutmastering is the adults. Your job is hard because you must talk to him. Don't tell him your feelings so much as be frank and tell him about his sons. For whatever reason, he is forcing his sons to do something they have no desire to do and your program is suffering. Explain to him that leadership development is about giving boys and opportunity to work hard, struggle and grow. That requires scouts motivated and willing to work and struggle, not scouts who feel trapped and want out. Leadership responsibilities should be seen opportunities, not a death sentence. You need his help with the problem, so present the situation that way. Second, a program shouldn't fall completely with the failure of one leader. How is the ASPL? Does he have the maturity and experience to learn how to write a meeting agenda and run the PLC meetings? Maybe this is the window opening is developing the PLC to spread its responsibilities a bit. Maybe the ASPL can take on the task of planning. You are not trapped, just in a dark place finding your way. Im sure there are other suggestions from the great ones on the list. Does this help any?

Hi River2K I agree with FScouter that scoutmastering will improve your weaker skills and enhance your strong ones. Here are a few things to ask. What is the one thing you want every boy to gain from your leadership? What are your goals? What do you want to change? Everyone is different and has something they want to add or take away to make the program better. If not, then maybe your not motivated enough to be my son's role model. Relize that 50% of your job is working with and developing adults. That will be a challeng on your quiet side and your patience. Don't take this lightly, adults are just as hard headed as boys. On the good side though, a quiet SM is better because he has to work closely with the SPL and allow him to work the troop. Scouts tend to gain the traits of the SM and a quiet mannerism forces scouts to learn personal skills for difficult situations instead of yelling. I hate yelling. Rewards? Kind of hard to explain, but it's when a scout learns to control a PLC or Patrol meeting. When one stops to help and elderly person mow the lawn while collecting food for the food bank. The shy boy who barely says two words his first year becomes an SPL three years later and voted to be the an OA Lodge Chief. The scout who says his leadership skills helped him get in a college. How about the scout who saves a life and gives all the credit to the skills he learned in his troop. There are nights you won't sleep from a frustrating meeting, but then there are the nights you can't sleep because of the successes. You have the opportunity to change lives, to make better fathers, husbands and civic leaders. The chance to give someone else that one piece of wisdom that will get them ahead in life. Scoutmastering will give you grey hair, but also a since satisfaction. You will be changed for life. Good luck in what ever you choose, but the golden ring isn't offered everyday. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>do you have ideas of other questions that I might use to help draw him out and get him to think?

>>Bottom line is that you are right, I should have done better, but I didn't know how and failed (though it seemed I did ok at the time) with this particular boy.

>>Many spouses have asked me for a definintion of "overly active." Any suggestions?

>>Telling is rarely leading and it rarely has lasting effects. Scouting teaches 4 styles of leadership. Many adults seem to only use one.

>>If children don't need adult guidance, again I ask why adult leaders are needed, >A simple solution to this, dear boy, is that you do it your way, and I do it mine.

>>I don't hardly hold with this apparent modernistic liberal trend of allowing children to be in complete control of everything they do.

>>A grown man is generally going to carry more weight with a boy than another boy. >But, to use our current example, if the SPL takes 30 minutes to get the boys to be quiet so the SM can talk, he isn't doing his job. >Also, in such a situation the SM can give a talk to the rest of the troop regarding respect for the SPL.

>>Note to Barry -- upon further review, this may sound like I'm ragging on you and the Scout in your post. I'm not. I'm just using you post as a starting point for my thought.)>What would have been wrong if this kid was one to rip through the Eagle requirements?