Eagledad

>>I think the SM in this case handled this situation well. Signing off on this requirement at this time would be a great disservice to the Scout and could set a dangerous percedent in the Troop.

>>By the way, as SM, I have delegated the SM conference for every rank (so far up to 1st Class) for one boy in our troop, my son. I do not need to get to know him better plus he and I have many "at home" pseudo SM conferences.

Hi Steve Boy, there is a lot that can be discussed on this subject, but let me start with a few things off the top of my head and I am confident others will join in. The SMs job is helping the scout grow in character, fitness and citizenship. The other stuff like skills, leadership and ideals are the tools or methods for the SM to induce the growth. So a scoutmaster confrences (SC) is really a check on the scout toward his growth. Not a check on can he tie the knots. Its more of finding out if he learned how to tie the knots, does he know where to go in the book to relearn the knots if he forgot them. Even, did he learn how to set a goal to learn more knots. The SC is not a time to check his skills, its a chance to check is growth. Now for those troublesome scouts, a lot of SMs think they only need to do one SC for each scout at each rank advancement. That is where the problem starts. If our job is growth, then we need to talk with the scout enough to watch the growth, and guide him in his performance. It's not really fair to watch the lazy scout who doesn't really appear to live the scout law, but not do anything about until he is ready for his BOR. Mentoring or guiding a scout is a constant process of working with the boy as he performs. You will know if the SM is doing his job if the scout is surprised by anything said in the conference. The SC before the BOR should basically be a review of past performances, conversations and conferences. The scout actually be able to tell the SM where he has improved and grown. Also, the SM should never measure a scout to himself or anyone else in growth. Trust me, I know how frustrating it can be to watch a boy just get by. But the real question is did he grow? Did he make any attempts to better himself through the discussions and conferences with the SM or other mentors? Some scouts will never achieve the ideals you have in mind for a scout. But the small gains you perceive in his performance may be huge leaps to him and his family. Imagine what you do the confidence of a scout who felt he made huge gains in his growth, but the SM said he wasnt a good enough scout yet. Know the scout and his personal abilities. Measure is personal growth. So my suggestions are frequent conferences to measure the performance gains in the scouts, and individual expectations so that each scout is measured against himself. As I said, if some of the comments given by the SM during the conference comes as a surprise to the scout, then the SM or other mentors probably were not working close enough with the scout. If you guide the scout well all during his scouting experience, he will know when he is ready for a BOR. By the way, I never prevented a scout from asking for a BOR even when I felt he wasn't ready after my SC. I advised him why I felt he wasn't ready and suggested he set some goals to improve, but I allowed him to make the decision. Barry

Hi Shell >>I don't want to take away his job but I need to do mine as well, how you do share it? Make sense?

>>Policies are the rules of the program. For instance it used to be a policy that women could not serve as Scoutmasters. That has changed. Methods are the way we reach the aims. Competition used to be a method of scouting, it no longer is, so yes the methods have changed.

>>The "methods" (meaning the content of the methods, not their identity) and the "policies" of the BSA have been changed many times and it is still the Boy Scouts.

>>Was the difference between this stage and the stage that worked the training in leadership and program?

Darn it Dan, how can I show off my superior scout savvy if you keep writing so fast. Time for me to find another forum. I can't add anything Charity, but I think you have a pretty good SM there. Patience is a golden quality that is hard to find in leaders. I said before that boy run is the willingness of adults to grow past their fears by training the scouts. But even after the training, letting the scouts step past your fear can still be bit of a leap. It's very easy to be a leader by the book when your experiences are also by the book. But that monstrous grey area of the unexpected requires courage. It's that courage that separates Scout leaders from Master Scouters. I agree with Mark, both your son and the SM are learning from this. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Great Letter, very genuine. Ive felt all along that this forum was intended to help every adult reach the level of satisfaction of scouting that you just described. I feel the same warm passion when I read MK9750s letters. And its that same kind of experience that has me saying, I love this Scouting Stuff". Wonderful letter. Barry

>>The other position is that the adults are there to watch the scouts, superverise their activities, at all times, to make sure nothing inappropriate is occuring.

Wow, leave for a few days and.... Here is what I have observed and learned. Scouts between the ages of 10 and 13 didn't really join the Troop to be leaders. Oh at first it looks cool, but after the fun has warn off, they would much rather be hanging out with the gang any playing games. I have learned that while 10 the 13 age scouts arent into being leaders, this is the age where they learn most of the leadership skills they use later in their life, at least between the age 14 and 18. So while I personally am in not hurry to give them a lot of leadership responsibility, I trying to ensure they are developing leadership skills by making sure the program is using the eight methods, especially in learning their scout skills and getting some responsibilities in their patrol and surrounded by lots of leadership role models. Anymore than that, and they kind are pretty much dependent on what the boys want. Most want to hang with the other guys and be boys. Now what I teach for adults in troops that have aged based patrols or brand new troops with just 11 year olds is this. Learn and understand the aims and methods. Study the Patrol Leaders Handbook and the SPL Handbook. I also recommend the SM Handbook. But look at the kind of program you want your scouts to have at the age of 14. Now start building habits and activities as if you have 15 year olds in the Troop. Example for our Troop has a 30-minute PLC meeting before the Troop meeting. One and a half hour Troop meeting than a 5-minute post PLC meeting. Most new SMs with 11 year-olds don't spend much time on the PLC meetings and even cut corners on the troop meetings until they feel the Scouts are old enough for those activities. But the problem is its kind of like the shock of jumping in ice water. Just as important, the adults learn a lot about the troop program by doing these mature activities even with 11 year olds. Now I'm sure you're wondering how you get 11 year olds to run the Troop meeting designed for 15 year olds. What I explain is the adults have to let the scouts run the program, but the adult fill in where the scouts maturity and experience are lacking. As the scout gains experience week by week, the adults step back step by step. Example, during the first couple of meetings with the new troop, the scoutmaster calls the PLC together after the meeting for the post PLC meeting. He asks the scouts how the meeting went. Did the scouts have fun? Did the Patrol corners go well? How can we improve or fix the problems. How can it be more fun? Those kinds of questions. But then next time the SM helps the new SPL write down these questions and lets him ask them. Likely the SM still needs to encourage the meeting a couple of times, but within a couple of months, the meeting is basically running like a 15 year old would run it. Now it's important not to have the expectations on this 11 year old that you would expect from a 15 year old. I can tell you 95% of scouts around this age are basically mimicking what they see others doing. They don't do a lot of rationalizing just yet. But when the time comes that they want to take that horse by the reins, the program is there ready for them. What is important for you dealing with 11 year olds in high responsible positions is allow the position to challenge them without overwhelming them. The adult or older scout, if your lucky to have one, should fill in where the scout lacks in maturity. But, the mentors has to step back as the boy grow. Most new troops with only 11 year olds find that their troop is running basically boy run just in a few with the adults almost totally hands off. There will still be challenges until the scouts reach puberty, But when they reach that age, the adults have to really watch out because the program really takes off fast. I have watched the boys basically leave the adults in the dust because they have so much confidence that they just start taking care of all the details. That is fun for the adults, but the scouts get frustrated from the adults holding back. But if the adults see it, they work hard to get out of the way. So for your 11-year-old patrol, I would first do a couple of patrol corners and then explain the structure of the meeting and why it helps them work as a team. Then I would help the PL write an agenda, at this age a cheat sheet, to help him with the meeting. Watch one or two meetings to guide him and also guide the other scouts on follow ship. At no time am I telling them what to do, but more the whys based on the Scout Law and Oath. Eventually they find I'm not showing up to meetings anymore. The SM taught, now he is doing the trusting and letting go. After a little experience, the adults can measure the patrol performing going to a meeting. At this age, you want to get them to develop habits that allow them to function and move on to the next struggles. Once the stone starts rolling, it will not stop. This is how we do it in Oklahoma, at least in my troop. Most adults who try this comment that the scouts learn fast and build a lot of confidence and their growth goes really fast. Like I said, faster than the adults. So be ready. Does this approach your question. Barry

Hi FOG Are you saying your patrol has to have an adult or else chaos would rule? Boy, most here know my position with aged based patrols and whether or not that is what you guys intended, that is what you have. There are a lot things that we can toss around to help you, but I'm not sure that is what your asking. But, what I teach to adult leaders around here is get in the habit of teaching yourself out of business. In other words, what are the reasons why you feel the adult must be there, then train the scouts so you know longer have that fear or concern. In your case, I think JLT would be a good start. And teach the PL how to leader patrol corners and the other scouts how to listen and followship. You have a challenge. Your guys really should have older scouts showing them the ropes. This is one of those situations where the adults may learn more about scouting than the scouts. Barry

>>That's why I cringe when troops have an adult assigned to help "coach" each patrol. I have never seen this work. The adult inevitably ends up running the program whether they intend to or not.

>>Some think the Patrol method centers around youth leadership. Actually leadership is its own separate method. What the Patrol Method does is act as the vehicle for the leadership method.

Good point, Thanks sctmom. Barry

Good Day All Hello Bizzybbb, everyone's giving some great advice. I don't think you have an unusual group of scouts, you're just new and havn't quite got in the grove yet. You will, most Den leaders get good after about six meetings. I think twocubdad gives some really good advice and I would read his post a couple times. The candle works also, but Twocubdads advice deals with the maturity of the boys. Your agenda looks good depending on the times, but I would move the snack until last. There is some leverage there if you know what I mean. I would also ask and seek a Den Cheif. A boy more their age can sometimes control a wound up group better than the adult and they know a lot of games and activities that can help make boring activities more fun. Also, he will allow you a break to sit down and just enjoy the boys in action. Very important Don't be afraid to ask an experienced scouter to come and watch your meeting. They will have some good advice. And learn from your meetings. As a CM, I alwasys watched the scouts at pack meetings and everytime we I noticed the scouts loosing interest, I either changed the way I did that activity or dropped it completely. Sometimes adults make the mistake of forcing a boring program on the scouts. Take what works and keep using it. Don't be afraid to change what doesn't work. And, have fun. If you aren't having fun, then it will burn you out quick. And these guys really need you. I think you are doing OK because you are asking the right questions. Let us know how thing progress so we can enjoy your experiences. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Five or six years. A uniform is not mandatory for Scouting and to require it is contrary to the policies of BSA.

OK, but can we call you Beav for short? And yes, by all means feel free to express you passions. I How I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hmm, this got me thinking about the requirements for our JLTC. When we sign up for the camp, we have to provide a list of adults and their training to the council. We are required to get a medical form from each scout, not sure how comprehensive it is. If we use in of the camp facilities like the swimming pool or rappelling tower, then we have to provide a list of adults so council can verify they are trained and approved to be responsible for those activities. We don't provide the drivers information because the parents or scout leaders bring in all our participants. I don't provide a Tour Permit for each course, but Council gets all the same information, infact I would say more. And I know our professional is watching that we dot every i and cross every t. I know all our Council OA activities go through the same process. I don't know about district. Good Discussion. Barry

Hi all A friend pointed this out to me on a Forum totally unrelated to scouting. >>Start building your library now. Though I don't like reading I buy many books just to have the knowledge on hand. I started this in the Boy Scouts. I saw how many things were in Dad's old handbook, yet not in mine and vise versa. Then they came out with about three versions while I was a boy each one without some info and including some new. I then started picking up any and all older versions. Partly as a hopby collection and also to have the knowledge that was "lost" in the newer versions. I've started doing this with some fitness books. I love the "bargain books" area at Barns and Noble when I venture in there. You can get $20 books for like $5. Even if you don't follow what's in the book it's good to compare the ideas.

>>I would like to clear this up rather than have this hanging over his head.

>>Sorry for sounding a little legalistic with my plan, but problems arise out of poorly communicated expectations.

>>There is a tremendous learning opportunity here!!

Good morning All >>The least I would expect to prove support would have been a check from them for $75 marked "philmont trip". There being none, there was no agreement

Hi KS We know of several troops here in Oklahoma City that store gear in the trailers. But a couple of troops have had their trailers stolen with the gear in the last year. Council sent out a warning that Troop trailers were being targeted. We added extra locks to our two trailers. We looked for trailers than can be pulled with minivans so we didn't have to rely on a haft ton size trucks. One troop in our town has over 110 scouts and they pull up to four smaller steel trailers to campouts. That seems like a lot, but find four cars and minivans to pull those trailers is a lot easier than finding a truck that would be need for one or two trailer for that size troop. We found that around 900lbs empty is a reasonable weight for a car or minivan. Aluminum trailers are a little more pricey, seems like about 200$ or more for the same size steel trailer, but they last a little longer because of rust. Wheel diameter limits your total weight. 14 inch wheels limit total weight around 2300 lbs give or take, where as a 15 inch wheel bumps you over 3000 lbs easy. Forget a 13 inch wheel because they just can take the road wear of a troop. Total weight is important because if your not careful, you can load more weight than the car or trailer can safely haul. Barry