Eagledad

>>The bad leader may not know how to mentor youths.

Good Morning All >>but I don't think the boy is getting the full application of these methods as they are intended.

I'm only 45, but I feel like a spry 44. Barry

Hi All >>Two deep leadership is required at all Troop activities

>>Did someone say "Niagra Falls"? Slowly I turn...

>>"Good leaders must first be good followers" (or some variation of the quote). What does this quote mean to you? Do you agree with it? How does it apply to scouting?> What does this quote mean to you?>? Do you agree with it?>? How does it apply to scouting?

Hi Proud Eagle BW give a good solution or even just leaving all the older scout together would probably work as well. The youth leadership will come from the older patrol, so at least two or three of them will always be busy with Troop administration and managment. In our troop, those guys are so busy, they don't have time for cooking or normal patrol duties, so the rest of the patrol supports them. It works great for us. As for the new older scout, you will have to get a feel for why he joined your troop, but I found that if he has gone through puberty, he will never be happy with the new scouts. If that is the case, than the SM and SPL will have to work with him to help him catch up and grow. He can still attend the same classes as the new guys, but will probably be happier being a member with the older guys. My experience with these scouts is they feel kind of the old ball and can burn out quickly if they don't ever feel as part of the gang. What keeps them in is getting positions of responsibilty that make them feel adult, and exceptance from the patrol. It will work, but the adults need to understand the challenge. This scout is kind of important in that he will be the oldest scout in the troop in the not to long future. He will have a lot of responsibility thrust on him even if he doesn't want it. Some do OK with it, I find most have a hard time with it. I find that adults naturally will push these guys in advancement which is OK, but what they really need is a lot of experience in leadership. Most of habits and skill of leadership scouts use as they become the troop leaders where learned in the first two or three years. So your scout has a lot of catching up. It will work OK if you know that and guide him where he struggles. Good Luck, everyone will learn a lot from these situation. Barry

>>The question for debate should not be NSP or mixed. The question is "Do you follow the Scouting program or not?

>>The BSA does reccommend, insist, really leans on you to have a program that would allow a scout to become a first class scout in a year. There is a huge difference between making sure the boys attain first class and having a program that enables the scout to become first class, if the scout shows up at meetings, activities, shows scout spirit, etc.

>>Eagledad Are you saying that some troops needs NSP and some do not? How could that be? I truly respect what you have to say, but I wonder what your motivation was for that last post.>You and Bob White say almost the same thing most of the time, but you 2 seem to rub each other the wrong way. I sit and read what you and BW say and think they are saying the same thing in a different way. >A open mind is a learning mind.

Hi All >>I was just looking for someone with, possibly, a similar experience and, perhaps, some suggestions as what to do next.

>>You see separate patrols as high maintenance. Can establishing and developing the character of a random ever-changing group of youth ever be low maintenance?

>>I am an ASM right now and I would like to see our troop have a new scout patrol and a venture patrol. I think that the scouts would be in favor of both but I fear that many of the adults would reject the idea.

AOL Life Current Assistance Scoutmaster Current Council JLT Chair Barry

>>The patrol, as I've always said, is the "leadership laboratory" of the BSA. It's the alpha and omega of BSA leadership teaching.

>>No one bothered us, policed us, or otherwise stopped us from camping.

Good Day all >>Usually, you pros are next to impossible to contact. The current and previous two DEs were notorious for not answering phone calls or emails.

>>I think the SM in this case handled this situation well. Signing off on this requirement at this time would be a great disservice to the Scout and could set a dangerous percedent in the Troop.

>>By the way, as SM, I have delegated the SM conference for every rank (so far up to 1st Class) for one boy in our troop, my son. I do not need to get to know him better plus he and I have many "at home" pseudo SM conferences.

Hi Steve Boy, there is a lot that can be discussed on this subject, but let me start with a few things off the top of my head and I am confident others will join in. The SMs job is helping the scout grow in character, fitness and citizenship. The other stuff like skills, leadership and ideals are the tools or methods for the SM to induce the growth. So a scoutmaster confrences (SC) is really a check on the scout toward his growth. Not a check on can he tie the knots. Its more of finding out if he learned how to tie the knots, does he know where to go in the book to relearn the knots if he forgot them. Even, did he learn how to set a goal to learn more knots. The SC is not a time to check his skills, its a chance to check is growth. Now for those troublesome scouts, a lot of SMs think they only need to do one SC for each scout at each rank advancement. That is where the problem starts. If our job is growth, then we need to talk with the scout enough to watch the growth, and guide him in his performance. It's not really fair to watch the lazy scout who doesn't really appear to live the scout law, but not do anything about until he is ready for his BOR. Mentoring or guiding a scout is a constant process of working with the boy as he performs. You will know if the SM is doing his job if the scout is surprised by anything said in the conference. The SC before the BOR should basically be a review of past performances, conversations and conferences. The scout actually be able to tell the SM where he has improved and grown. Also, the SM should never measure a scout to himself or anyone else in growth. Trust me, I know how frustrating it can be to watch a boy just get by. But the real question is did he grow? Did he make any attempts to better himself through the discussions and conferences with the SM or other mentors? Some scouts will never achieve the ideals you have in mind for a scout. But the small gains you perceive in his performance may be huge leaps to him and his family. Imagine what you do the confidence of a scout who felt he made huge gains in his growth, but the SM said he wasnt a good enough scout yet. Know the scout and his personal abilities. Measure is personal growth. So my suggestions are frequent conferences to measure the performance gains in the scouts, and individual expectations so that each scout is measured against himself. As I said, if some of the comments given by the SM during the conference comes as a surprise to the scout, then the SM or other mentors probably were not working close enough with the scout. If you guide the scout well all during his scouting experience, he will know when he is ready for a BOR. By the way, I never prevented a scout from asking for a BOR even when I felt he wasn't ready after my SC. I advised him why I felt he wasn't ready and suggested he set some goals to improve, but I allowed him to make the decision. Barry

Hi Shell >>I don't want to take away his job but I need to do mine as well, how you do share it? Make sense?

>>Policies are the rules of the program. For instance it used to be a policy that women could not serve as Scoutmasters. That has changed. Methods are the way we reach the aims. Competition used to be a method of scouting, it no longer is, so yes the methods have changed.

>>The "methods" (meaning the content of the methods, not their identity) and the "policies" of the BSA have been changed many times and it is still the Boy Scouts.

>>Was the difference between this stage and the stage that worked the training in leadership and program?

Darn it Dan, how can I show off my superior scout savvy if you keep writing so fast. Time for me to find another forum. I can't add anything Charity, but I think you have a pretty good SM there. Patience is a golden quality that is hard to find in leaders. I said before that boy run is the willingness of adults to grow past their fears by training the scouts. But even after the training, letting the scouts step past your fear can still be bit of a leap. It's very easy to be a leader by the book when your experiences are also by the book. But that monstrous grey area of the unexpected requires courage. It's that courage that separates Scout leaders from Master Scouters. I agree with Mark, both your son and the SM are learning from this. I love this scouting stuff. Barry