Eagledad

Mike and all, I'm so sorry. Barry

>>And once we found and killed that wooly mammoth,

HI All A new Bass Pro Shop opened here last month just in time for Christmas. My 17 year-old son and I went to check it out. As we ventured into the tent section, I noticed an old single pole canvas Boy Scout tent on display. Look, that is the same tent I used in scouts I said pointing to the display. My son looked at the floorless canvas tent and replied, looked really heavy dad, and then strolled on to the backpacks. I stood there staring at the tent while a flood of memories, emotions and smells ran through my mind. There was my first Boy Scout campout where a cold front came through in the middle of the night followed by freezing rain and six inches of snow. I woke up the next morning to the voice of an adult telling the scouts Dont eat the yellow snow. Our Oklahoma Troop was not prepared for such weather, so we broke camp. I remember the best we could do with the frozen canvas tent was folding them just small enough to fit in the back of the pickup trucks. The adults spent two weeks thawing and drying those tents. There was the night we heard spooky footsteps outside our tent. Eventually my tent mate and I peeked out our sleeping bags to see an armadillo crawling between us. I can only imagine what the SM thought of those horrible screams in the night. It was not unusual to wake up shivering in the sleeping bag outside the tent because a gentle slope, or adventurous dream can caused you wiggle or roll under the floorless tent walls into the open sky. It didnt take long to learn that canvas is never light, never easy to fold, and never quick to dry. Do I miss that part of traditional camping? No, not really. But I have wondered if that is really traditional camping. Cooking on the fire. Now I have to agree that cooking on the fire gives a completely different aspect to camping. And that was probably the biggest disappointment when I got back into scouting as an adult. But our guys eventually learned to cook on the fire and actually brag about to their friends in other troops. Who would have thought cooking on the fire could be so cool. Still, there is nothing like relying completely on the fire for good food and clean dishes. Cooking on the fire is probably traditional camping, but I have to wonder if tradition is in the eye of the beholder. For me, traditional camping is standing around the fire at night talking with my Patrol buddies. It was at that fire I learned everything about girls, movies and the performance of WWII fighter aircraft. It was at the warm patrol fire I learned how different food pakagings burned. It was there where my patrol mates confessed the horrors of divorce and the heartache of breaking up with girl friends. We discussed politics, sex and religion. We laughed, cried and even had many moments of saying nothing while staring at the crackling fire. For us young adults, we learned about real life around those fires. As a result, I encourage our scouts to build fires in their patrols hoping they had the same experiences. You never know how thing catch on, but in and effort to be the worlds most popular SM, I always had a SM cracker barrel after the Troop campfire. As the years went by and the troop matured, the cracker barrel became less popular for fear of missing something important at the patrol campfire. Does that count in passing on traditional camping? Great post willys, great memories. Oh I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We ask our SPL to attend our adult meetings when I was SM. We found that both the scouts and the adult benefit from it. It's easy to call specail meetings for sensitive discussions. If there was any draw back from it, I would say that scouts are pretty busy at this age and it could be a burden. But you have two SPLs and no reason why ASPLs can't go either. Personally I would like to take SPLs to round table, but again the time and structure of the meetings doesn't make that comfortable for the scout. I feel that if the SPL runs the troop, he should get all the handouts and information. Great idea scouter659. Barry

>>You said to identify the dens that need help and help them. The problem is that they don't want help and wont accept it.

Good Day All As usual, Scoutmom gives great advice. Help the old SM understand that you are a different person and will likely bring in new ideas. New ideas can be a good thing, but you need is experience and wisdom to help you leadership mature. Also use him as a sounding board, those are great words. It generally takes about a year for a SM to get comfortable with the job. It takes about three years to feel confident that you know what your doing. The old SM can make all that go a lot faster if you're willing to ask for advice. I know that I spent an hour after every meeting for the first six months just talking with the old SM. And I think he felt honored from it. No one understands more the weight on your shoulders than him. Congratulations, you are going to grow a lot from this experience. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Happy New Year All Boy, I had to read this a couple of times to figure out what the question was. I have to say, at first I thought you were talking about two packs in Edmond Oklahoma because the first two thirds of your story was how I was dragged into scouting. Anyway >>We are worried about what is going to happen now that no boys are coming from Pack A anymore.

Hi Dan 2004 is the first summer it is open. I grew up fishing and hunting with my grandparents in those mountains and it is very beautiful. I was told it is pretty much only a backpacking program without the theme camps like Philmont has. I'm looking forward to hearing your experience. Barry

>>Yes, these questions could terrify a young boy!

Happy Days All All those tents you suggested are good tents. Don't know much about the Alps brand, but I will learn because our troop is buying them for the scouts. The quality of tents has really improved over the last ten years. Its hard to go too wrong. So maybe in choosing a tent, it helps to understanding what you want out of a tent. I like freestanding tents that dont require stakes and cord to hold the tent structure up because I've watched those tents collapse in hard rains when the ground gets too soft to support the stake. The advantage to such tents is they save a little on weight by using fewer poles. But Ive watch more than one of these tents collapse at 3:00 am in the hard thunderstorm with 40 mph winds. That really challenges one to offer help. I like tents that use hooks to attach the tent to the poles instead of sleeves. Sleeves double the time it takes to set up a tent and when the hard rain is coming down like it did on me in the Pecos, seconds make all the difference between getting in a dry tent or wet tent. The advantage to sleeves is they add stability in the hard winds. Hooks tend to slide up and down the poles allowing the tent to shake. Most of the newer tents are going to hooks along with providing small bungee cords to lock down the poles in place. My Sierra Design has this bungee/hook system and it held up very well in the 50mph winds at Philmont last summer. If camping with two in the tent, two doors is nice because one person can change clothes and get in or out of the tent without disturbing the other. There are a few tents with this option. I think that REI has a nice one. I like a big enough vestibule so that I can leave my wet, muddy, nasty smelling boots outside the tent and out of the weather as well. Some tents don't have much vestibule to save on weight. But you don't need much to protect to sets of boots. Shorter poles. Aluminum poles are preferred because they are stronger and lighter, but I have found pole section lengths to be an important factor because long poles just dont seem to fit well in packs, especially internal frame packs. Ive notice that many of the newer tent poles are breaking down to shorter lengths now. I like a tent where two people can sit up at the same time. I tented with a friend on Spanish Peaks in Colorado whose tent was very narrow and while the door end of the tent was high enough to sit up, the ceiling tapered down very low by the feet to save weight. When it rained, one person had to lie down while the other could sit up. That can make for a long day if stuck in the tent all day. And we found only one person could get dressed and out of the tent at a time. The other had to wait to get enough room to just get out of the sleeping bag. These are few things Ive learned about tents styles. Im sure others have ideas too. I can say that I found several tents that I found ideal for less than $250, and a couple for less than $180. There are a lot to choose from that will fit your needs. Have a great Christmas Barry

>>Seems the most efficient way he found to put eight backpacks in his Chevy Suburban was to stand them up. The frame on the Jansport was about 3/8" too tall to allow this one to be stood up straight.

>>1. Obtain from your Scoutmaster a signed merit badge application..... 2. Along with another Scout, relative, or a friend, set up and attend your first appointment with the merit badge counselor..... 3. Complete the requirements..... Maybe I'm being to strict but this sure doesn't sound like "show up at the troop meeting and you will earn your ____ merit badge."

>>Its just that the this isnt appropriate for Scouting lectures that seem to work for everybody else is not working in this case.

Hi Hops_scout I have quite a bit of experience with Jansport, both internal and external. Probably half our troop has a Jansport and our family has owned four different models, along with other brands. Jansport is a quality pack for the money. The Carson is a new pack that just replaced the Rainier they sold for about 10 years. This pack is new enough that we have no experience with it, but the Rainier it replaced is probably the best pack you could buy for $80. Our Troop liked it because it is very adjustable and a young scout could grow eight inches and 50 lbs and still use the pack. It is very durable and has a good stiff frame which is important for external frame packs. As KS said, 5500 is plenty of room for a pack, even for Philmont. The harness system in these lower end externals are simple but sufficient to carry up to 45lbs.. Again that is enough for a long trip if you plan correctly. I imagine the Carson harness system was improved over the Rainier, but I have not seen it. Four scouts out of our Philmont crew of 12 last summer had the Jansport Rainier and they held up fine. I agree with everyone here that you need to go try on the pack before you buy it to see if it fits. The 90 is the bigger pack and should work for at least a person up to 5' 8" and 130lbs. Bigger if you dont outgrow the waist belt. It is critical that the belt carry at least 95% of the weight of the pack, so it has to fit well. If the shoulder straps can't be adjusted to allow the belt to carry the load, you need a different pack. Jansport packs are traditionally very adjustable. Hopefully the store has someone who knows how to adjust the pack to see the fit. And I have found Campmor very easy to work with if their equipment doesnt work or fit. If you are locked into this price, this is a good buy at $80, I think you would spend at least $50 for an equal pack of another brand. If this pack doesnt fit, keep watching the sales. Dana Design has some good externals and watch the prices of the Kelty Tioga, also a very good external that normally sell around $145. But you never know, there are some good sales. Barry

>>Barry, I apologize, I meant no harm...

Hey all Saw this on the REI-outlet.com. Today only Dec. 17th. Downright Zero Degree Down Filled Sleeping bag for $79.93. Regularly $165. I don't know anything about Downright, but that is a really good deal for zero degree bag. Barry

>>As I reflect on those times, I know they taught me allot and for that I am grateful. I am thankful for the Scouting program that brought us together.

>>I was disappointed when I returned to Boy Scouts to find the boy-led BORs were gone.>For reference (courtesy of MacScouter) To make sure the Scout has completed the requirements for the ranks. To see how good an experience the Scout is having in the unit. To encourage the Scout to progress further.>The BOR doe NOT test and should only check to see if all requirements have been signed off.>My understanding is that they were done away with because of many examples of abuse. .......... I wish there had been a happy medium to this. Perhaps an adult sitting on the boy-led BOR would have been a work-able compromise.

>>How do you know when you have a scouting program? When meetings are based on learning and practicing skills and activities are based on applying those skills so that a scout advances as he participates.

>>He reported that a full-length Therm-A-Rest would have been better than the 3/4, because his feet were cold until he stuffed some more clothes into the bottom of his sleeping bag.

>>Its what makes the BSA the BSA. Its the scouting program that makes it work not just A program, and it includes First Class Emphasis and New Scout Patrols.

>>I dislike bickering and do believe it drives people away from these forums that we hold so dear.

Merry Christmas All >>Isn't it that simple? If troops are doing all those activities, boys will probably stay in, even if they don't get their ranks. Troops that don't do the activities probably won't retain boys.

Thanks again. Barry

Thanks Bob. Why two committee members, BOR? Is there one reference I can give with all the answers? Barry