Eagledad

You are arguing with agreement. Good for you. Barry

Agreed, five layers of leadership have little or nothing to do with the leadership on the bottom layer. In fact, the lack of leadership guidance from the five layers is more of the complaint from new BSA leaders. But, the BSA is structured to give COs and units their own independence to operate Leadership and Leadership Development within the given BSA structure. It's up to the COs and unit leaders to seek out training and guidance within and outside of the organization. Failure to perform is on the individuals in the unit, not the other four layers. While I don't care for some of the program structure, I certainly don't blame or credit the BSA on my leadership skills. The article in this discussion is pointed toward the individual leader at any level. Nothing prevents each individual from using guidelines from the article to grow and become a better performing leader. I do have another view of a person's motivation to be authentic. I believe some leaders do strive to be authentic when it's not in their nature. My observation is that developing oneself to be an authentic leader requires their natural character to be authentic, or to develop the natural character along with their leadership. Either both develop, or neither, because how can someone be an authentic leader if their life habits are not authentic. In fact, developing character through the habits of leadership is what the Scouting program is all about. We discuss Servant Leader a lot, but in truth the best servant leaders come from a servant lifestyle. I believe the same goes with being authentic. The adults in our troop believed that working on a servant lifestyle naturally led into servant leadership. I'm not convinced that a person can be an authentic leader if they aren't somewhat authentic in the rest of their life. Barry

The discussion has been misdirected (hijacked?) toward silliness when posters find themselves defending against absolutes of good leadership or character. I have watched and participated in enough discussions here to know who has integrity with their posts contributions. Authenticity and integrity are more a measure of principles, not the right or wrong of one decision or idealism. Barry

Yes, but there is a difference between the purpose of leadership and role modeling in a youth organization. Your examples are a bit extreme in the context of the day to day scouts activities intended to develop long range goals. Of course leaders should make choices bases on the what is best for the group. But, sometimes what is best isn't what is right in building a foundation of habits for total development; like character. The uniform is a very basic, but powerful example of what is best and what is right. If the role model doesn't like the chosen dress for the activity, nothing has to be said, their non direct choice will have a bearing on how the group will consider discipline of making choices. As a leader, uniformity of decisions as a group may start with personal example as a role model. Authenticity in my mind is action (leadership) with humility. Sometimes the leader makes a wrong decision. Humility maintains group trust. Prideful excuses create doubt that the leader is less concerned about the group than himself. Barry

As much as we talk about Scout run and Patrol Method, adults still have a lot of influence on the personality of the program. We were developing our New Scout ASM to replace me in a couple of years. During a quiet walk on one campout, I asked him what stood out to him about the troop. He said even though the adults are nearly out of sight of the scouts the whole weekend, their character is almost identical to the adults. I hadn’t realized that until he said it. Over the years I started comparing the personality of the scouts to their adult leaders. It’s doesn’t take long to see it and it is interesting to watch. Almost humorous. And sadly, the character of some adults is not up to our standards. You are right, reflections are important. But, I believe if the goal or expectation is clear, the reflection will be clear when a wrong choice is made. The Scout Law are directives for serving others. You came from a troop where serving others is the culture of the program. When you joined a troop where serving self was the culture, reflection was obvious and hurtful. I was often approached for advice on finding a new SM for their troop. I advised taking a close look at their candidates character. Same goes for the families of new scouts looking for a troop. Barry

Good stuff. The challenge for adults influencing leadership in youth is taking what is learned and experienced, and applying it into actions. What I learned: -leadership doesn’t really appear until most of the team actually desires real goal. Most troops fail because Patrols don’t have true goals that require them to come together. And 3 or 4 Little goals is too many in my experience, even at work. 1 or 2 Real goals provides plenty environment for leadership development. We once took the new scouts to an indoors laser-tag center for a bonding exercise. Indoor laser-tag sessions are short and very fast. So, success requires real group coordination. I observed (and learned) that the common goal to win each session pulled out willing leaders (“Real”) and willing followers together. In fact, the teams that didn’t know each other well did better organizing because their wasn’t the pride of trying to keep up with friends. The real leader had but one goal, the same goal the followers had. The followers Knew their limitations and wanted a leader that they could trust to get them there. And that all happened in a matter of seconds. I remember the surprise of one scout as the group he was giving a plan accepted his direction so willingly. He was authenticity selling his plan to win was strong and obvious. He wasn’t trying to be the top dog, he just had plan to win. And the group of scouts who didn’t know each an hour before won several sessions. Pretty cool to watch. I found that High Adventure treks also pull out the real (Authentic) leaders because the activity is generally mentally and physically exhausting. Exhaustion seems to drive out good and bad authentic behavior, so authentic leadership becomes obvious. True growth requires struggle or pain for motivation. I once watched the quietest shyest 16 year old scout become the the leader among a group of popular Eagle scouts because he knew how to move forward in the difficult very rainy week on a Canadian canoe trip. Even the adults found themselves waiting for this scouts direction. -The other lesson I learned that I wish other (all) adults would take and trust is that general behavior (leadership in this case) development is the result of observing, not lectures or discussions. Troops that use (rely) on the actions of role models for development are typically the strongest youth run programs. You can see a general leadership attitude from the oldest down to first year scouts. This is where scouts develop “conformity” between effective non effective leaders. And, this is also where adults struggle because their instinct is to rescue non effective leaders. They don’t allow differences of behavior styles to develop conformity of effective styles, thus the patrol and troop as a whole struggle to mature with the adults implementation of mediocrity. What I found very interesting about observed leadership growth is the scouts recognize it and will push less mature scouts into positions where they will gain more growth. They instinctively keep behavior growth dynamic. Importantly, scouts (vast majority) who aren’t natural leaders, but find themselves in positions of responsibility, will naturally use the leadership skills they have been observing over the years. I even recall how this happened to me when I elected president of a club at Oklahoma State. And, I believe this is why the shy scout stood out among his Eagle friends. The shy scout was a visitor of the Eagle Scouts troop. He was a close school mate, but came from a different troop. The best leadership development in a scouting program doesn’t come from proactive leadership development activities, the leadership development comes from the passive process of repeated observations of behavior. Just from observing others during their activities, scouts learn trust what behavior is acceptable and what is not. It should go without saying that troops that use role modeling for growth aren’t just good leadership troops, but also well disciplined. Great discussion. Barry

We will have to agree to disagree. You're correlating scout-run to high-adventure. Most Troops that are scout-run aren't less scout run after they become experienced with high adventure. Scout run is principle philosophy that isn't going to change with the same set of adults. Barry

"Most" troops hesitate to plan their own High Adventure because the don't know how. I recommend troops use and outfitter once to learn the ropes and plan the next adventure on their own. Or, call council and ask them if they know a Scouter who will lead and teach a High Adventure. We once had a Ventruring Crew that would lead and teach troops the skills for high adventure. Barry

Because his kids aren’t allowed in classes yet, my son is learning how to make creative videos to give his 10th graders assignments. He is doing Harry Potter characters this month. He was telling me how much fun he is having being creative. I told him now he understands why I had so much fun being a Cub Master. Cub Scout age kids don’t care about politics, political correctness and so forth. They just like a stories of adventure, fun, and humor. I made a new one each meeting. I invited the parents of different ethnics, races and cultures to help plan them. I made sure the stories were interesting and had a lot of participation for both scouts and parents to wear them out. Same ideas went behind my Scoutmaster minutes; they had to be under 2 minutes long, interesting, funny, or adventurous. Humor never failed. Kids will enjoy face painting or anything like that if you make a great story. I had a few Native American stories that were too generic to offend anyone. You will know if you’re going the right direction when the scouts aren’t talking to their neighbor. And if they do, don’t blame them, just do it better next time. That’s how I learned 2 minutes is max for troop age scouts. Have Fun being creative. Barry

Well that will be easy; my Aussie (Gracie) is the best dog we ever owned and my younger son has one also. My daughter has two Golden lab mixes. Laberdoodles. All very smart. We are a big time dog family. Thanks

So that I have a better picture in my head, what kind of dogs? Barry

You were rebuked for mis-representing the intentions of your post. Had you left out the first sentence, it would have been just an opinion. But instead you lectured at one forum member turning your opinion into judgement. Here is an example of the same thing I saw a lot in scouting: "Hey Bobby, it's your decision of how to run the patrol, but if it were my decision, I would.... bla,bla,bla. Now Bobby has the adult watching over his shoulder. Next time just start your post with "I personally ......bla.bla, bla. Barry

Oh for-pete's-sake, you might have shown some integrity if you stopped at "I am not here to change your mind." But, you couldn't hold to your word. You had to try and change her mind. Shesh! Be a better role model. Please! Barry

Interesting. For some reason, young men of scouting age think tents are sound proof. Not a big deal in normal camping situations, but tents set up side by side on High Adventure Outings can put adults in difficult situations as Scouts in their innocence have discussions that would concern many mothers. A mother once told me any discussion her son had with other scouts that is sexual in nature was abuse by the other scouts and should be reported. My wife ran into something like this when two scouts in her GS troop were writing provocative stories at night during summer camp. She inquired the GSUSA equivalent of a SE if there was anything she should say to the parents. The SE insisted my wife call the police and send a report to National. My wife left the GS office and withdrew my daughter and herself from the GSUSA. The over-reaction by the adults scared her a lot more than the curious writtings of the two young girls. I can see how this can get out of control in a CYA culture. Barry

I understand. In general, there isn't much a unit as a whole can do except to seek advice from council for help against adults welding their lawyer card every time they don't get their way. Or they can give into the parents threat. The real tragedy of this situation, and the one our unit experience, is that the child is being pushed aside by the parents, and he knows it. What is a young boy supposed to do when he realizes the hopelessness of his future? Where does the responsibility of the volunteers fit in this situation? Most adults are good, some aren't. Good volunteers see both, and it leaves scars. Barry

Well, I have some experience in almost this exact situation, including the threat of litigation. Unless the pack has done some kind of harm, there is no litigation. Fred is correct that there are thousands of unit policies hanging out there that nobody knows about because of one-of-kind behavior problems. My best advice is deal with unusual cases individually. In this case, the problem is the parents wanting a dump off place for their son. There really is no easy answer, either babysit a scout that doesn't want to be there, or tell them no. I's a very sad situation that gets worse as the young man gets older. If the pack doesn't have the manpower to babysit the scout, then they have to draw a line. Based from our experience, I feel sorry for all involved. Barry

I think Parkman nailed introduction of new ideas into the program in general. Seems like new Troop Treasures always had a new better faster way of acquiring the scouts dues and streamlining into the overall system. Yet, the new idea always seem to take the scout out of the process of money management. I was talking to my high school teacher son yesterday about the differences of education over the years. I was shocked to learn that students today can't type. He said when his students write a paper, they are most comfortable (and much faster) writing the paper on their phone with their thumbs and transferring it over to an editor for publishing. He said todays students find the comma stressful because it represents finality that they don't use in their socializing I can't even imagine it There is balance for introducing new ideas in an oil-time proven process while maintaining the growth intended by the original design . But, it seems the balance has to endure birthing pains. Barry

Yes, but when in Rome..... Barry

We did the same thing on our several trips in Quetico. When we couldn't put the bag in the tree, the local outfitter taught us how to set up camp so that the tents were safe. There were other techniques as well I don't remember. The local's are glad to demonstrate before you leave. But, their first technique is hanging the bags. Canoe treks have the advantage of carrying bear boxes as part of the equipment list (which we never took). Backpacking is where good techniques are important. A good tree is usually a reliable source because there isn't typically limits like rivers or lakes in finding one. . Personally, I believe the best technique for repelling bears are scouts. They can't do anything quietly. They even believe tents are sound proof. Barry

This is very interesting. I know that new scouts are always very excited when they crossover because they have been told over and over that they will do all this stuff without adults telling them when, where and how. But, troops are structured to start new scouts working on their First Class skills. I don't mean that in a negative way, the structure often is intended to prepare the scouts for camping. But, the program structure tends to hold the scouts back because the troop is doing their typical program. I think this is a case that is showing (reteaching) us how to use Patrol Method. Barry

The programs original design didn't intend for scouts to be direct leaders until they had the maturity to learn from the experience, which is about 14 years old. Most leadership is learned by observing, not direct teaching, which is why Leadership Training is designed for older scouts. The natural instinct for prepubescent youth is to hang with the gang or herd so as not to stand out in danger. Rarely does a young scout learn anything from the experience. Once the fun of being the point man wears off, they start dreading the experience even to the point of not showing up. That is why I don't like giving new scouts the role of Patrol Leader their first year. It is taught in Webelos. Much of the Webelos program is basically light mimicking of the patrol and working on basic Scout Skills. But, the difference between an adult leading the group and a scout leading the group is huge. Youth have been trained to trust adults. New Scouts need time and experience to trust that a youth can also be a safe leader. Once they get that experience (about 6 months), they are ready to focus on the basic program. Agreed. Barry

Patrol Method Commercial Break. Your scheduled program will return in the heat of a moment.

This is basically how we ended up getting new scouts up to speed. We found that adding more than two new scouts to an existing patrol disrupted up patrol dynamics too much, so when we recruited more scouts than two per patrol, we created temporary NSPs. We found that one year to merge new scouts into existing patrols was way to long. They start getting board because the patrols don't have the experience to stay busy. Six months was the going average for scouts merging. And we didn't set dates, we told the New Scouts they could merge anytime, and the existing patrol could start recruiting anytime as well. We let them set the process. One of the main program activities that the NSP program basically killed was troops planned annual program. Before the NSP program, the annual troop agenda was different for every troop because they weren't held to one crop of new scouts that had to be trained and advance. Patrols were typically always doing some new scout training because they received one or two new scouts several times a year. Since troops were now receiving the vast majority of their new scouts at the same time, the unintended consequence was the NSP pushing the Patrols role of teaching new scouts to the troop annual program for training.Adults today think that training new scouts and getting all scouts up to first class is the highest priority for the program, but it didn't used to be that way. That attitude came with NSPs, and it was reinforced with the First Class in the First Year plan given by National. One reinforced the other. That limited the maturity of the culture and drove the older scouts out. I believe NSPs are necessary when existing patrols can't handle the attention new scout require without disrupting the patrol dynamics. But, even then adults must understand that growth and maturity in a NSP or same age patrols is slower than mixed age patrol. And, NSPs required more adult attention than mixed age patrols. It is a difficult balance. Barry

Maybe, but what really worked for us was the support from the leaders. If the adults don't by-in to Patrol method, they won't let the scouts by-in. Let me say it better, the scouts will only by-in to whatever the adults give them. I'm not sure about the free range theory as far as youth today not working well with Patrol Method. I'm not sure youth back in the 60's would have accepted it better if their leaders then had the mentality of leaders today. If patrol method must change today, it's not because it needs to change for scouts, it's because it needs to change for the adults. Barry

I think they are reflecting to a traditional Scout style, not the BSA style. Shouldn't we be flattered that the todays youth, who were given the responsibility to design the new uniform, came up with one that complements the BSA uniform. I know many of the adults here wanted to go to a neckerchief with a friendship knot, but the GS youth seem to want more identity as a scout than a neckerchief and tye-dye t-shirt. I hope the BSA complements the GS for their progressive design. Barry