Eagledad

>>This is not a call for the Scoutmaster to make. It is the responsibility of the Board of Review to "review" how the advancement took place.

>>If you allow the award to stand, you are rewarding and even encouraging bad behavior.

Hi all Based off the limited imformation, I would not change the results. However, there are two things I would do. It is important that the scout be held accountible for his behavoir. I would let him know my disapointment and that he lost my trust. He will have to prove himself to me in the future. Then I would bring all the adult together for a meeting and explain the program all about encouraging behavoir based from the values of the scout law and oath. Then I would talk a little about the rights and wrongs of what just happened. If you don't end it with the adults, it won't end. Don't poiont fingers or bring up names, instead just lay out how you expect how the adults will behave in this Troop. Barry

>>depending on the leadership team you get each time you conduct Troop elections. Maybe that's another argument for a dynamic, modular youth training curriculum.

What you just described is basically the present JLTC. It's a good idea and when you work the kinks out, you will have a good TJLT program. I'm not saying it's wrong or that it won't work because we ran something like what you're talking aobut. I am saying that you should train where the troop is weak. I like to tell SPLs at JLTC that when planning their next TJLT, look at the PL Handbook and find the areas of program where the troop is weak. Look at the SPL Handbook and find the areas where leadership is weak. Build your TJLT on those areas. If I may pass a little more of my experience. When you are planning the TJLT weekend, be cautious of how the weekend flows. Are you driving the scouts to follow the agenda exacally as it is planned, or are you allowing the lessons learned along the way propelle the scouts to the next agenda item. We found JLT courses where the staff pushes the agenda minute by minute make the the participants feel they are only spectators watching the course instead of particpating in the experience. I wish you luck KS because I've been where you are at and I really enjoy my experiences working with the scouts developing the program. I look forward to reading your post from the experience. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi KS I've done a few of these as well as lockins, and indoor overnights and other ideas as well. We found that the scouts enjoyed indoor overnight TJLTs more than outdoor because they already camp at least once a month and like something a little different. My goal was to create an environment that encourage the scouts to focus on the JLT lessons being taught. Running a TJLT required a lot of time from older scouts and adults, so we looked for the most bang for our buck and two days indoors turnout to give us what we wanted. I think the ideal campsite, knots and lashings, cooking and KP are scout skills, not leadership skills. If there is a real problem with the patrols not understanding or using scout skills correctly, then it is appropriate to include that in leadership training (TJLT). But so many times I have watch troop focus too much on teaching scout skills at TJLT instead of leadership skills not really understanding the difference. Our Council JLTC is modeled a little from our Troop experience. The staff does the cooking and the scouts are set up in cabins. We found patrols spend about four hours or more a day jsut cooking and KP. By taking the basic patrol responsibilities out of the program, we now fill those hours with leadership Development training. It allowed us to shorten the course by three days and cut the course cost to $50 per participant hoping to bring more scouts to the program. Our council has seen it as a big success so far and I know it was at least being looked at by National. Have a great scouting day. Barry

>>Just as a curiosity, in the previous edition of Wood Badge, how was the ticket process handled?

Wow, what great timing. I just got called and told that I am giving the Vision and Mission presentation at our course this April. Since I have not seen the new WB course in action, I didn't realize what this is all about. I am reading all the comments with a lot of heart. As for the tickets, I've already heard from folks in our last October course say they feel overwhelmed by their tickets. I thought that odd because they only have five compared to the nine we had in the old course. I don't really remember anyone feeling overwhelmed by the tickets in the old course. After reading this subject, maybe there is to much emphasis on the tickets. Barry

woops!

>>I understand your viewpoint, but I think I'd consider mentorship/reflections and TJLT as complementary, rather than the former as a substitute for the latter.

>>I'm optimistic that the new TJLT curriculum will be more responsive to unit needs.

>>Eagledad, Quite the contrary, rather than ignoring junior leader training, the BSA has been focusing on it. For the past two years a national task force has been reviewing and revamping junior leader training.

>>I always thought TJLT fit under and is one of the cornerstones of the "Leadership Development" method. Am I out in left field?

Great Day All Boy, I have a problem with much of this. I need to start by saying I am the Council JLT Chairman. My responsibilities are encouraging and development of all the JLT programs in our Council. The problem in the past few years has been that the BSA has kind of ignored JLT in the Unit. JLTC or Brownsea or what ever your Council program is called has been more of a priority. National has seen the ill effects of this and is working on changes. That Bob calls unit JLT (TJLT) kind of leads to me wonder if that is what they are going to call it. I have not received anything official. My real concern is if National makes JLT a requirement in any form, JLT will just become a stepping stone for rank instead of a tool for encouraging leadership. I have already seen this with Merit Badges, First Class advancement and even the junior leadership position. While Bob did a good job (I think) on describing Junior Leader Training in it's general context, the whole problem I've seen in the last ten years with adult leaders is we just don't quite get junior leadership. Junior leadership starts with scouts skills and patrol method at its very lowest level, but its rare to find a SM who understands how that works. I know of a council where many of the SMs ignore JLT because they don't see it's need in this day and age. That is one council's problem, but it's not hard to see a little of that in every council because of lack of adult training. I give National credit that they have recognized adults need as much JLT training as the scouts. IF the adults don't get it, then they tend to ignore it or us it only enough to get by. Developing a real unit JLT program is a great step forward in helping the unit develop Junior Leadership. But making it a requirement for rank gets away from a program where the boy has control of his destiny in the Troop. Truth is Junior Leadership Training (JLT) of any type is only needed in programs that don't use the scouting methods to there fullest potential. If unit leaders ran a troop perfectly, the Eight Methods would provide for all the Leadership development needed for boy growing into a man. Problem is nobody is perfect, so we use JLT to help fill in where our programs fall behind or fails. To make JLT a requirement of stature is taking away the responsibility to make the methods do the work and adding one more hoop for the scout to jump that may not be needed in his program. Our council has learned and believes that while JLT is for the scouts, it is just as important for the adults to see their program weaknesses and improve them. A good unit JLT (TJLT) will change often to fit the present needs of the unit leadership development program. As the council JLT chairman, I an anxious to see the new programs because the wait is holding us up. I hope it is a good start toward teaching adults about junior leadership development. I hope it is not used to rank a scouts stature in the program. Sorry for the long post, but you must know, I love this Scouting stuff. Barry

Mike and all, I'm so sorry. Barry

>>And once we found and killed that wooly mammoth,

HI All A new Bass Pro Shop opened here last month just in time for Christmas. My 17 year-old son and I went to check it out. As we ventured into the tent section, I noticed an old single pole canvas Boy Scout tent on display. Look, that is the same tent I used in scouts I said pointing to the display. My son looked at the floorless canvas tent and replied, looked really heavy dad, and then strolled on to the backpacks. I stood there staring at the tent while a flood of memories, emotions and smells ran through my mind. There was my first Boy Scout campout where a cold front came through in the middle of the night followed by freezing rain and six inches of snow. I woke up the next morning to the voice of an adult telling the scouts Dont eat the yellow snow. Our Oklahoma Troop was not prepared for such weather, so we broke camp. I remember the best we could do with the frozen canvas tent was folding them just small enough to fit in the back of the pickup trucks. The adults spent two weeks thawing and drying those tents. There was the night we heard spooky footsteps outside our tent. Eventually my tent mate and I peeked out our sleeping bags to see an armadillo crawling between us. I can only imagine what the SM thought of those horrible screams in the night. It was not unusual to wake up shivering in the sleeping bag outside the tent because a gentle slope, or adventurous dream can caused you wiggle or roll under the floorless tent walls into the open sky. It didnt take long to learn that canvas is never light, never easy to fold, and never quick to dry. Do I miss that part of traditional camping? No, not really. But I have wondered if that is really traditional camping. Cooking on the fire. Now I have to agree that cooking on the fire gives a completely different aspect to camping. And that was probably the biggest disappointment when I got back into scouting as an adult. But our guys eventually learned to cook on the fire and actually brag about to their friends in other troops. Who would have thought cooking on the fire could be so cool. Still, there is nothing like relying completely on the fire for good food and clean dishes. Cooking on the fire is probably traditional camping, but I have to wonder if tradition is in the eye of the beholder. For me, traditional camping is standing around the fire at night talking with my Patrol buddies. It was at that fire I learned everything about girls, movies and the performance of WWII fighter aircraft. It was at the warm patrol fire I learned how different food pakagings burned. It was there where my patrol mates confessed the horrors of divorce and the heartache of breaking up with girl friends. We discussed politics, sex and religion. We laughed, cried and even had many moments of saying nothing while staring at the crackling fire. For us young adults, we learned about real life around those fires. As a result, I encourage our scouts to build fires in their patrols hoping they had the same experiences. You never know how thing catch on, but in and effort to be the worlds most popular SM, I always had a SM cracker barrel after the Troop campfire. As the years went by and the troop matured, the cracker barrel became less popular for fear of missing something important at the patrol campfire. Does that count in passing on traditional camping? Great post willys, great memories. Oh I love this scouting stuff. Barry

We ask our SPL to attend our adult meetings when I was SM. We found that both the scouts and the adult benefit from it. It's easy to call specail meetings for sensitive discussions. If there was any draw back from it, I would say that scouts are pretty busy at this age and it could be a burden. But you have two SPLs and no reason why ASPLs can't go either. Personally I would like to take SPLs to round table, but again the time and structure of the meetings doesn't make that comfortable for the scout. I feel that if the SPL runs the troop, he should get all the handouts and information. Great idea scouter659. Barry

>>You said to identify the dens that need help and help them. The problem is that they don't want help and wont accept it.

Good Day All As usual, Scoutmom gives great advice. Help the old SM understand that you are a different person and will likely bring in new ideas. New ideas can be a good thing, but you need is experience and wisdom to help you leadership mature. Also use him as a sounding board, those are great words. It generally takes about a year for a SM to get comfortable with the job. It takes about three years to feel confident that you know what your doing. The old SM can make all that go a lot faster if you're willing to ask for advice. I know that I spent an hour after every meeting for the first six months just talking with the old SM. And I think he felt honored from it. No one understands more the weight on your shoulders than him. Congratulations, you are going to grow a lot from this experience. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Happy New Year All Boy, I had to read this a couple of times to figure out what the question was. I have to say, at first I thought you were talking about two packs in Edmond Oklahoma because the first two thirds of your story was how I was dragged into scouting. Anyway >>We are worried about what is going to happen now that no boys are coming from Pack A anymore.

Hi Dan 2004 is the first summer it is open. I grew up fishing and hunting with my grandparents in those mountains and it is very beautiful. I was told it is pretty much only a backpacking program without the theme camps like Philmont has. I'm looking forward to hearing your experience. Barry

>>Yes, these questions could terrify a young boy!

Happy Days All All those tents you suggested are good tents. Don't know much about the Alps brand, but I will learn because our troop is buying them for the scouts. The quality of tents has really improved over the last ten years. Its hard to go too wrong. So maybe in choosing a tent, it helps to understanding what you want out of a tent. I like freestanding tents that dont require stakes and cord to hold the tent structure up because I've watched those tents collapse in hard rains when the ground gets too soft to support the stake. The advantage to such tents is they save a little on weight by using fewer poles. But Ive watch more than one of these tents collapse at 3:00 am in the hard thunderstorm with 40 mph winds. That really challenges one to offer help. I like tents that use hooks to attach the tent to the poles instead of sleeves. Sleeves double the time it takes to set up a tent and when the hard rain is coming down like it did on me in the Pecos, seconds make all the difference between getting in a dry tent or wet tent. The advantage to sleeves is they add stability in the hard winds. Hooks tend to slide up and down the poles allowing the tent to shake. Most of the newer tents are going to hooks along with providing small bungee cords to lock down the poles in place. My Sierra Design has this bungee/hook system and it held up very well in the 50mph winds at Philmont last summer. If camping with two in the tent, two doors is nice because one person can change clothes and get in or out of the tent without disturbing the other. There are a few tents with this option. I think that REI has a nice one. I like a big enough vestibule so that I can leave my wet, muddy, nasty smelling boots outside the tent and out of the weather as well. Some tents don't have much vestibule to save on weight. But you don't need much to protect to sets of boots. Shorter poles. Aluminum poles are preferred because they are stronger and lighter, but I have found pole section lengths to be an important factor because long poles just dont seem to fit well in packs, especially internal frame packs. Ive notice that many of the newer tent poles are breaking down to shorter lengths now. I like a tent where two people can sit up at the same time. I tented with a friend on Spanish Peaks in Colorado whose tent was very narrow and while the door end of the tent was high enough to sit up, the ceiling tapered down very low by the feet to save weight. When it rained, one person had to lie down while the other could sit up. That can make for a long day if stuck in the tent all day. And we found only one person could get dressed and out of the tent at a time. The other had to wait to get enough room to just get out of the sleeping bag. These are few things Ive learned about tents styles. Im sure others have ideas too. I can say that I found several tents that I found ideal for less than $250, and a couple for less than $180. There are a lot to choose from that will fit your needs. Have a great Christmas Barry

>>Seems the most efficient way he found to put eight backpacks in his Chevy Suburban was to stand them up. The frame on the Jansport was about 3/8" too tall to allow this one to be stood up straight.