Eagledad

Hi Eamonn Without a threat of what you would want, have you asked his opinion of these leaders? I believe that the hardest part of parenting is how to get your kids to do what you want without telling to do what you want. Instead, of holding your fears and concerns, ask him his opinions of the situation and the adults involved, you might be amazed. If you aren't satisfied, express your concerns. Then just sit back and see how he responds. The hard part is doing this without sounding judgemental or intimidating. Talk with him as an adult who needs on more opinion and lets see where that goes. Parenting is so hard. I am amazed that we volunteer for the job. God bless your whole family. Barry

Hi All >>The BSA program is pretty darned close though. However, we can't just close our eyes and blindly follow it without constantly evaluating "Is this working? .

Hi bob Back at ya. Don't confuse logical progression with adult run. As you pointed out many times, you must have an ASM for success with Venture Patrols. As I was taught in school "sure you can build an airplane with a hammer. What's important is how will it fly?" Maybe your satisfied with less then we are down here and that's OK. Barry

From:Eagledad >>Of course you know it doesnt, its a completely different program.>So If your ASMs went to Venturing training to operate a Venture Patrol it is no wonder things did not work, they are two separate programs.

>>Handbook and you will see that the Venture patrol is to have an assigned ASM to oversee the program, few if any troops ever do that. It is to have its own troop program.

Happy Friday all >>But Eamonn points out the biggest problem we face. When a unit is in trouble, it always boils down to someone not following the methods.

>>Notice that even with the attempts of philosophical side-stepping by a few posters, no one who is actually involved in unit leadership has been able to site a single instance where using the methods of scouting did not work.

Good Evening All >>Off the top of my head I don't see where you are not or have not used the program.

I can do that. But lets start off by saying that the BSA program you are talking about is roughly 15 years old. So while I answer your question, I've been wondering how you thought the BSA survived the other 80 years doing a program that you basically say is wrong? My other question is how do you explain two troops with different programs resulting with the same performance? For my part, you can go to any one of my past post and read how I justify why went toward the program that I scoutmastered. Our goal was to build leaders of integrity and citizens of character. When the program wasn't achieving that goal, we tried something different. On one last note, I guess where I'm really different here is I don't believe in just one program. I've always given my opinion of why I think certain aspects or styles of program work better than others. But I also know you should use what works best. The forum is a great place to pass along different ideas. I don't think I've ever given a suggestion without an explination of why I thought it worked. I learned a long time ago that to build a successful program, you have to start with values because when it appears the walls are falling in, only your values will keep you on track. I am convienced our program success wasn't from our approaches to our program. It was our clear site on our values. We migrated to the approaches and methods based from that we wanted our scouts to build habits of character. My hopes are that while I've never explained it in those words, the tone of my post are consistant that values drove the program. Barry

Hi EagleInKy Very nice reply. >>So, for now, I'm hanging on to this responsibility. But I will take this as a challenge to figure out how I can get our junior leaders to do more to teach good leadership down the line.Frankly, it's because I really didn't understand leadership until nearly a decade later. Scouting gave me the tools and the knowledge and a place to apply it in a fun way, it just took me a while to understand it.

As for the SPL teaching the PLs leadership, I respectfully disagree. That task should fall primarily to the Scoutmaster. Yes, I see your point. But I developed several reasons to why the SPL was the teacher. First, it pulls the scout away from a bossy dictoral style of leadership towards a coaching style leadership. I also wanted the youth leaders to see themselves as servents of the scouts they led. By handing over your skills to others, you are raising those you teach to a level equal to yourself. Reduces the Big Head syndrome. I also found that when a leader took on the task to teach, he also took responsibility for the performance of those he was teaching. There are all sort of positive qualities in that. I never forget when the SPL invited me to a meeting where he worked with the Patrol Leaders. The SPL was unhappy with the Patrol leader performance at the last campout and decided to have a work shop. I was invited but not required to come. I have been involved in thousands of hours of JLT at all levels. I saw scouts learn more in that two hour work shop than any other time. And finally, I think there is a type bonding that goes on when you give a part of yourself to another person. That is why I tried to get all the scouts to see themselves as teachers of their leadership responsibility. Even when I was teaching knots, I would ask the first scout who learn the knot to help me work with the others to learn their knots. For many of these guys, that is the first time in their life they were ask to teach someone else a skill. I love scouting best when a scout goes home saying "I like myself when I'm with the troop" Hope this all makes sense. Barry

>>primary job of SM in boy-led troop is to train SPL and PLs in their roles. Hi all Good answers all. I will give my hand of a few things I learned from my experiences. >>How do you accomplish this on an on-going basis?>What do you do every week to add value?> What do you say and when do you say it?> Do you "manage" or "supervise" or "oversee" them in their jobs?>I am looking for specifics in terms of getting good performance out of troop leadership, beyond a one-time training.

>>How do you handle it if a scout reads the Boy Scout Handbook, that says a Patrol should be recruiting new members, and keeping their patrol at full strength.

Hello All >>What would their oldest and youngest ages be, and what would the rank spread be?>What do you think would have the biggest positive impact on growing the membership of your troop?

>>But you can reduce it by grouping scouts similar in age, ability, and experience.

>>This is not problem solving. It is understanding group dynamics and how to work with, coach, help a team (think patrol).

Hi All I would like to contribute and please understand that I am not suggesting any finality to this subject. I have a lot of knowledge and experience with the four stages of team development and in my humble opinion this situation doesnt fit under the model. It is missing two basic ingredients for the Team Development Model. Eamonn mentioned one, which is Goals. The other is the leader. Neither of which is in the forum format. There is another Leadership Training Lesson Ive seen at Management trainings which discusses the differences in Group Dynamics and Team Dynamics. The basic difference between the two is Team Dynamics has a leader and a goal. Group dynamics might stumble into either one, but usually doesnt have either one. And the members in the group dont see themselves as a team. Just the same interest. That blows away the first stage because there is no vision for anyone to achieve. Oh maybe one or two are looking to get something, but basically there is no one idea or goal to hold the group together. Without stage one, there is no reason for anyone to put up with the struggle and pain of stage two. Even more important from a leadership point of view, there is no leader to keep everyone on task or remind them of the team goal, which is critical in stage two. I do agree there were more new members, but the old timers drove the discussion dynamics. The new members just didnt like it and Im wondering if we old timers are just too proud to listen to them or ask the right questions. Another thing, while we continue this discussion, I think you can look through other discussion in other subjects along the same general time frame and see much of the same thing going on. Maybe its the weather. Interesting discussion. Have a great week and carry on. Barry

>>There is a chaos of volunteers on this board who each sy "here is how I do it, no here is how I do it. Each doing a different method often unrelated to scouting.

Well Hmmm. OK I miss stated. I should have said that boys between the age of 10 and 14 learn 80% or more of their behavior from who the watch. I work with psychologist and here is what they teach me. Between the ages 10 through 15, whoops I said 14. But between the ages of 10 to 15, we (we being all of us) learn 70% to 100%of our behavior from whom we watch. Yes, I know I said 80 to 90, but that is because Im told 80% is average. That is why how we behave has a direct bearing on how our youth will act in their future, even if it is to rebel against us. They are influenced more by whom they respect, but that is not always good because they could respect the class clown or a punk rocker. Do they still say punk? Want to have a little fun, next time you are at summer camp, pick a couple of troops and watch the adults compared to the scouts. I think you might be surprised by what you see. In fact, watch your own troop next campout. Look for the similarities. Its kind of fun. Not sure of your numbers, maybe that is how we learn in a class room type setting. Anyways, the say and do part you mentioned comes down the road though, 15 years or older. Which again is important because that is when we (we as in all of us) watch others less and start doing more on our own. The body change directs it (puberty), we start to look forward independently and less at our friends. I also observed this in scouting with leadership. I found that scouts didnt look at leadership as an act to lead or direct others in their early teens. They led mostly because it was thrust on them or they got some reward like advancement from it. But once they reach about 15, give or take a year, they shift gears and looked at leadership as a vehicle to project themselves in society, the troop in our case, either to test their abilities in the world, or to make change to the world. The troop being the world. This is why I love the BSA program. Its one of the few programs where a young adult has the opportunity to test their dreams and ideas, if we adults let them. Now for the troop guides, JASMs and Instructors suggestion. They are great for the program, they certainly are. But they are not enough to equal the growth scouts get from mixed age patrols. I have yet to see scouts in an aged based troop with maturity of scouts in a mixed age patrol Troop. Not that there isnt one out there, but So I stand by the comment. If a boy learns more by watching others, he needs to see others with higher skills than himself. In a mixed age patrol, the younger scouts are constantly surrounded by older experienced scouts who dont think twice about how they cook, what they cook or even when they cook. If the younger scouts dont have those role models, then they will have to get it from the teachings of Troop Guides, JASMs, Instructors, and usually adults. But remember, scouts learn by watching more than by listening to instruction, and those other guys dont live in the patrol, so the exposure is limited compared to mixed age patrols. Even in the best of troops, a scout in a age base patrol will not get half the exposure of skills and behavior that a scout in the mixed age patrol. So why did the BSA change to aged base patrols. Mostly to raise the number of Webelos crossing over into Troops, and lower the number of scouts leaving the troop in their first year. Those to areas accounted then, and still account now for the highest losses of scouts. Personally I think that BSA has been trying to fix problems caused by those changes ever since. Hope this helps. Barry

Oh for Pete sakes. Tradition is what you make it. There are no time limitations on them. How would a Patrol make their own traditions. My pack did the hanging up side down tradtion 20 yesrs before it was stopped. It just happened that hanging upsidedown caught on and spread pretty fast and the BSA had to put a stop to the danger. But just because the BSA says it is hazing? Well at one time the FAA said that only machines that simulate airplanes could be called simulators. That was a surprise for all those companies who built simulators that simulate everything from cars to hospital equipment. A good hazing test is to look into your heart. If you are seeking to humiliate that person, its hazing. Interesting story, a local Pack decided to start a new tradition so the scouts wouldn't be to upset taking away the hanging up side down ceremony. They made a Bobcat brand. The CM dipped the brand in white powder and branded each scout. Something to do with you are a new brand of scout or something like that. All was OK until an Animal Rights group found out and complained that it taught the scouts animal cruelty. Barry

Hello All You assume too much BW for knowing nothing about the situation. You pulled the trigger to fast. But I understand why you said it, I have lots of assumptions of your program as well from your writings. Im sure they are just as silly. Which is why I keep them to myself. As for the other questions, just because a scout acts as a patrol of one doesnt mean he doesnt work with or hang out with the other scouts. Was it good patrol method? No but that doesnt mean the scout, or other Scouts didnt learn a lot about patrol method from the experience. Sometimes you have to let ideas go to their end to grow from the results. The situation gave an opportunity for a positive impact and growth. The adults were well aware of the situation and monitored it to guide it to a positive conclusion. Barry

Hi All Hazing is to persecute or harass with meaningless, difficult, or humiliating tasks. In this context, singing is hazing because the humiliation is intended to harass the scout into changing his behavior. Hanging someone upside down is a tradition to uplift a scout by recognizing his advancement. No intention to harass, so there is no intention to humiliate the scout. It would only be hazing if the scout doesnt want to do it. Now its a dangerous practice and there by shouldnt be done. But calling it hazing only misuses and confuses the meaning of hazing. I have seen adults take this to the extreme and forbid singing Happy Birthday because they think that is hazing. Barry

Hi All >>Grouping by mixed ages and ranks is not part of the method either. The BSA program works if you follow the program. Patrols are a group of scouts of similar age, abilities, and interests.

Great stuff out there. A few other ideas that helped me was asked the parents to do a few activity badges. YOu would be surprised how much they enjoy this and some parents have great skills. Ask your DE to help you find some Scoutmasters who can help do a few activity badges as well. You can meet them at round table and they are usually glad to help because it can help their recruiting. Now you can spend more time organizing the meeting and less time on the activity badges. Try to get out a lot. I usually tried to let the activity badges give me ideas on different meeting locations. Like doing the activitys badge at a local school track. I tried to plan two activity badges per meeting (per month) so the meetings didn't get boring with the ideas the badges would take two or three meetings. I did 2 one and a half hour meetings a month becasuse I found that gave me more productive time than three one hour meetings. Leave at least 20 minutes for a action activity or game. Boys at this age love to run. Great Question Barry

Hi all I agree with BW 100%, but I think you will find that she is not violating any G2SS rules. Common sense maybe, but not G2SS. From the G2SS: "Two-deep leadership. Two registered adult leaders or one registered leader and a parent of a participant, one of whom must be 21 years of age or older, are required on all trips and outings." Barry