Eagledad

>>No, it wouldn't be fair to say that.

So it's fair to say you really don't have a clue about the program and how it contributes to our youth and society. If you were personally given the ability to kill the BSA completely or leave it alone as it is presently, what would choose? Barry

My apologies, I left out the question mark. That last post was a question, not a statement. So you are not presently and have not been involved in scouting since Cub Scouts 35 years ago? Barry

Hi All Great Question. I worked a little different. If the cubs are unruly to the point that I need a whistle or hold my sign up until my arm turns blue, I use that as a flag than probably it was me doing something wrong. Every time I had problems with scouts like this, I changed my program because boys hate to miss anything fun. I learned what boys liked and didnt like. I created little tricks like moving most of the announcements, that bore the daylight out of the boys, to a newsletter. I might take one announcement and entertain the boys like roll out on roller blades to announce our annual roller skating party. I did a Tool Time skit to announce the Pinewood derby, things fun or funny like that. Surely there is a ham in the pack. Right off the bat, I can say that scouts arent much into singing unless the songs are funny, fun or gross. You probably need to make Christmas Carols a little more fun someway or another. Usually scouts like to watch their parents, that is what I found helped in singing at pack meetings. I also dont like using the scout sign as a method of controlling behavior. Now I know that all of us adults put up the sign to get attention, but sometimes we hold the sign up a little longer than we should or put it up a little too often. What happens is the scouts learn to hate it and think of it as symbol of behavoir control like a paddle. That is not it's intention. Instead with cubs, I created actions where they could yell, scream, jump up and down or what ever when I gave the action. It was anything from holding my nose, throwing a neckerchief in the air or hold my arms strait out. The idea is if the arms werent strait out in the air, then they basically had to be quiet. Every 15 minutes or so as the scouts started to get a little edgy on the more boring part of the program, I put my arm up to let them vent. When I put them down, they were quiet and I could continued with the regularly scheduled program. I had 90 or more cubs, so there where times when things could get a little long. I used my sign to get their attention and that usually worked. Usually its only a couple guys who may be talking and just dont see the sign. I would then politely with a smile call their name and they would give me attention. Where this becomes important is when your son becomes a leader in the troop. If he remembers the sign being used to beat down the scouts, he will use it that way as well. I always told my SPLs that the sign is used to get attention, not punish bad behavoir. If he needs to hold the sign more than 15 seconds to get attention, then he needs to use another type leadership skill to control the group. You want you sons to learn those skills anyways because the scout sign doesnt usually work outside of scouting. Hope that helps a little. Barry

So you are not presently and have not been involved in scouting since Cub Scouts 35 years ago. Barry

So, is Merlyn a scouter or been involved in scouting? Barry

I've not heard of the camp, but it sounds like the same kind of camp as the Spanish Peaks camp and Camp Isabel where the Troops do their own cooking. That is the main difference from Camp Frank Rand which also uses the Pecos Wilderness for week long High Adventure treks. Our Troop has done Frank Rand and rated it pretty good overall.

>>The strange part is now they generated LOTS of ideas. The problem is that at least 1/2 of the ideas are not practical. At least not for us at this time (California, Colorado, Hawaii, etc.). Lots of good long term ideas, but it was hard to reel them in to think about what was practical for next year.

Hi All Just like it takes practice for the brain to get good at math, being creative and thinking out of the box takes practice and exercise as well. Dont assume that letting them go that they will come up with new ideas. Believe it or not, scouting is the youth program where the idea of letting the youth create the program is the norm. Its no wonder our youth arent good at it at first. You just need to prime the pump a little. I like the analogy of leading them to water than holding their heads underwater. Get some copies of annual programs from a dozen different troops and give them to your scouts to show them different ideas other troops do a regular campouts. Then get them talking, stand back and watch how it goes. If one or two scouts just sit there quietly watching the others, ask them for one idea. It never fails, once the scouts see they can get outside the norm, you cant seem to stop the snowballing effect. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Check out the Pecos Wilderness High Adventure program at Camp Frank Rand in New Mexico. Our scouts who did both Philmont and Pecos liked Pecos better for the hiking and scenery. I must say the adults agree. What you will miss at Pecos is the Philmont programs. They will let you customize your hike to fit the desires and maturity of your crew. One of our crews planned their hikes around fishing and had a wonderful time. I especially enjoyed the mountain top lakes. Another good hike that I would rate behind Pecos and Philmont, but still a lot of fun is the High Adventure Program at Camp Spanish Peaks about hour north of Philmont in Colorado. They can add climbing and rappelling to your hike if you like. Barry

Happy Scouting All >>This requirement has been in the last (3) printings of the boys Webelos book, and there is a parent guide in every level of the Cub Scout program boys books.

>>We need not always jump to the conclusion that every problem or twit we 'hear' about in these forums is/are accurate discriptions of the situations or that we ever get the whole story and background data...>Please try to remember the "law of unintended consequences"...>and for "commissioners with real power"? aren't we just looking for moving twits up the line...who does more damage; a twit as a cub master/ troop master (note lower case) or a twit with 'real power' as a commissioner?

>> Weather he had his book with him or not, he was there, he did the work, he earned the pin. Both the boy and the leader know he earned the pin. According to BSA the award should be given to the boy at the next available opportunity. To withhold the pin until the leader can sign the boy's book is wrong IMO and adding a requirement.

>>I really could not go along with withholding Webelos Activity pins that have been earned. That is against BSA policy for Cubs, Webelos or Boy Scouts.>The Webelos' book, like the Boy Scout's handbook, is not and should not be the only record of their progress.

This reminded me of one of our AOL ceremonies. I went to a party supplies store and bought one of those cheap plastic table clothes and painted the Arrow of Light emblem on it. The emblem was about 18 inches by 30 inches. Before the meeting, I taped the tablecloth between to vertical post and then set a lamp behind it. Then I hid the tablecloth by putting a large piece of cardboard in front of it. One my mark during the ceremony, someone turned off the room lights and while I pulled the cardboard away and plugged in the lamp behind the tablecloth. The whole room was dark except this white tablecloth that appeared to glow in the dark with a big Webelos emblem in the middle of it. I brought each Webelos up one at a time, gave a brief story about him, and presented him with the arrow I made for him. I then gave him a bow and let him shoot his arrow through the tablecloth. The arrows were only about 12 inches long, so they couldnt pull back far enough to get much velocity. They had just enough speed to punch through the tablecloth. It was really cool. If we ever have time, let me tell you about the Lighted Neckerchief Ceremony we did for crossovers. Flames about three feet high. Ahhh, I remember those wonderful Cub days. No wonder I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi all Great question. I am a Life lifer. But I guess I'm one of the few that have no regrets. Honestly I can't imagine how it would have changed my life more than what scouting already gave me. I've had, and still have a wonderful life with a family that many can only dream. Could I have done better? Sure, who doesnt have regrets? But I didn't get a 4.0 (barely a 3.3) in high school either and I still earned a degree in engineering. I was a scout from age six to nineteen (Lion to Scuba Explorer) and loved every minute of it. I think I am a recipient of what the program was design to give. I was one of three adults who developed our present Troop. We all had about the same positive scouting experience in our youth and we and tried to duplicate that in the new Troop. We were shocked at the attention given to the Eagle. I guess we all came from that 70s program just mentioned. Not that we didn't think it important, but to us the Eagle was a result of a good program, not the cause. Eagle is very admirable and they have my deepest respect. I've yet to meet an Eagle I didn't feel represented its honor. But have I've met a few proud Eagles who hated their scouting experience. Whatever their rank was when they finished scouting, I hope my scouts never have reason to cringe when they look back on their scouting experience. Have a great scouting week. Barry

Hi All This very idea has been passed around lately on other forums. And its not really new in that Ive heard of a Council trying something similar with a program called the Quality Unit Plus award or something like that. The council issues a special Council Patches to units that went the extra distance or achieved the added requirements over the National Quality Unit requirements. I dont remember the requirements, but they were pretty strict. Mark kind of hit on some requirements I would like to see like the BORs. But I wouldnt look at BOR times, although that is how I watched our BORs while I was SM. I found while I was on district that units that seem to abuse BORs did so more out of ignorance than anything. We tried to solve the problem by TRAINING unit advancement representatives. Unit leaders simply didnt know how or the resources provided that would help perform BORs. So we trained them to train their own units on BORs and Merit Badge Councilors. It made a big difference for the time we did the training. I know we talk about training is already there, but Ive seen this kind of specialized training really help units. It would not help those maverick units. I would love to see a priority on Unit Commissioners. A year or two back a poster threw out an idea of getting rid of commissioners all together. Now Im not hitting at that discussion at all because I think forums are a place to throw out different ideas. But I was suspicious of this poster because he has the reputation of never getting away from the present BSA program. He is not a Out of the Box type person. So I took his idea as something of a rumor from National and threw out on another forum to some folks who would be in the know. They would neither support nor deny that National hasnt at least considered the idea of getting rid of the commissioner corp. I hope it was nothing more than my mind wondering to far out in the field. I believe that many of the problems I see in the program could be solved better with commissioners. Webelos crossover numbers being one of them. I would like to see strong Commissioner Corp programs again. I like these kinds of discussions because they are grass root types of solutions. Great job. BArry

HI all I gave my pins to the scouts at the end of each Den meeting. We had a couple of situations where the scouts had to wait two and three months for their pins and I found they weren't nearly as special after waiting so long. So I started presenting the them their pins at the end of each den meeting It became special for the parents as well. They showed up five minutes before the end of the meeting for our awards presentation. The CM still recrognized my Webelos at the Pack meeting by presenting them with the cards. So everyone got what they wanted and my 16 guys never had to wait. Barry

>>My problem is that every parent is overloading the program with what they think it should be.

Boy, lots of great ideas out there. You are right to fix this now because you are expected to carry these guys for another three years. Try all these ideas because how well they work depends on your personality. One of them may work. I see your other mom as a problem. I had kind of the same problem in my den and I eventally had to approach him. Since I was the leader, he was very willing to follow my suggestions. In this case, I suggested he make an aggreement with his son that he would not be his son's father during the meeting, allowing me to work with his son. It worked very well because his son knew I wouldn't put up with his behavoir. For the rest of the guys (I had 16), we divided up our meeting into two activities. We all met together at the start and finish of the meeting. But for the rest of the meeting, I had two activities planned so that we could divide the group into two, and also keep their interest by changing the activities. Then I made sure they had game time. I like the idea of the talking stick. I used to do this with a football for story telling at campfires. Barry

Thanks NJ, I was thinking back to my sisters and thought they were Daisys in the 60s, butI guess not. Hmmm, I wonder what they were, Brownies? I am also one that suggested a kindergarten Tiger program like the GSUSA, but not because the GSUSA has one. I only suggest it because I think it is the next best solution to killing the Tiger program completely. IF we are to be stuck with Tigers, then lets try to do it better and look at the Daisy program. Happy Scouting All Barry

>> like to know your thoughts on the GSUSA Daisy program.

Wow, every time I start to think we are different, you show me how we are very much the same. Your words about scouting in UK brought a smile because you just described my scouting experience as a youth. Those were wonderful days and that is what we tried to duplicate when we started our troop in 1993. But we learned quickly that the scouting program of the seventies couldnt work in the nineties. Not completely anyway. Interestingly, it was basically from one minor change of bringing the Webelos over as a group instead of them joining individually when they reach the right age like you described. I believe that one little change started the boulder rolling from the program I experienced as a youth to the program in the books today. One other thing you mention that was so much like my experience as a youth is the emphasis on the Eagle. Back then the Eagle was for those scouts who focused on merit badges. We didnt look at leadership as a requirement for rank, but more as a recognition of respect by your piers who voted you into the position. While Eagle was pretty cool, we commended those scouts more because they endured the time it took to earn that many merit badges. For us the highest honor came to those who were voted into OA. Back then each troop was only allowed to send two scouts a year into OA. So it was usually the two very best scouts who made OA. Those guys were hard workers, great leaders, very active and had to be at least 14. Its hard to describe how I feel about the Order of the Arrow today. Older scouts are a tough discussion. But you really described it well. When I was a youth, every one of my Patrol Leaders drove cars. That gives you an idea of older scouts in my troop. But today a 16-year-old PL is unheard of. And that is too bad. I learned so much from those guys because at 16, you are more a man than a boy. Looking back on those guys, I cant remember a selfish one among them. They were very much like older brothers who knew everything. And I have to say, that was the kind of troop we tried to develop today. One reason I dont like Venture Patrols is because they killed the 16-year-old Patrol leader. Venture Patrols took away that older brother from those young scouts who need guys like that as heroes. What worse it I think the Venture Patrol replaced those guys with adults. And as you know, if an adult is doing what a scout could be doing, then there is something wrong. I imagine that looking back to your program in the UK, there were very few organized classes to teach the scouts skills because the mixed patrols did that for you. I feel I have a bad name on this list because what I write is presented as a wrong form of scouting. But I dont tell what I think people should do, I usually try to explain how one method will perform differently over the other. As I said, I did what it took to reach the Three Aims. While the new program seems clear now, back in 1993 it was still pretty much the program of the 70s. We also implemented what was in the new program, but only as a way to improve performance. If the new ideas didnt work, we dropped them. I worked with several units in this way. So that is why I can explain the whys to the hows. I guess what I want to bring across is what our goals our. Most new adult leaders dont see the big picture because they are so focused on each micro part of the program. If I can help one SM say, Oh, I see what youre trying to say, then it really doesnt matter to me how he does the program because he understand the goal and how to get there. I still get to work with a few units now and then when they ask for ideas. Its a lot of fun to meet folks we talk with on these forums in person. Ive met SR540Beaver (Beav) several times and I think you will here his name a lot one day. You know that small ball of fire you feel when everything in scouting clicking. Well that is what I see in Beavs eyes every time we talk. Beav is another Eamonn and Mark. You say you are a by the book person because in a worst-case scenario, the book will usually come through for a good program. I agree and that is how I teach as well. But I enjoy polling folks for different things. One thing I poll the adults I teach and work with is how much they use the books. Here is some numbers that I think are realistic. I would say at best, only about one in 25 trained Scoutmasters have read more than a third of the SM Handbook. I would say it is more like 1 in 200 for ASMs. And I find it funny that we give so much respect to SMs who take Wood Badge because the ratio of the ones who have read the SM handbook doesnt change. So we need to understand what by the book means in the BSA because we adults are only using them as a sleeping pill. Is by the book getting to hard? That is why I think the new SPL Handbook and the PL Handbook is one the Nationals best publications. Just about everything I want a SM to get out of the SM Handbook is in those two books. And they can read both of them with in an hour. And the Scouts learn what the SM is supposed to already know. But you also mentioned adults need to learn how to use the methods. I believe that is the problem the BSA has right now. If we could teach adults how to use the Eight Methods, then I think the rest of the program would fall into place. I guess that is how my rose colored glasses work anyway. I am a Methods person. Well, Ive run long once again, but its fun. I love this Scouting Stuff. Barry

Hi All The GSUSA and the BSA have two very different objectives. The GSUSA used the Daisy program as the begining for girls. THe BSA used the Tigers as the begining for the whole family. The Daisy program has been successful for a long time. I want to say at least 40 years or more. The BSA has been struggling with Tigers for almost 25. Barry

Our pack tradition was an arrow for AOL and a Scout Handbook for crossing over. I think both gifts are wonderful, but I've noticed that when I visit the personal displays that Eagles scouts set up at their Eagle COH, it's usually that arrow I gave them on display, not the book. I like the knife idea also. Barry