Eagledad

OK, your post makes sense. My WB experiences are all good. Of course I'm the kind of person that makes my experience good. Our courses are presented very well because our Council has a tradition of presenting good courses. I have observed that some courses are better than others as each tends toward the personality of the course director. But, even the worst course is good. As I said, I was excited with the new WB course because I felt it fit better for improving overall unit adult performance. All that being said, I talk to a lot of scouters and most of them couldn't really explain exactly what they learned on the whole. Which was OK, because my focus was always on ticket design. Still, I believe folks struggled to explain the main objective of the course is because the material isn't presented well in the since that each subject or discussion is a piece of a larger picture. If the course director gets it, then the course presents each part as part of the whole. But, if they don't, then the presenters practices and presents each subject as described in the WB Syllabus without much thought to connecting all the presentations together. However, no mater how the course is presented, if the participants had a good experience, they believe they attended a good course. As you know, we have a lot of fun. I'm not asking for the demise of the WB course, it think it's the best they have presently for the goals of team building. If I were king of the world, I would put a Harley in every garage and then I would scrap all the training materials today and start over. Actually I would go back to the pre 2000 courses because I thought they were much better, but I would adjust them to fit today. I would push WB back to an advance SM Course and create an advanced Adult Leaders course that would resemble todays WB a lot in content, but not the troop presentation. I would call it, Flaming Arrow. FA for short. I think units today are missing senior scouters who are respected for not only their experience, but their extensive Scouting knowledge and Education. That sounds like you ParkMan. And that is exactly what the WB course did for participants before it got hijacked in the 80s as a king of the hill type program. Woodbadgers where supposed to be respected teachers. Simple, but we are talking the Google Search of Scouting. Respect comes from hard work and humble application. Those people want to improve scouting without taking any credit. It's hard to imagine that kind of respect for even WB Course Directors today. There are a few, but that respect isn't necessary to direct the course. What the BSA needs right now is an advanced scouter course with the intention of the WB goals. But in a format that a Scouter from a Pack would feel at home as much as the Venturing Scouter. Or the the Committee Chair want of education as the SM. I believe the format would be more on a business professional spending two or three days at a conference center. I ran our council Junior Leadership course that way and the scouts loved it because the new format set all the participants equal at the very beginning. Doesn't matter whether the participant comes from the pack, troop, Venturing Crew, District Committee, or Council Committee, they all start at the same place. Most here probably didn't know that the early Wood Badge course was so respected by it's format and content that several businesses would send employees to the course. Others would accept the experience as credit for hiring. Interesting considering the course was intended for Scoutmasters. A lot of it had to do with how the top level staffers worked with the lower level staffers (Team dynamics). But, also once the participant understands how the format leads to gaining knowledge, the experience can be applied in the business world. That is what I would try get back with the Advance Scouter course. As for presenting a course online, I would design courses that would give the scouters more knowledge for their responsibilities in their units, but also wet their appetite for attending the rest of the course together for full respect for being a Flaming Arrow. Still haven't thought through wearing a Flaming Arrow around the neck. Needs more time for that.. Barry

OK, but I staffed a few courses myself. I counseled a lot of participants for their Tickets and I worked with a lot of adults in my units. In general scouters are recruited from the day they join. Not like grabbing them and pulling them to a course, but telling them that WB is the final ultimate course. Oh, it doesn't hurt to get the woggle that all the other experienced leaders wear. And, I can honestly to We will just have to agree to disagree. Barry

This the theory behind the newer WB course, and mine at the time in 2000. But, there are a few unexpected complications that seem to upset the theory. 1. Scouters, even those coming from Packs, are expecting to learn some hands on scouting skills, especially leadership skills. 2. The staffs don't really understand what WB is trying to pass along, so they aren't selling their program very well in their course. Just reflect back on all the posts in this thread where WB is called a leadership course. It doesn't matter how much previous training a participant brings to WB, if it is called a Leadership Training course, they expect a leadership training course. AND, even the participants coming from packs believe the training is basically Troop related, if not intended. Don't get me wrong, I like the intended course, but if it's not presented properly, a lot of unsatisfied participants come out of the course. Maybe what is needed is a train the the WB trainer course. I would love to be on that staff. Barry

No, most folks take the course for the Status, not the skills. The ones who want the skills are the one who are disappointed because skills are taught. And, there isn't a true Troop training course, which seems to be what most participants want. I think a better Advanced Beginner course could be developed that does a better job developing leader for their roles a team members. As a staffer, I feel working the Ticket has the most value, but it is not used to it's best advantage because staffs don't understand why it is so effective. I had control of Ticket proposals and counseled participants on how create them. Many staff don't give that effort. Barry

Yes. National changed their membership policy in 1990 to accept women troop leaders. The unforeseen consequence was the sudden rush of unexperienced troop leaders needing training for a troop leader experience. Wood Badge was at the time an "ADVANCED" Scoutmaster training course designed for EXPERIENCED Scoutmasters who wanted to expand their skills. As an advanced course, the curriculum was heaving into using an idealistic simulator troop environment and culture as well as using scout skills for teaching models. The simulated troop and scout skills were just props for teaching ADVANCED TEACHING SKILLS. Not Troop Leadership skills. Big difference. You would think that Wood Badge would be the ideal course to for adults with absolutely no scouting experience to learn the scouting program because the participants live as boy scouts for 7 days. BUT, as I said, the course curriculum was an idealistic model for experienced participants, it was not intended as a demonstration for the common troop. However, because the participants didn't have any experience, they took the course as the idealistic model for their troop, and they went back to duplicate a troop where the adults eat all their meals with the scouts, then did skills trainings all day long and sang songs all night long. As a result, National we getting a lot of negative comments along with a drop in membership. National realized that if they were going to deal with a large percentage of new adults without a scouting experience, they needed a way to bring them up to speed on the Goals and Aims of the BSA program and give them better initial adult skills. That is what the course started as in 2000. Not sure what it is now, but I don't think it is all that different. I know it certainly isn't a troop leadership course. As someone who was asked to work with struggling units while on District, I liked the new WB course because the vast majority of the issues I was dealing with were adults who didn't understand the goals of the program and didn't know how to operate as a team. Scouts skills (at all levels, Cubs Troops, venturing) were not issues causing these units to struggle. Understanding why they were there and working as a team was the number one issue I was dealing with. Where National failed with the new WB was they took the WB name and respected reputation to develop the team building course. They should have started with something completely new. Now everybody wants a woggle. Shesh.

LOL, WB used to be an advanced Scooutmaster course until 2000. WB is a designed team building course for all Scouters from Cubs to Venturing. But because of it's legacy, most participants and staffers think of it as Troop Leadership course and are greatly disappointed. Personally, I believe the value of the course is in the working the Ticket because that requires the participants to think what they want to do and then create a plan to do it. The rest of the course agenda is filler to have an excuse for serving frozen cheese burritos. Barry

Like anything, quality is a reflection of the leader. In this case the course director. Our council takes pride in putting out good courses, but they each very depending on the course director. Engineering groups tend to struggle with good managers because good hard working engineers are promoted in to leadership positions of which they aren’t trained. WB as the same situation, a hard worker earns their way up to course director, but just isnt very good at it. The ASM of Troop Guides is responsible for training the troop guides. That job usually goes to someone on their way up to course director. Barry

I believe there are a very few scouters who are clearly of Mindset 1, but would never admit it because they believe they are within the boundaries of the BSA program. I believe most of the rest of us act with the intentions of Parkmans choice" ". But, for different reasons, unintentionally cross the line of Mindset 1. There is a theory that a pilot can't fly 100 miles without breaking at least one FAA regulation because there are so many, . Scouting is much the same. I doubt that a single unit does an activity without breaking some rule. I guess the question is really seeking out scouters who create a scouting program that isn't under the heart of the scouting guidelines. Fair enough. My experience is that those scouters have a very different and personal goals than developing character growth of the scouts. We had one scouter on the forum a few years ago who believed the BSA Mission and Vision were silly because they had nothing to do with scouts growing from independence in the outdoors. He preached scouts learning from camping out doors without adults, but his methods were extremely hands on to shape the scouts to his idealistic Boy Scout. Frankly, he was dangerous and I believe was eventually driven out out of the program. Barry

I have not experienced with any of those HA's. Always wanted to, but they never made the list. However, I am big on going places where the scouts can experience the local people and culture, independently if possible. I have frequented all those locations with my kids, so I have a little bit of a feel of where I would feel safe with scouts. Bahamas is a beautiful place and the people are friendly. But, like St. Thomas, tourism drives the culture and that leads to a lot of in-your-face marketing for your dollars. It's pretty safe, but I wouldn't let the scouts go out on their own, And the constant atmosphere of seeking your money can wearing. I believe it has the highest crime of the three choices. I'm sure the outfitters at HA there can advise the best places to stay and enjoy the local culture safely. As I said, St. Thomas is also tourist driven, but there is more of a diverse population that gives it a more international feel. The shopping in St. Thomas is less intense, and the town is old and interesting. The history is also interesting if you go on a tour. But, to get away from the hustle and bustle of tourist marketing, we like to go to St. Johns for a day on the beach. St. Johns is a small island only a short ferry ride away . I believe the beaches there are fine white sand surrounded by jungle. They are some of the most beautiful beaches in the Caribbean. Snorkeling is ok, but the beauty of the area and large beaches all worth it. The beaches haven't been over built with tourist marketing stuff, but still have good facilities for showers and food. After play time, the small town has several small restaurants that server good burgers and sea food. But, they are small tourist driven places that fill quickly, so I'm not sure how well they handle a large group. I would feel very safe in St. Johns with scouts. Don't miss the ferry going back. Key West, is worth a one day visit because the town is fun to tour. It is the safest of the three, but I believe adults need to keep track of the scouts because parts of KW has bit of a bohemian atmosphere. The history there is very interesting and worth learning. I believe it was the richest city in the U.S. until the early 1920's. The snorkeling there is good, but the beaches are just so so compared to the other choices. It's a fun place to visit for one day. I don't know how the Seabase programs rate, and I think that is very important (most important). So, you have to balance those reviews with the locations and the cost of getting to those locations. You are going to have a great time. Barry

Please sir, I want more.

Volunteers are just regular people with regular skills, quirks and bad habits. One of my ideas to reduce Webelos dropouts included using the UCs. I approached the District commissioner (a friend) about my idea and he loved it. But, he said he needed more UCs to accomplish my needs. I asked how many and he said eleven would do it. I handed him a list 3 days later of a eleven volunteers. He never called them. He is a really good guy and a hard working UC commissioner, but he is not a team leader and the idea of managing that many adults terrified him. So, I left him alone to do what he was comfortable doing. Sadly, we have to work with what we got. Just have to keep trying. Folks can tell sincerity (authenticity) and will respond if they can. Barry

Well, I don't know how many, but a few of us reached out many times. In fact, I was recruited to both district and council level positions to push new programs for my ideas. Of course district was ready to get rid of me after a while because I just wouldn't shut up. I blame that on my immaturity, but to be fair, they did asked me back later to develop the new adult training program. I was even invited to be the District Commissioner (my dream job). But that was after I retired as a scouter, so I declined as a promise to my wife. Council and district both took risks recruiting me or my ideas and made many changes as a result of my reaching out. But while the professionals higher than council patiently listened, I never felt my message was received. I was invited on the BSA forum that was created for gathering suggestions to develop the new NYLT issued in 2000. All popular ideas discussed on the forum were ignored. While there is some frustration here, I can't imagine anyone ignoring an opportunity to have a discussion with a BSA professional. Let me say though,, after working at the district and council levels and talking to hundreds of scouters, I can say that 95% of the reaching out is just whining about unit problems that would come under adult relations. Very few discussions actually proposed solutions that would help multiple units. Maybe that is why I was so successful. I don't know. Barry

I did not say that. I found his post strange and out of context and said that.

Yes, and a worthy effort. I hope it works. Or a correction has to be made. Hopefully, not at the expense of the rest of the group.

What, a two hour break to do what? Change a mind? I'm disappointed by how this thread has been moderated. Rare are the discussions today about ideas and experiences for developing better adult skills to aid working with the Scouts. And this is a scouting forum. We finally have a worthy discussion that could leaders provide some tools to adult leaders for helping them with their Scouts, and it gets derailed by a single member who is openly rooting for the demise of the BSA. It wasn't so long ago the moderators disciplined me for using the word "ignorance" in it's correct form. One member, who also had a reputation for being contentious, was ignorant of the word "ignorance" complained and I was taken to the wood shed. Contentious?. Read the first post on this subject and explain how this discussion could be continuous? The only way this discussion could become continuous is by someone taking the subject off of it's rails and send it off in the weeds. And it's not like this is a divided subject with several different views based on political or pop cultural ideals. One angry member is turning several scouting discussions into personal opportunities of disparaging rants at the community of members who are simply here to become better scouters. Which means it's not continuous, it's just one persons venomous spewing pulling the rest of the list into the mud. I have a lot of respect for the challenging and difficult task of moderating fairly, but this thread is an example that if moderators don't calm the tone of members who obviously misdirect discussions into their personal black holes, no subject is safe. Well except one, I look forward holding him accountable in the Patrol Method forum. I realize there is a fine line to letting discussions take rabbit trails and holding the discussion to the subject, but there isn't a divide among members on this discussion. There is one unhappy member driving the thread for his personal agenda. Barry

You and other parents take your kids to a highly politicized Pro-Life rally where adults call everybody names at these rallies all over the United Stand and you think the bias is because you're Catholics? You portray yourself as an activist who is using the youth to help push your cause. Something doesn't add up here. Barry

You are arguing with agreement. Good for you. Barry

Agreed, five layers of leadership have little or nothing to do with the leadership on the bottom layer. In fact, the lack of leadership guidance from the five layers is more of the complaint from new BSA leaders. But, the BSA is structured to give COs and units their own independence to operate Leadership and Leadership Development within the given BSA structure. It's up to the COs and unit leaders to seek out training and guidance within and outside of the organization. Failure to perform is on the individuals in the unit, not the other four layers. While I don't care for some of the program structure, I certainly don't blame or credit the BSA on my leadership skills. The article in this discussion is pointed toward the individual leader at any level. Nothing prevents each individual from using guidelines from the article to grow and become a better performing leader. I do have another view of a person's motivation to be authentic. I believe some leaders do strive to be authentic when it's not in their nature. My observation is that developing oneself to be an authentic leader requires their natural character to be authentic, or to develop the natural character along with their leadership. Either both develop, or neither, because how can someone be an authentic leader if their life habits are not authentic. In fact, developing character through the habits of leadership is what the Scouting program is all about. We discuss Servant Leader a lot, but in truth the best servant leaders come from a servant lifestyle. I believe the same goes with being authentic. The adults in our troop believed that working on a servant lifestyle naturally led into servant leadership. I'm not convinced that a person can be an authentic leader if they aren't somewhat authentic in the rest of their life. Barry

The discussion has been misdirected (hijacked?) toward silliness when posters find themselves defending against absolutes of good leadership or character. I have watched and participated in enough discussions here to know who has integrity with their posts contributions. Authenticity and integrity are more a measure of principles, not the right or wrong of one decision or idealism. Barry

Yes, but there is a difference between the purpose of leadership and role modeling in a youth organization. Your examples are a bit extreme in the context of the day to day scouts activities intended to develop long range goals. Of course leaders should make choices bases on the what is best for the group. But, sometimes what is best isn't what is right in building a foundation of habits for total development; like character. The uniform is a very basic, but powerful example of what is best and what is right. If the role model doesn't like the chosen dress for the activity, nothing has to be said, their non direct choice will have a bearing on how the group will consider discipline of making choices. As a leader, uniformity of decisions as a group may start with personal example as a role model. Authenticity in my mind is action (leadership) with humility. Sometimes the leader makes a wrong decision. Humility maintains group trust. Prideful excuses create doubt that the leader is less concerned about the group than himself. Barry

As much as we talk about Scout run and Patrol Method, adults still have a lot of influence on the personality of the program. We were developing our New Scout ASM to replace me in a couple of years. During a quiet walk on one campout, I asked him what stood out to him about the troop. He said even though the adults are nearly out of sight of the scouts the whole weekend, their character is almost identical to the adults. I hadn’t realized that until he said it. Over the years I started comparing the personality of the scouts to their adult leaders. It’s doesn’t take long to see it and it is interesting to watch. Almost humorous. And sadly, the character of some adults is not up to our standards. You are right, reflections are important. But, I believe if the goal or expectation is clear, the reflection will be clear when a wrong choice is made. The Scout Law are directives for serving others. You came from a troop where serving others is the culture of the program. When you joined a troop where serving self was the culture, reflection was obvious and hurtful. I was often approached for advice on finding a new SM for their troop. I advised taking a close look at their candidates character. Same goes for the families of new scouts looking for a troop. Barry

Good stuff. The challenge for adults influencing leadership in youth is taking what is learned and experienced, and applying it into actions. What I learned: -leadership doesn’t really appear until most of the team actually desires real goal. Most troops fail because Patrols don’t have true goals that require them to come together. And 3 or 4 Little goals is too many in my experience, even at work. 1 or 2 Real goals provides plenty environment for leadership development. We once took the new scouts to an indoors laser-tag center for a bonding exercise. Indoor laser-tag sessions are short and very fast. So, success requires real group coordination. I observed (and learned) that the common goal to win each session pulled out willing leaders (“Real”) and willing followers together. In fact, the teams that didn’t know each other well did better organizing because their wasn’t the pride of trying to keep up with friends. The real leader had but one goal, the same goal the followers had. The followers Knew their limitations and wanted a leader that they could trust to get them there. And that all happened in a matter of seconds. I remember the surprise of one scout as the group he was giving a plan accepted his direction so willingly. He was authenticity selling his plan to win was strong and obvious. He wasn’t trying to be the top dog, he just had plan to win. And the group of scouts who didn’t know each an hour before won several sessions. Pretty cool to watch. I found that High Adventure treks also pull out the real (Authentic) leaders because the activity is generally mentally and physically exhausting. Exhaustion seems to drive out good and bad authentic behavior, so authentic leadership becomes obvious. True growth requires struggle or pain for motivation. I once watched the quietest shyest 16 year old scout become the the leader among a group of popular Eagle scouts because he knew how to move forward in the difficult very rainy week on a Canadian canoe trip. Even the adults found themselves waiting for this scouts direction. -The other lesson I learned that I wish other (all) adults would take and trust is that general behavior (leadership in this case) development is the result of observing, not lectures or discussions. Troops that use (rely) on the actions of role models for development are typically the strongest youth run programs. You can see a general leadership attitude from the oldest down to first year scouts. This is where scouts develop “conformity” between effective non effective leaders. And, this is also where adults struggle because their instinct is to rescue non effective leaders. They don’t allow differences of behavior styles to develop conformity of effective styles, thus the patrol and troop as a whole struggle to mature with the adults implementation of mediocrity. What I found very interesting about observed leadership growth is the scouts recognize it and will push less mature scouts into positions where they will gain more growth. They instinctively keep behavior growth dynamic. Importantly, scouts (vast majority) who aren’t natural leaders, but find themselves in positions of responsibility, will naturally use the leadership skills they have been observing over the years. I even recall how this happened to me when I elected president of a club at Oklahoma State. And, I believe this is why the shy scout stood out among his Eagle friends. The shy scout was a visitor of the Eagle Scouts troop. He was a close school mate, but came from a different troop. The best leadership development in a scouting program doesn’t come from proactive leadership development activities, the leadership development comes from the passive process of repeated observations of behavior. Just from observing others during their activities, scouts learn trust what behavior is acceptable and what is not. It should go without saying that troops that use role modeling for growth aren’t just good leadership troops, but also well disciplined. Great discussion. Barry

We will have to agree to disagree. You're correlating scout-run to high-adventure. Most Troops that are scout-run aren't less scout run after they become experienced with high adventure. Scout run is principle philosophy that isn't going to change with the same set of adults. Barry

"Most" troops hesitate to plan their own High Adventure because the don't know how. I recommend troops use and outfitter once to learn the ropes and plan the next adventure on their own. Or, call council and ask them if they know a Scouter who will lead and teach a High Adventure. We once had a Ventruring Crew that would lead and teach troops the skills for high adventure. Barry

Because his kids aren’t allowed in classes yet, my son is learning how to make creative videos to give his 10th graders assignments. He is doing Harry Potter characters this month. He was telling me how much fun he is having being creative. I told him now he understands why I had so much fun being a Cub Master. Cub Scout age kids don’t care about politics, political correctness and so forth. They just like a stories of adventure, fun, and humor. I made a new one each meeting. I invited the parents of different ethnics, races and cultures to help plan them. I made sure the stories were interesting and had a lot of participation for both scouts and parents to wear them out. Same ideas went behind my Scoutmaster minutes; they had to be under 2 minutes long, interesting, funny, or adventurous. Humor never failed. Kids will enjoy face painting or anything like that if you make a great story. I had a few Native American stories that were too generic to offend anyone. You will know if you’re going the right direction when the scouts aren’t talking to their neighbor. And if they do, don’t blame them, just do it better next time. That’s how I learned 2 minutes is max for troop age scouts. Have Fun being creative. Barry