Eagledad

>>"Can" and "Should" are probably the key words in your two questions.

>>This is after having been asked by the Pack Leadership to take over for the Webelos, which I declined on the advice given to me by EagleDad.

Hi All I'm with OGE here. You know, the BOR has been blurry concept ever since they took it from the scouts way back when. I've seen the "R" word (retest) make adults run in fear of their lives. I've also heard the question "What was your favorite part of the XXX merit badge?" asked a hundred times at EBORs and I think it's just about as safe a question as one could ask in this environment. If the idea of the BOR is taking a sample of the Scouts experience to check on the program, well maybe this is a flag. I might check with the MB couselor. Hopefully it is just a nervous scout or a bad memory and there is some good advice on that as well. Barry

>>I don't think a boy can be a real effective green bar leader, if he hasn't attended JLT.

Hi All I thought I answered this question on the other thread, but sometimes I wonder around without really getting to the point. We have two scheduled JLTs; The first JLT is a one-time course required for any scout who want to qualify to be on the PLC. This JLT basically; -teaches working as a team, -teaches a few basic leadership skills like communication and delegatio -introduces each scout to the Patrol Leaders Handbook. The first JLT is similar to the BSA JLT course except we add more reviews of leadership skills and PL Handbook. The second JLT is given just after the election and is required for all scouts on PLC. This JLT is short (couple hours) and specific to the PLC; -The PLC set goals for the troop. -Each individual youth leader sets gaols for his position. -Each scout reviews his position responsibilities. -Each scout learns and reviews enough skills with their advisor to get through the first couple of weeks. The second JLT is similar to the part of the BSA JLT where the SM reviews position responsibilities with each scout except that our scouts review with their advisors. The more experienced scouts dont get bored with repeating the 2nd JLT because it is short and basically to the point only teaching skills they need to know to start successfully in their leadership position. Hope that explains it better. Barry

Hi All I have to agree with KS. I've told the story before of the 17 year old life scout who transfered into our troop from another state. He came from a troop where the adults did everything for the scouts. They told the scouts when and where to earn MBs at their prearranged MB classes. The adults held all the scouts advancement and MB cards fearing the scouts would loose them. These adults even help set up their Eagle project and guided the scouts every step of the way. While this scout loved our troop and even became a local hero by saving the life of a drouning baby, he crashed to his knees when he learned that he is responsible for completing his Eagle workbook and setting up his SM Confrence and EBOR. He was a smart enough young man to ask for help and figure it all out, but not without a few sleepless nights. I asked myself many times to which troop set that scout up more for failure, his that did everything for him to make sure he got Eagle. Or ours that pushed every scout to take responsibility for any and all of their successes. The scout in question here has an opportunity to learn a lot from this experience. As well as the adults. I wonder.... Good post KS. Barry

Hey there brother, is that a hint of orange I see in your post? Barry OSU Class of 82 Flying Aggie President 1980

>> I have attended many summer camps during scouting, but never for merit badges, only for adventures, hiking ect...

Hi All Every SM will eventually have to deal with a scout, or scouts playing with fire, or knives or swinging a stave. I will start by saying we pretty much handled these situations the way EagleInKy explained in his post. Man that guy has been in a groove lately. Anyway I dont see discipline as the issue unless you knew the scout acted to spite the rules. Its an accountability of actions issue. In fact, as you practice more of this Scouting Stuff, you will realize most of what adults do is hold scouts accountable to their actions so they develop the habit of choosing right over choosing wrong. This is important because you want to create an environment where all the scouts hold each other accountable. Whenever a scout was caught doing something like this, I tended to get the scout to think of a way to teach the whole troop or at least the PLC about the dangers and safety of his actions. You are then turning his negative action into positive action. You dont have to yell or get angry. In a quiet tone you ask him to admit the harm of his actions so that you know that he knew better. Sometimes they dont. Then guide him to do an action of accountability so they understand that there are reprocussions to all actions. Our PLC got in the habit of making the scouts write letters to their parents and Patrols. Also you want to encourage all the scouts to police themselves. You will always have that one kid who likes to experiment with fire, but its the other scouts who you trust to stop him. In fact, if I caught a scout doing something wrong while other scouts around did nothing to stop him, usually the other scouts were first to clearly feel my disappointment before I worked with the offending scout. It takes a little while before scouts realize that you want them to take responsibility to stop bad behavoir. Usually they are waiting for the adult. Good discussion. Barry

>>Does he believe, in his heart, that he has performed his best in the various aspects of scouting

>>American society has over-emphasized self esteem at the expense of self motiviation. The question for BSA is: should it change how merit badges are incorporated into the program?

>>The success of the merit badge program is entirely dependent on the quality of the counselors.

Hi All >>A list of counselors was posted, with the MBs they were counseling, and the scouts (not the parents) had to call the counselor to sign up.

I don't understand how your program works, but could you instead plan the same patrol activities as required in the badges without making it a badge activity. Then the scouts could sign off the requirements if the choose. This is how I did my Webelos program. My scouts were getting pins like crazy and most of the time they didn't even know how they earned them. Barry

Hi All We have eight very nice patrol boxes that we quit using about seven years ago. It's funny, the adults had them made with love and care. Seven years ago we decided I wanted to move to a backpacking troop because that forces more personal responsibility on scouts. The PLC and adult decided to experiment and ask the patrols to not use patrol boxes every other campout. After the first campout without the boxes, the patrols siad good by to the boxes and never looked back. Our patrols put all their patrol gear in a milk crate. That includes a two burner backpacking stove, lightweight rainfly, cooking gear, rope and I can't remember the rest. I agree light weight gear does have a cost, so over a couple of years we slowly switched stoves and rainflys as fund raisers helped us make the switch. It's the same gear we use on our high adventure treks like Philmont and Northern Frontier. As for the patrol boxes, we gave four away to help a new troop, and the patrols can use the other four anytime the want, which they never have. Our guys say the milk crates are much simpler. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All >>I don't like this arrangement but it is the way it is at the District Level.

Happy Scouting All Everyone is giving great advice. I only want to add one quiet unassuming demand that works quite well for both the parents and their son in this age group; "Please go sit with your parents the rest of the meeting". Everyone gets the point and the behavoir will change after the first couple of incidents if you hold your ground. Barry

OK, I stepped way out of bounds. I got the CC from your first post I guess. As for the rest, I dont understand we got to a verdict from the NJ Supreme Court, or whatever. Your last few posts also confused me. It sounds like you want the adults to be included with the scouts, provided all is fair, but have justified in your mind good arguments against it. Is that right? I have watched too many programs cut themselves short from the fears of what could happen. I know of several Cub Packs that dont do any kind of competitions like Pinewood Derby or games because they fear boys will get hurt. I know of a Troop that allows only a maximum of two scouts per car during travel because they fear wrecks that that would kill all riders. This troop averages 40 scouts a campout. What is interesting is that you guys werent breaking any rules or policy that I can see. Everything that has followed was caused by the fear of one adult with authority. OK, I can understand how emotions can get the better of us making our minds run wild even visualizing rulings from the Supreme Court. Im just suggesting keeping things in context. This is just a simple Boy Scout troop playing a simple game of football. I am sure everyone involve are good decent folks. I wonder, if it were you asking the Troop to stop football because you were afraid the apparent violence of the game could influence boys in the wrong way, would the troop have reacted the same? Scouting is hard enough as it is without adding our own fears. I would suggest an effort to keep this simple. Use the official guidelines recommended from training and try to not read too much more into those guidelines than intended. Then suggest the adults, as a group, make a decision taking the monkey off the CCs back. I think that is important because the adults need to function from one general idea as a team. Maybe you have that now, I cant tell from your post. But what I gathered from you at first was there was an overreaction by one or two members of your troop from a complex interpretation of the guidelines. Do you still feel that is the situation? As for the Scouts, well you are who you are, fears and all. They need to understand that they are suppose to work within the limits of the Scout Law, Scout Oath and the adults wisdom. What the scouts have going for them is Wisdom can change as the adults learn and grow. Sorry I stepped in this, too much time on my hands I guess. I will sit back and watch for the conclusion. Hey have a great Christmas week. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi All My opinion is your CC is the main problem. What is the DE going to do? The White Stag paragraph is intended to protect the adult incase physical contact has some appearance of being inappropriate. Football has certain boundaries where contact is appropriate, even in touch football. But even with that, who cares! Because using White Stag to enforce a BSA policy is a stretch and not official. Your unit adults need to use and interpret the G2SS because that is what the BSA expects you to use. I love the White Stag program but the program is being used out of context here with your Troop. Most leaders have never even heard of White Stag. Personally I would tell the DE, and the Council if you like, that your unit has lost some trust in this DE and you will look at future interpretations from him with some skepticism. DE s arent always right and they dont always represent the Council or BSA in the best manner. Our District has encouraged the council to move more than one DE on to the next District. Your CC is the person who needs to be convinced. Then you guys can get back to the fun of this Scouting Stuff. Have a great day. Barry

Hi Laurie What you are actually talking about is the best suggestion for breaking pack tradition. The only policy the BSA suggests is to recognize each scout as soon as possible. I've always thought it a little funny that we point that policy out on one hand and then hold back AOLs until all the scouts have earned the badge or until a month of year traditionally done by the pack. I had several scouts earn their AOL several months before they left the pack. I would first for just a moment, ignore polices and traditions and ask yourself as the CM what is best here for the scout? Then how do you achieve that? I understand Scoutnuts statement to not let any scout leave without recognition and he is right most of the time. But many times those kinds of suggestions are made from what adults want, not what the scouts wants or is the right for him. Give the scout, your son, what will give him the most honor in his eyes, and use the pack as the tool to honor him that way. Our pack went the way of EagleinKy in general, but I got really good at creating good ceremonies on the fly when these kinds of things just happen. Tell your son we send our congratulations. I highly suggest that if your pack has a tradition of holding scouts upside down while you present them with the AOL and a symbolic arrow, just keep it to yourself. It will never fly here. Good luck to you in your scouting future because I know you love this scouting stuff. Barry

Hi Eagleinky Actually now its two hours followed by a lock in for only the PLC. The first hour is spent giving a quick explanation of the Troop leadership chart staring from the Chartering Representative all the way down to the Patrol positions. The SPL explains and discusses the expectations of each PLC leadership position and finishes with his set of goals for the troop. The SM usually spends just a few minutes talking about Aims and Methods making sure that both the adults and scouts understand that the adults responsibility are the aims, the scouts are responsible for the methods. Each scout spends the second hour with his advisor who is usually an adult but sometimes an older scout. Together they discuss their personal ideas for the position and set goals for the next six months. There is usually some training in that hour to help the scout get started. When our Troop was young, we followed the second hour with a PLC meeting to help the new guys get a feel for the meeting. But our Troop has a PLC meeting every week now and most or our PLC has experience in the meeting. We have always followed that JLT with pizza and PLC Lock in. Believe it or not, the lock in is a great team bonding experience. Some times leaders in the PLC need further training like the Quartermasters, ASPLs and Patrol leaders. So they wouldset up another training time in the future While I was SM, many of the PLC had been to six or seven of these JLTs, so you can understand the importance of a quick two hours that gets to the point. The very experienced scouts only want to hear what they need for their job. Usually they do most of the training in the first hour. Hope that helps. Barry

>>I have read this article with great interest and I am somewhat perplexed and amazed that anyone can argue that BSA should not be allowed in a "public" school without first attacking the government itself.

>>I imagine that after a culture is established and you have several 15-16-17 year old youth leaders demonstrating the way, JLTC probably has less of an impact

Hi All >>but allowing a few adult leaders to 'ride along' and in the process retrain them or start most of them re-thinking (at least) what the real program is all about!

>>Let me ask you, how good would a youth group have to be for you to turn a blind eye to government agencies running these youth groups if anyone could join as long as they weren't Jewish?