Eagledad

>>out of respect to people with differing (and especially minority) viewpoints>I also don't think it's enough to give the minority Scout his turn to offer a prayer invoking his own deity--you're still emphasizing his position as a minority

>>A person who feels that he or she cannot offer a nonsectarian prayer should probably decline to pray publicly in such a situation.

>>While religious people believe that their morality is based in divine revelation, different religions have different revelations and different moralities. (Plus most religions have changed their positions on various moral issues over the years.) So this argument is pretty hollow for BSA.>BSA doe NOT define "God" as the Judeo-Christian-Islamic deity known respectively as Yahweh, Jehovah, and Allah.

Hi all Boy, everyone has given great wisdom in their replies. Six month old, wow! I think it can be done, but Im with Semper, CM takes a lot of time to do the job right and can easily take the fun out of the job. Committee Chair (CC)? I agree, if you dont have a good CC, your work will double because the title of Cub MASTER naturally pulls pack business matters to your phone. Rewarding, I have to say it was a blast, but it took me a couple to really get it right. How do you get parents involved? Keep the meetings fun and short. Anything longer than an hour is too long. My meetings of 80 scouts were usually about 50 minutes long when I got good at it. And everyone should be smiling or laughing all the time. If the boys start talking to each other, that part of the meeting is too boring and needs to change. If you do it and manage to have fun with it, it will be a highlight of your life. Have a great week. Barry

Happy Monday All I guess after all these years, I have lots of mommy stories. But as n adult growing up from what the scouts could teach me, I learned that moms are the same as dads, they only want the best for their sons. They just have a funny way of doing it. Moms are just different until they see the program work. For me, I used more experience to teach about boy run to improve my skills of explaining each part of the program and how it made their son better. I found that if I couldn't explain the value of a part of the program, I researched until I could, or I take that part out of the program. One mom learn to trust and love the program so much that when she moved to another state, she made the SM of their new troop call me to learn the boy run program. It's hard to explain feelings of pride and humilty crashing together in that microsecond. Thank goodness the other SM was a really nice guy. Buy I really wrote this reply to brag about a mommy that helped a lot of boys by touching my heart. She was the one who taught me how to do this scouting stuff. She changed my life I guess. I'm one of those adults that you can still find the heal marks where they dragged me into this program. Through a slight of hand, I becaame the CM of broken Cub Pack of 90 scouts, eight new adult leaders, and one experienced leadere. Debbie, the experienced leader was a Webelos Leader with lots of years of wisdom she had gained through many years of Girls Scouts and Boy Scouts. She showed me how to keep the program focused on the boys, to make sure that character counts and that little boys aren't really boys, but men without experience. I can't even imagine how things would have been different had she not given me that push start. I was blessed by that mommy. Barry

>>No, it requires THE GOVERNMENT to accept everybody. Public schools are agents of the government. >Would you prefer giving public schools the authority to create, say, whites-only football teams (even though non-whites are also taxed to pay for the school)? Refuse admission to Jews (even though Jews are also taxed to pay for the school)?

>>And if you don't think anyone has ever suggested that certain races or creeds are better at things like chess or science, you need to get out more.>This isn't restricting freedom of choice, it's insuring that government agencies like public schools don't unlawfully discriminate.

>>And since Fischer successfully argued in court that his clubs can discriminate, the only legal recourse is to have all public schools stop their Fischer club franchises.

Hi All >>And therein lies the lesson. The proper time to rise depends on whatever is needed for that day.

>>then head to the head....

>>Barry's most recent post says it better than I can, but basically those with religion--even differing religions--can find common ground where the one without it doesn't share that. Barry, if I've got you wrong, please correct me.

Hi KS If I appeared to sound that my way is the only way, I humbly apologize to you and everyone else. As much as I try to improve, I just cant seem to type what I want to say. I didnt see this as a "agree to disagree" kind of discussion, but instead several Master Scouters expressing their method of scouting. You have proven yourself as a wonderful scouter on this forum a long time ago. Between you, Semper, Beav, EagleInKy, Mark and a couple others, there have been some really good ideals being passed around here lately. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>but eagledad's open bigotry kind of got to me.

>>I do believe in the values of Scouting. I do not believe that those values include religious discrimination

Hi all >>I don't see what's gained by doing that, though...it seems like one of several techniques that gives the same result in the end.

>>I wouldn't be coy about this.

>>Today, I would rather work with a group with a shared vision than work on any project where I stand alone with those that only hang on.

Hi all Without having to repeat everything you said EagleInKy, you write with a lot of wisdom. Our troop allowed and encouraged scouts to take turns to pray, preach and teach their personal faith. We did this because we feel a growth comes from learning about each others faith, not ignoring them. But while this policy was encouraged, the scouts were usually happy with Troop Chaplin selected at the election. We adults have to work hard to resist putting restrictions on these boys to protect them from our fears, or to encourage them toward our selfish desires. Barry

>>She needed to be tolerant of our point of view. In my mind, when it became time for her to be tolerant of our beliefs, she could not be.

Hi all >>For pete's sake, if you think some counselor's cutting corners, stop assigning them to your Scouts. Enough with the unnecessary rules.

Boy do I know how you feel. Is this causing any kind of a problem for the boys? Some hills just aren't worth dieing on. By the way, what does he say when the CC hands out a free Committee Member patch to all her adults? (wink)(wink) Barry

>>Isnt this just a watered down version of everyones wins?

>>I told the SM to simply open another room in the meeting place, and shuffle them into it, period.

>> had a buddy CM who accidentally caught his headdress on fire with the flame though

I had a few, but probably my best show stopper was the Lighted Neckerchief Ceremony. It starts with the lights turn off except for a candle and possibly a spotlight highlighting the CM and Webelos. The CM tells the story about while hiking one day in New Mexico, he/she happens to meet a Native American Chief who gives the CM a jar of magic water. The chief tells that CM that truth is reveled when the water turns into flames. The CM shows the audience the jar of the magic water (50% acetone, 50% water). Then takes the Webelos neckerchief and soaks it in the water. The CM then attaches two corners of the neckerchief to the end of a stave or broomstick and holds it over the lighted candle. Flames leap about four feet in the air for a few seconds and then quickly die away leaving the neckerchief undamaged (from the water) thus proving the scout is worthy to continue on the trail of scouting. He then crosses the bridge to meet the SM and get a new neckerchief. The trick is the acetone burns off quickly while the water protects the neckerchief. If you want to consider this ceremony, I will find my notes on the story and all the materials needed. I would suggest you first practice this in your back yard to get a feel for the flames because they can be startling the first time, which is what you want for the rest of the audience. Practice how to get the neckerchief from the jar to the broomstick without igniting it by the candle. I laid a fireproof mat on the floor and had two adults standing by in the dark each holding a fire extinguisher. Its not really hazardous because the acetone evaporates quickly, but a scout is always prepared. I kept the scouts on the opposite side of me while holding the stave far out on the other side of me. I was at least 20 feet from the audience. I also use my own neckerchiefs so I didnt have to give the Webelos theirs back wet. I accumulated many as a CM. Barry