Eagledad

>>That shows a lack of initiative on their part and that requirement is currently not completed IMO. Kids today get way too much spoon fed to them.

>>So, is this a "First Class Mill"...?

>>Nowadays many boys feel it is their right to be an Eagle and by doing substandard work in the process.

>>but since humans are pretty lazy, is there a large burden for the senior members of the patrol? I would guess that younger members would rather be taught tasks by the older members rather than learning on their own from their books.

Hi All >>By eliminating patrol cooking in summer camp you are essentially cutting the leadership eperience of the elected leaders by at least and maybe more then half.

>> Haha, ok, bring it on! Im ready.

Hi All >>HAVE your boys set goals,

>> Eagledad, I wasn't blaming anybody,

>>we are looking at (tweaking the system) this coming year only having one Troop Guide per NSP but having the ASPL in charge of the Troop Guides act as a 'floater'

>>My son went last summer at twelve and was in no way mature enough for it but his SM recommended he go,

>>To make this relevant to this thread, a troop with really good retention might produce a lot of Eagles, without being a mill at all.

>>Eagledad, I don't see a difference in our view of guides...our troop tends to have a good range of ages (currently 8 of 55 active boys are 17-18 years old).

Every Troop program is limited by the fears of adults. If I had the courage you appear to have, consider the idea of talking with the adults. The committee meeting possibly. You need to convience the adults that you want to learn how to handle the troop program. THen ask them what is the worst that can happen? And be prepared to reply every situation they throw at you. Be truthful and humble. "I don't know but we will learn together" might be your best reply. But at least you are presenting your case of taking on more. And, from the very begining help them understand that you consider this is a team effort with the PLC and adults. Not just the PLC, not just the adults because the whole idea of learning from your experiences is to have a person of wisdom waiting to guide your questions and struggles. They need to see that you know things can and will go wrong, but you guys just want to take the risk. Does that sound like it could work? I could be way off. But you need to find a way of getting the adults to allow you to step into the unknown. Then see what happens from there. Don't confront them as adults, instead make a proposal for all of you. Barry

>>Sounds to me like you decide which 13yr old should attend even if the SM has signed him up. Am I reading that right?

>>If the SM thinks he has a 12 yr old that is mature enough and can handle it, why not send him.

>>I have seen an interesting trend that maybe others can verify...our best troop guides seem to be the better SPL later in their scout careers...and a good Summer Camp Staff experience seems to bode well also...any thoughts?

Hi all We migrated from white gas to propane, and on to the Coleman gas canisters. Several years back the Venture Patrols wanted a stove that fit their high adventure theme. They ended up testing two Coleman duel burner Exponent backpacking stoves and loved love them ($90.00 at Campmor). They are sturdy because they are duel burner and have a wider footprint than single burner stoves. Light enough for backpacking and virtually indestructible. The troop ended up liking them so much that we replaced all our propane stoves with them. We have use them exclusively on all Troop outtings for over six years. They have been through rain, snow and new scouts, dropped, thrown, stepped on, kicked and dropped in the lake and they still work as new. We have used them from the Boundary Waters to 12000 feet of Colorado Mountains. They have worked at Zero degrees temps in Kansas, which is as far North as Oklahomans are willing to go in winter. The only disadvantage is the cost of fuel is probably twice that of white gas. But once the scouts get use to them and the heat they put out, each Patrol usually uses less than one bottle each weekend (less than $3.00). And we only use two and half bottles per stove on 10 days of Philmont. Just one more suggestion to add to the discussion. Barry

Hi All >>At these ages 12 - 17, age is not a very good indicator of the maturity level of the boys. Come to think of it, I don't think age is ever a very good maturity indicator.

>>Why not train them younger so they can understand what is expected of a junior leader so they can come into a position know what a leader is supposed to do

>>I would say to the ASPL that his idea has merit, but that because the patrol method is part of Scouting, we must find solutions that do not take away the responsibilities of the patrol.

Hi All In my opinion you are doing it right. Proper fitting personal equipment is the biggest difference. You can have bad shoes, socks and packs and still have a fun week of canoeing and portaging. But a bad pair of boots or socks or a bad fitting or heavy backpack makes for a long painful trip at Philmont. Barry

>>Now if anyone has any idea on how we could speed up the process of conversion, I would love to hear as well.

Hi All Anarchist writes a very good post. I have also been involved in turning units around and I agree pretty much with everything except the 9 to 10 years. My experience is more five years to turn a program around because thats what it takes to replace 95% of your scouts. I do agree that it takes more than five years to entrench your program, whatever that program is. This is why the suggestion of training a lot of adults all at once is a good start toward the change. I am watching a very entrench program of 150 scouts in our district changing because their new class of newly trained adults are applying a lot of pressure on the old leadership. Onehour is right about older scouts. I have never seen scouts 14 or older except dramatic changes in program. I learned its best to leave them working the program they are use too, or you will loose them. You have to use the younger scouts to develop the new program. Good discussion Barry

Good reply Semper. Also, I found some Packs call up Webelos and send him across the bridge without mentioning the troop they are joining. It can be stressful for the SMs if they aren't sure they know the scouts joining their troop. So find and meet your Webelos before the ceremony. I've seen this happen a few times because many times the adult who recruited the scouts isn't the one at crossover. I pretty much let our scouts do most of the work with me just shaking the scouts hand. Barry

>>You might want to look first to the new adults to help you on this as they will be the most open to change.