Eagledad

>>Assimilating into the other patrols is usually not a good idea.

>>We're just embarking on our first year of using it "by the book" and I hope it works as planned!

I agree with everything Semper is saying, but I think most of our replies are based off the assumption of a well-planned and wel-run meeting. If the meeting is just repeating what everyone already knows, or is run so poorly that nothing gets done, then you have a different problem. The meeting first has to have a purpose where the scouts see a value. What do your meeting agendas include? Barry

Hi All I agree with Dug that the job has to one that scouts want. In our Troop, the quartermaster is the second of three steps toward SPL. While none of the steps are required, scouts are expected to have experience as a PL, Quartermaster, ASPL and then SPL. There is a purpose to the madness; The Patrol Leader is the first step in learning to control the group, delegating and planning at the small group level. Quartermaster is viewed as learning how to teach and delegate at a large group level as the Troop Quartermaster is expected to teach Patrol Quartermasters how to do their jobs at the Patrol level, and delegate the Patrols to managing and loading and unloading the trailers. The ASPL is responsibile for all activity planning. By the time a scout gets to SPL, he is very experienced with the leadership skills of the troop. In our Troop, the Quartermaster is a large position of trust and responsibility with property. He is issued his own set of keys to the storeroom and the trailer. He is responsible for helping the tow vehicle driver backup, hookup and he makes sure the trailer is loaded properly so that of the equipment is balanced between the wheels of the towing vehicle and trailer. The Quartermaster is expected to lock and unlock the storeroom and trailer, so he has to be reliable. The SPL in our Troop unlocks and locks the church for Troop meetings. He is the first in and last out. If the SPL doesnt make the meeting, he better find someone to do the job for him. The Quartermaster is training for the responsibility. Nobody gets into the storeroom or trailer without first talking with the Quartermaster. The SM and CC also have keys, but that is only for emergencies. The CC and I had and understanding that even in an emergency, we first call the Quartermaster. When it comes to loading and unloading the trailer and storeroom, the adults get out of the way and the Quartermaster is in charge. He delegates task to his Patrol Quartermasters who are in charge of the Patrols at that time and delegate duties to the patrol members. The idea is while the Patrol Leaders are working with the SPL on car seating assignments or camp assignments, the quartermasters are responsible for the equipment. The adults wait with the SM to find out who is assigned to their vehicle. When it works, it works very well. The Quartermaster job is very demanding, we had two when our troop had 90 scouts. They work pretty hard, but we have the opposite problem with our Quartermaster position in that once a scout gets the job, many times they dont want to leave. Imagine that if an adult needs to get in the trailer or storeroom, they have to go to the Quartermaster for permission and a key. Most or our Troop Quartermaster ages start about 14. I think the best way to make your Quartermaster position attractive to scouts is to give them the responsibilities of an adult. Once the expectations and requirements of the job are understood, I dont think you will have trouble. We sure dont. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>My time to really get to know these Lads (In a troop of 90 Scouts at times I never really got to know a Lad well until he became a PL) It was my time to make these Lads feel special.A round of soda pop or candy bars at the business meeting went a very long way.It was my time to listen to them and find out how things were really going.

Pass along important imformation that they will regret not getting. Can be anything like a reward for everyone wearing full uniform at the next meeting to bring a swimsuit to the next meeting because you are going swimming. I'm sure others can give ideas as well. This could also be a sign that they aren't getting anything important from the meetings and your agenda might needs some changes. Barry

Hi All >>Might be a bit involved, but what this then does is we can have trained leaders the weekend after they are elected. We do this every six months, and we see it really helps our guys.

HI Vrooman I don't have experience with a single patrol, but I think would try to approach it in a way that would least upset the program when another patrol needs to be added. I would work the Patrol side of the program, not the troop side because the basic job of the SPL is coordinating and teaching the Patrol Leaders. You will find the PL responsibilities are pretty much the same as the SPL, just on a smaller scale. Once you get the next patrol, you can suggest adding someone to help coordinate multiple Patrol leaders (SPL). Hey acco, I'm not much for adult patrols being a role model for the Scout patrols, but we had an older scout as the adult Patrol Leader. It works very well because the adults respect his advice and guidence and the new adults follow him like glue trying to learn the program. That left the SM to his own duties with the SPL. And the older scout grew up a lot as well. Barry

>>I can usually borrow a scout book from a younger scout if I need one.>I still use the handbook as a packing list to pack my backpack.

>>but it happened. JLTC asking for input online is another first.

>>The BDU thing is a nice idea, but that'll run atleast $200 a uniform.

>> Well, I can see not taking your handbook once you've reached First Class

>>It would appear that National should once again consider the Leadership Corps by examining how it works in the troops that have kept it going all these years.

Good Friday All I'm with Fscouter. Just about everything a scout needs in the program is in that book. I know this is the wrong place to say it, but one big reason we like BDUs was so the scouts could put the books in their pockets. Qur scouts quickly learned that when they asked me a question about scouting, it was likekly they were going to be asked to look at their book first. They even made some skits about it. I didn't realize how much our scouts took this to heart until we went on a 10 mile Philmont shakedown hike. Even though we had done backpacking equipment reviews, some of the scouts still brought their Scout Book. Nobody knows better that a SM how often boys loose or leave their books in the weather. I am sure I have at least a dozen without names in one of my boxes of scouting stuff. But, if they don't learn the lesson of taking responsibility of their personal items now, then when? As for loosing the advancement records, we teach our scouts to run the advancement records part of the book through a copier every now and then. I know Troopmaster is a good backup, but I just wanted the scouts to also learn how to back up their records. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Badgerface? There's a picture. It seems you guys already know your problems and are really looking for a way to change bad habits. Actually a more common problem than most would think. Since your adults want to work with you, ask them to get your troop a copy of Troop Program Features. They are loaded with "fun" theme ideas that can acheive the adults goal with the first year scouts as well as kick your program back into the fun gear. The meeting agenda examples are easy to learn and apply. They will help your first meeting. Then get copys of the Patrol leaders Handbook for the patrol leaders and a copy of the SPL Handbook for the SPL and SM. Then make sure the SPL and SM work together using the handbooks to get the patrol method back on track. Then ask your adults to go to Scoutmaster Specific training where that course does a pretty good job of explaining the program. If nothing else, hopefully it will help them understand the real purpose of the First Class First year thing. I think those suggestions are the quickest way of getting your program back on the fun track. I know others will have some great suggestions as well. Oh, the patrol campout idea is a great idea too. Barry

You're right, Fair is Fair Note to National. If you haven't already read it, I love the choices you give us in socks, especially the Thorlo hiking socks. They feel like a thousand little fingers massaging my feet. OK, this is embarrassing, but last I heard, the Irving address is not the correct address to the BSA Supply division. The Supply Division is east, Tennessee or Kentucky? That was the address for which I was told to send my ideas and suggestions. Does anyone have that address close by? Alright lets huddle up and gather some ideas here. I will start with shorts. I want two pairs, one for wearing to meetings, nothing fancy. And a pair for camping, hiking and just looking cool around all the female rangers at Philmont. OK, the one suggestion is from my son. BW, any suggestions to shorts? This is your chance because supply folks might be looking. Barry

Hi All >>He seems to be saying that it is futile to complain about that here.>If somebody wants to identify an e-mail or mailing address of somebody else who is specifically interested in receiving such comments, that would be helpful.

Hi All Sounds to me like you are doing everything right. Maybe the expectations are too much for this one scout. Its easy to have average expectations that most scouts can meet. But not all scouts are average, which makes our job all the more interesting. The objective of the program is to find some kind of success experience to give him a positive stepping-stone toward his next opportunity. I had a very wise SM once tell me that instead of trying to keep frustratingly push a scout toward the same objective, ask him how he thinks he is doing and just listen. One way or another, get him to brag about himself so you can see just where he views himself. Then you may have better information to plan the next step. You would be amazed how much you can learn. Take him for a walk on that next SM Conference and give it a try. As for taking him off the responsibility, I have never had to encourage this of a scout who at least gave an effort. Now if the scout is performing badly because he doesnt want to be there, well then you have to teach him the nobility of getting out of a bad situation before he takes others with him. I would suggest waiting a year for JLTC. JLTC is an advanced training course for senior scout responsibilities like SPL, ASPL and Quartermaster. If he is struggling with the basics of PL, he will be left in the dust by the material and bored to death for a week with a bunch of strangers who dont want to be held back by his attitude. I would give him a year to mature a little more and send a scout who has earned the experience. Those are few things of the top of my head. One thing is for sure; this is a learning experience that will help you in the future. I dont know why learning has to be so painful sometimes, but it must be a God thing. One thing is for sure, you sound like the perfect person this scout needs right now. Maybe that is God thing too. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>Also the words, by the BOOK dont always mean what we think it means.

I'm not so sure this is a dicussion about one person's ego, forum protocal, or proper forum content. Lets start with the idea that compaining about uniforms has no value here. I will give the same example again. In the mid 90's National change from thigh high socks to ankle high and there was a huge outrage. Huge! A couple years later National comes back and adds thigh high socks to the choices. I say choices, up to that point, there was only one choice. Now like BW, I had little interest in the discussions, but I stood back and watched on ScoutsL. I heard that National watched the discussion on the forums as well. One reason is the forums kind of centralized the complaints. Today, without even the complainers, National has added more choices with the present popular low cut socks and Therlo Hiking socks. Is the forum changing the way it does business in this high tech world. I think so. If you ask the right person at National, they will tell you the forums had a great deal of influence. Actually most companies from cars to Cruise companings watch the forums now to see trends. They watch the complainers as well as the complements. THey want to know how to make there product better. When National was developing the new NYLT course, I got a call from the development team for my suggestion on one part of the program. They learned about my experience from the forums. Was I complaining, I don't know. But they were watching. Maybe this is really about one mans opinion of what we should discuss. A forum is usually a place where people of the same interest come to discuss their interest. Whether it is to seek help to a problem, or just a place to sip coffee and enjoy being with friends of the same interest. I have to admint sometime I come here just look for a few friends that seem to make me feel good about scouting no matter what the subject. The scouting forums are also specail to me in that we also live by a code of the Scout Law and Oath. So this forum should be "Safe" and at the very least "Friendly" beause that is our code. If we can't do that here, than are we worthy to lead boys in a program based with role models? Well it may be unfair, but there have been some here I wouldn't allow to role model in our Troop. Is there a specific requirement to what should be discussed on this forum. Not really. But there are subject titles for those of us that have more interest in certain areas of scouting than others. Be it Troops, Cubs, Patrol Methods, training or a non scouting issues, there is a place we are welcome to go. Which makes it easy for us to stay out of those areas that we have little interest, like uniforms. Is there a protocol to what should be discussed within the topics. As far as I've seen, no. But there is the pesky code again. I guess the question should be, is it fair to be belittled, insulted, be a victom of sarcasm or even have our program insulted? Well that is what I see will be tested the next few days. I say it's not, but you know I've learn here on Scouter.com that there isn't really a lot we can do about it. In fact some find entertainment from it. I like to go to different forums that match my interest. It's a good way to learn a lot about that subject quickly. There is always someone willing to help. I've also found that lately, there is always someone who use the forum more as a way to feel good about themself. There aren't in it so much to help others, but to make themself important to the discussion whether the add to the topic or not. They need the attention and feed on it for their own importance. There is one in every forum and they are usually the ones who have to have the last word. They feel above the group in that they can say anything because above all else, their word must be heard. Not much we can do, our technology allows such people to say in type what they would not dare to say face to face. And if they were willing to say it face to face, it would probably be only once. So I say, blast the uniform because I'm waiting for National to give us BDU type pants with pockets that hold, well hold a lot. I don't really mind the shirts, but I would like to have those collarless shirts back I had as a youth. As for those who want to have the last word, well I think this will be a real test for our patience. But, I hope we do this better and don't loose as many scouters on the forum as we did a few months ago. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The truth is there will always be a percentage of complainers no matter what the BSA does in the next uniform change. BW

Hi All My interpretation has been that its up to the Counselor how the scout satisfactory completes each requirement. Some counselors allow performance of a requirement before the scout even signed up for the badge. Others want to witness everything. How that counselor is satisfied is up to them. As a counselor, I always discussed with the scout at our first my minimum expectations for each requirement. That way there are no surprises later on. If the scout doesnt like the way a particular counselor wants to work, he can certainly look for another one. Where this can get tricky is finishing incomplete badges like those from summer camp. The scout needs to find a local counselor to finish his badge, but since that counselor will give the final signature, they may want some evidence of completing the other requirements. While counselors are not supposed to retest, they do have the right for proof that the other requirements were performed. That can be difficult to verify from summer camps staffs, so the scout may choose a re-demonstrate the requirement as the easiest route. I found in most cases, the counselor just asks the scout a few questions. Sometimes we look at this as scouts trying to earn badges with minimal effort. But my older son once took a class in a subject he was very interested in. The teacher only did the very minimum to sign off the badge and my son didnt learn a thing. He threw away the signed MB card and looked for another counselor. He never went back to a MB college. Barry

Hi all I'm not surprised that EagleInKy has done this. Visiting other units was one of my favorite ticket items in Wood Badge. I think its a great idea and everyone will learn a lot. I agree with EagleInky that nothing beats seeing it in person. Barry

>>Barry - "By the way, by the end of our JLTC course, the scouts personally write over 18 agendas. " Just curious. What types of agendas do they prepare? 18 per scout?

Yes. First I think the number one biggest problem Ive seen with PLC meetings, and all meetings in fact, are not teaching the scouts how to use an agenda. An agenda helps the SPL see on paper what he wants to happen in the meeting. If the meeting gets a little out of control or the SPL looses track, which WILL happen, he only has to look at the agenda to get back on track. Such a simple thing, but most troops dont do it. So first go to the Scout shop and get you and your SPL a SPL Handbook. Use the books together. There is a good agenda in the book. If cost is and issue, give me a call. By the way, by the end of our JLTC course, the scouts personally write over 18 agendas. The other part of your question I think is where the adults fit. If your scouts are very young like eleven or twelve, they should still have the responsibility of leading the whole meeting. But I personally think the meetings should be short because their age maturity isnt really ready for a long meeting. One suggestion to help is our Troop does a 30-minute meeting before each Troop meeting. That breaks up the big one-month meetings the National suggests. It has worked very well for us even with 17-year-old SPLs. But that is a personal preference. Also, that gives you four times more opportunities to teach and for them to practice. Even with young scouts, the adults must design the meeting as if 17 year olds ran it. What will happen is as the scouts mature, they need to be given higher expectations of performance. If your meeting is designed for a 12 year old, they will out grow the meeting quickly. Instead you want a format that a 12 year old leads but still use when he is 17. Use the SPL Handbook to plan out the meeting. It will look something like; Reading of the minutes, officer reports or Patrol leader reports, old business, new business and SM minute. Help the SPL learn what goes in each place. Again, not too much for the young guys, but enough they get their business done in reasonable time for their maturity. The agenda should be challenging for all ages, but as they learn to master it, add more to it. I found 14 to 15 years of ages is when they handle a full program agenda. Until they get to that maturity, the SM must learn how to fill in the blanks. That is help fill in enough of the meeting gaps so enough gets accomplished that the boys see how the meeting sets the agenda for the rest of the program. The SM should never take over for the SPL in such a way that he takes the SPLs leadership away. Instead, ask the SPL for permission to add to the present subject. In that way, you have not reduced his leadership because you had to take over; you instead gave him honor of his leadership by asking for permission on the floor. You will have to help him a lot at first because boys just arent use to this much control of a meeting. But as he gains confidence, four meetings, he will need less of your help. I always left the room for a few minutes to give him full control. At first they loss control of the meetings, but we would then come up with ideas of how to control the group. This is why I like weekly meetings. You get a lot more time to teach and practice, both for the adults and the scouts. Another problem every troop runs into is getting ideas. I found that young scouts seem to hold back with ideas, so the SM needs to pop a few of his own and then teach the art of asking a scout what he thinks of that idea, and what idea he has. Several of my SPL caught on to this quickly and started using the same trick. Once one scout starts blurting ideas, usually other follow. Dont shut any ideas down, but instead encourage the scouts habit of writing them down on the board. Then eventually let them see the good ideas over the bad one. This is a lot. Am I going in the right direction? Does this help? The adult side of this is a lot of fun once you get the hang of it. I love this scouting stuff. Barry