Eagledad

I'm not so sure this is a dicussion about one person's ego, forum protocal, or proper forum content. Lets start with the idea that compaining about uniforms has no value here. I will give the same example again. In the mid 90's National change from thigh high socks to ankle high and there was a huge outrage. Huge! A couple years later National comes back and adds thigh high socks to the choices. I say choices, up to that point, there was only one choice. Now like BW, I had little interest in the discussions, but I stood back and watched on ScoutsL. I heard that National watched the discussion on the forums as well. One reason is the forums kind of centralized the complaints. Today, without even the complainers, National has added more choices with the present popular low cut socks and Therlo Hiking socks. Is the forum changing the way it does business in this high tech world. I think so. If you ask the right person at National, they will tell you the forums had a great deal of influence. Actually most companies from cars to Cruise companings watch the forums now to see trends. They watch the complainers as well as the complements. THey want to know how to make there product better. When National was developing the new NYLT course, I got a call from the development team for my suggestion on one part of the program. They learned about my experience from the forums. Was I complaining, I don't know. But they were watching. Maybe this is really about one mans opinion of what we should discuss. A forum is usually a place where people of the same interest come to discuss their interest. Whether it is to seek help to a problem, or just a place to sip coffee and enjoy being with friends of the same interest. I have to admint sometime I come here just look for a few friends that seem to make me feel good about scouting no matter what the subject. The scouting forums are also specail to me in that we also live by a code of the Scout Law and Oath. So this forum should be "Safe" and at the very least "Friendly" beause that is our code. If we can't do that here, than are we worthy to lead boys in a program based with role models? Well it may be unfair, but there have been some here I wouldn't allow to role model in our Troop. Is there a specific requirement to what should be discussed on this forum. Not really. But there are subject titles for those of us that have more interest in certain areas of scouting than others. Be it Troops, Cubs, Patrol Methods, training or a non scouting issues, there is a place we are welcome to go. Which makes it easy for us to stay out of those areas that we have little interest, like uniforms. Is there a protocol to what should be discussed within the topics. As far as I've seen, no. But there is the pesky code again. I guess the question should be, is it fair to be belittled, insulted, be a victom of sarcasm or even have our program insulted? Well that is what I see will be tested the next few days. I say it's not, but you know I've learn here on Scouter.com that there isn't really a lot we can do about it. In fact some find entertainment from it. I like to go to different forums that match my interest. It's a good way to learn a lot about that subject quickly. There is always someone willing to help. I've also found that lately, there is always someone who use the forum more as a way to feel good about themself. There aren't in it so much to help others, but to make themself important to the discussion whether the add to the topic or not. They need the attention and feed on it for their own importance. There is one in every forum and they are usually the ones who have to have the last word. They feel above the group in that they can say anything because above all else, their word must be heard. Not much we can do, our technology allows such people to say in type what they would not dare to say face to face. And if they were willing to say it face to face, it would probably be only once. So I say, blast the uniform because I'm waiting for National to give us BDU type pants with pockets that hold, well hold a lot. I don't really mind the shirts, but I would like to have those collarless shirts back I had as a youth. As for those who want to have the last word, well I think this will be a real test for our patience. But, I hope we do this better and don't loose as many scouters on the forum as we did a few months ago. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

>>The truth is there will always be a percentage of complainers no matter what the BSA does in the next uniform change. BW

Hi All My interpretation has been that its up to the Counselor how the scout satisfactory completes each requirement. Some counselors allow performance of a requirement before the scout even signed up for the badge. Others want to witness everything. How that counselor is satisfied is up to them. As a counselor, I always discussed with the scout at our first my minimum expectations for each requirement. That way there are no surprises later on. If the scout doesnt like the way a particular counselor wants to work, he can certainly look for another one. Where this can get tricky is finishing incomplete badges like those from summer camp. The scout needs to find a local counselor to finish his badge, but since that counselor will give the final signature, they may want some evidence of completing the other requirements. While counselors are not supposed to retest, they do have the right for proof that the other requirements were performed. That can be difficult to verify from summer camps staffs, so the scout may choose a re-demonstrate the requirement as the easiest route. I found in most cases, the counselor just asks the scout a few questions. Sometimes we look at this as scouts trying to earn badges with minimal effort. But my older son once took a class in a subject he was very interested in. The teacher only did the very minimum to sign off the badge and my son didnt learn a thing. He threw away the signed MB card and looked for another counselor. He never went back to a MB college. Barry

Hi all I'm not surprised that EagleInKy has done this. Visiting other units was one of my favorite ticket items in Wood Badge. I think its a great idea and everyone will learn a lot. I agree with EagleInky that nothing beats seeing it in person. Barry

>>Barry - "By the way, by the end of our JLTC course, the scouts personally write over 18 agendas. " Just curious. What types of agendas do they prepare? 18 per scout?

Yes. First I think the number one biggest problem Ive seen with PLC meetings, and all meetings in fact, are not teaching the scouts how to use an agenda. An agenda helps the SPL see on paper what he wants to happen in the meeting. If the meeting gets a little out of control or the SPL looses track, which WILL happen, he only has to look at the agenda to get back on track. Such a simple thing, but most troops dont do it. So first go to the Scout shop and get you and your SPL a SPL Handbook. Use the books together. There is a good agenda in the book. If cost is and issue, give me a call. By the way, by the end of our JLTC course, the scouts personally write over 18 agendas. The other part of your question I think is where the adults fit. If your scouts are very young like eleven or twelve, they should still have the responsibility of leading the whole meeting. But I personally think the meetings should be short because their age maturity isnt really ready for a long meeting. One suggestion to help is our Troop does a 30-minute meeting before each Troop meeting. That breaks up the big one-month meetings the National suggests. It has worked very well for us even with 17-year-old SPLs. But that is a personal preference. Also, that gives you four times more opportunities to teach and for them to practice. Even with young scouts, the adults must design the meeting as if 17 year olds ran it. What will happen is as the scouts mature, they need to be given higher expectations of performance. If your meeting is designed for a 12 year old, they will out grow the meeting quickly. Instead you want a format that a 12 year old leads but still use when he is 17. Use the SPL Handbook to plan out the meeting. It will look something like; Reading of the minutes, officer reports or Patrol leader reports, old business, new business and SM minute. Help the SPL learn what goes in each place. Again, not too much for the young guys, but enough they get their business done in reasonable time for their maturity. The agenda should be challenging for all ages, but as they learn to master it, add more to it. I found 14 to 15 years of ages is when they handle a full program agenda. Until they get to that maturity, the SM must learn how to fill in the blanks. That is help fill in enough of the meeting gaps so enough gets accomplished that the boys see how the meeting sets the agenda for the rest of the program. The SM should never take over for the SPL in such a way that he takes the SPLs leadership away. Instead, ask the SPL for permission to add to the present subject. In that way, you have not reduced his leadership because you had to take over; you instead gave him honor of his leadership by asking for permission on the floor. You will have to help him a lot at first because boys just arent use to this much control of a meeting. But as he gains confidence, four meetings, he will need less of your help. I always left the room for a few minutes to give him full control. At first they loss control of the meetings, but we would then come up with ideas of how to control the group. This is why I like weekly meetings. You get a lot more time to teach and practice, both for the adults and the scouts. Another problem every troop runs into is getting ideas. I found that young scouts seem to hold back with ideas, so the SM needs to pop a few of his own and then teach the art of asking a scout what he thinks of that idea, and what idea he has. Several of my SPL caught on to this quickly and started using the same trick. Once one scout starts blurting ideas, usually other follow. Dont shut any ideas down, but instead encourage the scouts habit of writing them down on the board. Then eventually let them see the good ideas over the bad one. This is a lot. Am I going in the right direction? Does this help? The adult side of this is a lot of fun once you get the hang of it. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

Nldscout is right about the list, but I found at least in our District that "common sense" was mainly used to giving a scout a waiver. We had the one scout afraid of water, but I had several mental retarded scouts that I had to get advice on as well. Aquaphobia, so that is what its called. Our scout couldnt even look at a glass water. In fact he was so bad that camping was very restrictive. And forget about rain. You see a lot of interesting things in a troop. Scoutingagain, I would call the camp Director and explain your scouts situation. I have always had good responses from them. Usually the First Class requirement is the easy way of requiring a minimum level of scout skills. If that is the case, maybe you guys can work something out where the scout can prove he passed all but the swimming requirements for First Class. Barry

Hi All I think this is a case where the bad news dominates over good news. Our unit reported physical abuse and it was handled immediately. The adult in question also worked on staff at a summer camp and that council was contacted immediately as well. I wonder how many positive situations like ours are never reported as good news for the BSA. Barry

Hi All We had a scout with a severe neurosis to water. He was terrified with a glass of water. Our District Commissioner took care of the swimming requirements with no problems at all. Barry

>>and your (Eagledad's) backhand slap at our (my?)'great' programs of older boys is unappreciated and unkind and I will not dignify with further comment.

HI All I'm late on this one, but I agree with Dug in just about every thing he says except that they bend the rules too much. Other than that, you can search and find post where I've said basically the same things. Adult run BORs don't fit in a boy run program. They are basically intended for is quality control of the adults. I also agree with Dug that Scouts aren't likely to open up to adult strangers more than any other adults other than their parents. So why don't the adults review the adult parents. That is probably the most likely adults the boy will open up. At least the part where the SM's program is performing. As for the scary examples some of you guys brought up, I am surprised by these worst case examples from adults who brag about programs with a great older scout program. Whey would great scouts be so bad at BORs? And lets just assume they do a bad job, just because the scouts run the BOR doesn't mean the adults aren't suppose to guide the scouts in their performance any less than the rest of the program. If the Patrol Leader did a really bad job, would you sugest stopping the Patrol Method? Your job is suppose to teach fairness and nobility to these young men through all the program. The BOR would be a great place for that. The issue here is the question; is Dug's program doing the Scouts justise by completely ignoring the rules even if their change is better for the program? I'm one that beleives troops must be given some room to deliver the promise. But for me in this case, they are going too far. I would like to see a better approach to their concern so that the conversation doesn't lead to braking the rules, but instead the real value of a adult run BORs. Good conversation guys Barry

Hi all Good subject, but as I read the replys, I can't help but feel we are mixed up here. Does the Eagle make the program, or does the program make the Eagle? I think if we could tour the program EagleInKy is talking about, we would find the answer there. I believe a program must appeal and challenge all ages, even the adults. The hardest part of that is the 14 to 17 year old range because that is when a boy becomes a man. Most (90%) of troops still hold those guys down to the boy side of the program even while their body and brain wants to be a man. I remember once one of our older scouts was angry at his dad because the dad wanted his son to find a different job that allowed him to attend the whole Troop meeting. Then the son hit the nail on the head. Talking to his dad, he said, "no adult would think twice if you showed up to a meeting late because of your work. But you and those same adults want me to change my job. It is not enough that I give 45 minutes of my time?". Where do we stand with that scout? A troop that averages Eagles at 16 likely has a very mature older boy program because more than half of those scouts were 17 when they got Eagle. But even more important, I'll bet that for most of them, the Eagle was not the highlight of their scouting Experience. I know that is the case in our Troop. Maybe the discussion should turn to "what would make a 17 year old scout want to stay with the troop?" Sometimes I really enjoy reading your post KS. Good job. Barry

Hi All Check with the OA and see what they have that you can borrow, and/or ask them for their source as well. Once you start asking the question, somebody will have the answers. BArry

>>Our policy hasnt cut dads (an moms) from being a part of our program and it really has made more then a few kids become much more independant then they would have even if Dad is in the area.

>>JD- We try to urge the parents not to attend the first two trips for a few obvious reasons.>advocate for the 'twit' a bit? As a troop, we would rather see NSP parents stay home for the first few camps...as mentioned in other posts they can become a crutch for some boys.

Hi All Lets see, try some nonscout skills themes like automechanics, rocketry, cinematography,Iron Chef cooking and shooting sports. Also find new themes for the old skills like building a fort for water balloon battles (knots and lashings). Got to a local park for map and compas. Two packs of Webelos visited us during rocketry and I know that is why they joined our troop. These are past themes off the top of my head. I'm out of time. Oh, our guys manage to have a hot rod show on the automechanics theme and I think a dozen hot rods showed up. Pretty cool. I love this scouting stuff. Barry

The answer to your first question is no, this is not common in the BSA. Im not sure how to advise you because what I think you may really be asking is how badly do you want your son to be in Boy Scouts. Yes, you can join another troop, but statistics and odds are that son wont be happy and will quit. Im curious, ignoring this problem for a moment, how good do you think this program is for your son? Is it the kind of program you want you son to experience? I think the first step is going on the campout with the other mother. Find out just how bad it really is. I wish your husband could go as well because it would very interesting to see how he treats the two of you together. Then go to the CC and ask him what is the deal. My problem with the SM is he uses antidotes or experiences to explain his position. Its as if he doesnt have the time, or the ability, to teach moms the program. But in my opinion, if he cant teach a mom about scouting, then just how good is he with the boys. You see, at least 50% of good scoutmastering is working with the adults. If he cant teach you about the scouting methods, what makes him think he can teach your son? I wonder how he can explain himself. Another thing here is that while we look at the Troop as a program for our sons, it is really a program of families. If this guy doesnt understand that or just ignores it, I wonder where else he has conflicts. Go on the campout first and learn how bad the problem really is. The answer might be more obvious then. Please keep us abreast on this; I think we all can learn from your experience. Barry

>>That shows a lack of initiative on their part and that requirement is currently not completed IMO. Kids today get way too much spoon fed to them.

>>So, is this a "First Class Mill"...?

>>Nowadays many boys feel it is their right to be an Eagle and by doing substandard work in the process.

>>but since humans are pretty lazy, is there a large burden for the senior members of the patrol? I would guess that younger members would rather be taught tasks by the older members rather than learning on their own from their books.

Hi All >>By eliminating patrol cooking in summer camp you are essentially cutting the leadership eperience of the elected leaders by at least and maybe more then half.

>> Haha, ok, bring it on! Im ready.

Hi All >>HAVE your boys set goals,

>> Eagledad, I wasn't blaming anybody,